Baroness Thatcher has died

[Butts]

Why? she to all intents and purposes did, her and her party government have always been against the working class, and not much has changed in the Tory party attitude from 79 til 2013. I hold Maggie and her Tory party then and now in utter contempt and will til the Day I die. No one will be throwing parties for me or buying records in remembrance of their hatred for me (well I certainly hope not lol). Her legacy is what the working class have to deal with from the ConDems. The stereotyping, the grinding down. Luckily this time not much industry left to destroy, just a few people who Atos deam fit for work who genuinly can't but some things really never change when the Tory party is involved.

I think we need to establish what you define as "working class" before this argument can progress any further.

For example is a Train Driver earning 40-50K working class ? and a Teacher perhaps earning 30K Middle Class ?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I think we need to establish what you define as "working class" before this argument can progress any further.

For example is a Train Driver earning 40-50K working class ? and a Teacher perhaps earning 30K Middle Class ?

As I am not a Train Driver I couldn't comment, I am a guard and my basic is 25k and most Train Drivers are not in the 40-50k bracket either.

Stop trying to divert the conversation. In Maggies/Majors day Railway personnel were on a HELL of a lot less and had to work all the hours god sends to make a decent crust. The wage rises have come in long since Maggie left and has no bearing on this thread

 

[Butts]

As I am not a Train Driver I couldn't comment, I am a guard and my basic is 25k and most Train Drivers are not in the 40-50k bracket either

Okay, do you consider yourself to be working class and on what basis ?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Okay, do you consider yourself to be working class and on what basis ?

I am the main wage earner, My darling wife struggles due to a serious back problem. I work damn hard to pay the mortgage and make sure my kids are healthy and happy. I have no full sky package or New car and I just about manage to pay for a decent holiday each year. I am as common as muck and damn proud of it.

 

[Butts]

I am the main wage earner, My darling wife struggles due to a serious back problem. I work damn hard to pay the mortgage and make sure my kids are healthy and happy. I have no full sky package or New car and I just about manage to pay for a decent holiday each year. I am as common as muck and damn proud of it.

I think you undervalue yourself , you are earning twice the minimum wage and providing for your family.

Can I just ask you to be a little less blinkered with regard to any individual party. They all do good and bad things and to suggest The Conservative Party is on a mission to destroy the working class (whatever that is) is frankly unsustainable.

In a similar fashion The Labour Party (pre Blair) was not out to destroy the rich either.

Look at the facts not the rhetoric

 

[Railsigns]

Had it not been for the Honourable lady, the economic situation would have been worse.

B*ll*cks. It was deregulation of the markets by the likes of Thatcher and Reagan that ultimately led to the current dire economic situation.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I think you undervalue yourself , you are earning twice the minimum wage and providing for your family.

Can I just ask you to be a little less blinkered with regard to any individual party. They all do good and bad things and to suggest The Conservative Party is on a mission to destroy the working class (whatever that is) is frankly unsustainable.

In a similar fashion The Labour Party (pre Blair) was not out to destroy the rich either.

Look at the facts not the rhetoric

I certainly am not blinkered, I chose who I vote for through my experiences and whom I believe suits my needs (like most voters). The conservative party have always been for the affluent part of our country (or deemed affluent) and every time they come into power its the working/lower classes that get stereotyped and hammered. Obviously some people take advantage but they are in a massive minority. you read every week about the poverty caused by a lot of these Tory policies. The latest one is the Bedroom Tax. Great Idea in theory. In practice you need places for people to go before people can downsize/upsize. Sadly as numerous council houses were bought cheaply through right to buy (which I actually feel was an excellent Idea) and not replaced by affordable housing there is no where for people to go.

 

[bnm]

A round of applause for Glenda Jackson. Speaking her mind and refusing to be cowed by the massed ranks of braying tories opposite. Also well done to Speaker John Bercow for pointing out that Ms Jackson had said nothing un-parliamentary.

 

[Harlesden]

I think we need to establish what you define as "working class" before this argument can progress any further.

For example is a Train Driver earning 40-50K working class ? and a Teacher perhaps earning 30K Middle Class ?

I assumed the purpose of this thread was to mark the passing of a former Prime Minister. I was not an admirer of Baroness Thatcher, but I am a little perplexed by the argument going on and the disrespect shown to the deceased in some posts.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

B*ll*cks. It was deregulation of the markets by the likes of Thatcher and Reagan that ultimately led to the current dire economic situation.

Although you may hold an opinion conclusive to observe an alternative view to how a majority of society feels during this current period, may I cast your mind back to the situation of the country prior to the honourable lady gaining office.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I assumed the purpose of this thread was to mark the passing of a former Prime Minister. I was not an admirer of Baroness Thatcher, but I am a little perplexed by the argument going on and the disrespect shown to the deceased in some posts.

This woman was either loved and treasured or vilified. Some wounds run way to deep. It shows what legacy this woman left when there is still so much anger directed towards her. When she was PM she made her choices as in death and in life the wounds are still very much open for a hell of a lot of people
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although you may hold an opinion conclusive to observe an alternative view to how a majority of society feels during this current period, may I cast your mind back to the situation of the country prior to the honourable lady gaining office.

Honourable? still trying to grasp that, calling her Honourable is an insult to many thousands of people (and yes I know why the term is used)

 

[SS4]

Although you may hold an opinion conclusive to observe an alternative view to how a majority of society feels during this current period, may I cast your mind back to the situation of the country prior to the honourable lady gaining office.

Oh no you don't. There is not one shred of evidence to suggest one way or the other how the majority of society feels during this current period. The media has censored itself not to say anything bad about anyone who died ever. Sadly this has the side effect of elevating their status to demi-God who did no wrong and I'm sure even her supporters can admit she's done wrong.

Who said there was no such thing as society anyway? (yes, I know that's terribly out of context - hence the wink)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A least the flag over Town Hall will fly proud, at full mast

edit: I see some councillors declined to take part in a minute's silence in her memory. I wonder if they'll be vilified for doing so? Not by me

 

[Oswyntail]

..... Her legacy is what the working class have to deal with from the ConDems. The stereotyping, the grinding down.

Anyone spot the irony here?

 

[bb21]

Stop trying to divert the conversation. In Maggies/Majors day Railway personnel were on a HELL of a lot less and had to work all the hours god sends to make a decent crust. The wage rises have come in long since Maggie left and has no bearing on this thread

So are you saying that despite all the ills of privatisation, it also brought about good changes, such as increases in wages and improved working conditions?

B*ll*cks. It was deregulation of the markets by the likes of Thatcher and Reagan that ultimately led to the current dire economic situation.

20 years after she left the office and you pin the blame for all that happened during that period on her? Hugely simplistic assumptions don't you think? If anything, Blair's government played a much bigger part in causing the current meltdown.

The conservative party have always been for the affluent part of our country (or deemed affluent) and every time they come into power its the working/lower classes that get stereotyped and hammered.

Is there any political party that is about the opposite? Ideologies aside, I don't see how Labour did anything different in their time in office.

Sadly this has the side effect of elevating their status to demi-God who did no wrong and I'm sure even her supporters can admit she's done wrong.

This is what I don't really understand. No one is claiming that she is perfect or a godsend to the nation. What other people are asking is that the good things she did be recognised which seems to be lost by many in a rush to condemn her for her mistakes.

edit: I see some councillors declined to take part in a minute's silence in her memory. I wonder if they'll be vilified for doing so? Not by me

Of course they are entitled to their own opinions, but the way this is conveyed is very undiplomatic imo. (And before anyone asks, diplomacy is important.)

 

[jb]

Oh no you don't. There is not one shred of evidence to suggest one way or the other how the majority of society feels during this current period.

Apart from an opinion poll conducted by an eminently credible polling company that was commissioned by a left-leaning quality newspaper.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Anyone spot the irony here?

Ironic maybe, but still truthful
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Originally Posted by ANorthernGuard
Stop trying to divert the conversation. In Maggies/Majors day Railway personnel were on a HELL of a lot less and had to work all the hours god sends to make a decent crust. The wage rises have come in long since Maggie left and has no bearing on this thread

So are you saying that despite all the ills of privatisation, it also brought about good changes, such as increases in wages and improved working conditions? [/QUOTE]

That may have come about anyway, no proof either way, Personaly I feel it would of but not to such a large degree (especially with the Drivers wages)

 

[jon0844]

Apart from an opinion poll conducted by an eminently credible polling company that was commissioned by a left-leaning quality newspaper.

And that she had more votes on her final term than the first and she never actually lost an election.

Yes, the nation clearly hated her!

 

[SS4]

This is what I don't really understand. No one is claiming that she is perfect or a godsend to the nation. What other people are asking is that the good things she did be recognised which seems to be lost by many in a rush to condemn her for her mistakes.

For my part I don't really understand why no mass medium is saying much that was bad about her or her tenure. Is it linked to not speaking ill of the dead? Or is it something more sinister?

There seems to be a link used by those backing her (not on this thread) that speaking ill of her legacy is broadly equivalent of speaking ill of the dead. Perhaps this link exists only in my mind though.

Of course they are entitled to their own opinions, but the way this is conveyed is very undiplomatic imo. (And before anyone asks, diplomacy is important.)

Indeed, although I feel in their case they took the best course of action, heckling the minute's silence would have been much poorer form and attending would have undermined their point.

For what it's worth, I though it was very undiplomatic of Cameron to recall parliament solely/largely for a memorial session (as I understand it) because those who stay away as a political protest are attacked for so-called disrespect.

Apart from an opinion poll conducted by an eminently credible polling company that was commissioned by a left-leaning quality newspaper.

Maybe (although conveniently these are no longer people who didn't understand what life was like under her).
Funny how the Guardian suddenly became quality too. I'm not talking about you personally but something tells me they've gained credence rather quickly from being of a status similar to daily mail of the left.

 

[table38]

So are you saying that despite all the ills of privatisation, it also brought about good changes, such as increases in wages and improved working conditions?

There's an interesting article here which points out that Thatcher actually did more to raise earnings for the poor than either Major's or the second two terms of Blair's governments (although of course that statistic relied on you having a job in the first place)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For my part I don't really understand why no mass medium is saying much that was bad about her or her tenure. Is it linked to not speaking ill of the dead? Or is it something more sinister?

Blimey - you've not been listening to or watching the BBC then

Every item is accompanied by either a former left-winger or just a vox pop of someone saying how terrible Thatcher was.

But this is what the BBC call "balance"

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Blimey - you've not been listening to or watching the BBC then

Every item is accompanied by either a former left-winger or just a vox pop of someone saying how terrible Thatcher was.

But this is what the BBC call "balance"

All of a sudden I like the BBC lol

 

[Ferret]

SS4 - or is it that her legacy has been debated before her death, over and over?

I don't think anyone really expects her mistakes not to be mentioned and for there to be criticism - some criticism will always be aimed at those who make decisions. Tony Blair who for all his faults is often an excellent speaker hits the nail on the head when he says that if you decide then you divide and that is the nature of the job.

Where people have crossed the line is in actually celebrating her death. I mean, are we really that uncivilised as a nation? One of the people doing it on here I believe is a teacher as well - sir, you really ought to know better.

 

[bnm]

And that she had more votes on her final term than the first

However, her share of the popular vote dropped in both 1983 and 1987 versus 1979.

 

[bb21]

This is why I say to anyone who thinks Thatcher did good things for this country, please listen to, and try to relate, to what this man has to say. There are countless others like him who are convinced that Thatcher's government did more harm than good, and having lived in the north myself during her term of office, I agree with him.

While I can't speak for everyone, I certainly understand where he is coming from. We all have different perspectives. Some people suffered more than others because of her, just the same with every other prime minister, only to differing degrees.

She made many mistakes, but saying that she did nothing positive or good is neither objective nor constructive. Whether she did more good than bad or the other way round is open to debate, but completely shooting down everything she did is simply naive.

I was chatting to someone today and they said they wondered if Thatcher had used strikes as an excuse to do what she wanted to do anyway, ie close industries down, rather than confront the issue of closure head on right from the start.

The strikes may well have provided her with an excuse. I don't understand the theory that she actively wanted to close industries down. No leader would do that. What she wanted was for loss-making industries to modernise, and in the process improve efficiencies and become less of a burden on the treasury so that money can be used for other causes. The unions were up in arms about it.

Recalling parliament to eulogise over a former prime minister? What a waste of time. And what of the cost? Will all the MPs and support staff be returning early at no cost to the taxpayer? I very much doubt it. At least there are some MPs who've spoken out against the recall. It's perfectly acceptable, when a former prime minister dies, for parliament to pay tribute. But an extra session at taxpayers expense is a bit much. Parliament wasn't recalled in Easter 2005 for the death of James Callaghan. It wasn't recalled after Edward Heath passed away a few days after it had retired for the summer recess in July 2005. Nor was it recalled after the death of Harold Macmillan on 29th December 1986. All the eulogising could've waited until a parliamentary session when MPs were due to return on Monday 15th April.

I am inclined to agree that it might not have been the best idea recalling parliament, especially when the MPs are due to return shortly anyway.

Oh, and none of those former prime ministers had a taxpayer funded ceremonial funeral either.

My point is that if the government considers having served this country for 11 years a sufficient criteria for a publicly funded ceremonial funeral then so be it. This would equally apply to Tony Blair when his day comes and this is indeed a qualifying criteria.

I don't know, but I do think that politicians, because politics is by its nature partisan, shouldn't be given any special funeral at all.

A war leader at the head of an emergency coalition would be an exception I guess.

A real war that is, not rejoicing over the deaths of retreating Argentinian sailors (yes youngsters, Thatcher celebrated the deaths of others in public too). Churchill clearly saved the nation, which is one of the reasons why cretins claiming this for Thatcher make me want to puke.

I beg to differ that Falklands is not a real war - just ask the soldiers involved in the conflict. Grantedly it is not on the same scale as WW2. Celebrating victory and in the process the death of enemy soldiers is hardly level par with celebrating someone's death during peace times, is it?

No one is saying that Thatcher is comparable with Churchill - chalk and cheese on the whole - but you can't deny that not everyone is a supporter of Churchill, as with every other politician in the world. No doubt he saved the nation with his efforts and for that everyone in this country should be grateful, but that is a completely separate issue.

Are there REAlLY people who think Thatcher privatised the railways?

I sense irony but not quite sure who this is directed at.

Nick Clegg has disgraced those who voted for him once more (is this even news any more?)

While this is generally true, I don't think this necessarily applies here. People who voted for him would have had divided opinions as to what he should do anyway, so whatever he does, he is a disgrace to some. As a member of parliament, he is probably only being diplomatic in doing it so you can hardly read much into it.

The old adage of who ones knows being more important than what one knows still holds true

One that holds true almost everywhere in this world.

 

[DarloRich]

IVO - i notice from your post at #380 that you, like many right wingers, will not even look at the actual physical damage caused to communities or to people. Why is that?

I notice you are unwilling to confront any of the points that I or others have made about the effect of these policies.

Why is that? Is it that personal recollection can not be neatly wrapped up in nice statistical chart to show that what you believe was right? Is it that you dont value personal recollection of the people who were the victims? Is it that you have no personal understanding of the suffering and humiliation wrought by these policies?

Could it be that to consider any of this might force you to acknowledge that people suffer because of what you believe in? Could you be forced to accept that people are still suffering. Could it shake your belief that it was for the best? Might it actually open your eyes to what happened to real people. Not things on page or a spreadsheet but real people.

or is it just easier to think you are right, that people like me and my family and our friends are some kind of scum because we dont agree with you.

I will assume you haven't heard of places like Easington or Hetton or Seaham or Murton. Take a trip there one day and see for yourself what these polices did and are still doing.

 

[Ivo]

I've already said that I've had enough of being in a massively outnumbered argument in which I can never get a single word in without someone launching a tirade on me or one of the other people who is not a staunch left-wing sympathiser.

I know of most places in the country and can even claim to have passed through Easington and Seaham before now. I know they aren't exactly the most well-off places in the country - but neither is the neighbourhood I grew up in (even if Southend as a whole isn't doing too badly). I know what it's like to grow up in a poor area and to be in poverty and if anything have had it worse that most of you claim is the case up north! The difference is that people in my area accept that what Thatcher did was for the benefit of Britain as a whole - and that (most of) what was apparently not for Britain as a whole had already commenced under one of the Governments before her (such as the milk thing under Wilson's Labour Government).

That is all I have to say on the matter and this will almost certainly be my last contribution to this thread. I will say three last things:

(1) I have not responded until now because I have been out all day!
(2) Until this thread came along I had never even heard of this "I'm all right Jack" thing.
(3) When Darlington (the football club) were in serious trouble, I stood in your support. So why is it that now you and I have differing opinions you are basically targeting me simply because I said one thing which is representative of what the bast majority of non-Left people would say?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

But she was, and was worried, but your unions tried talking rather than confrontation. See which industry's workers were better represented by their unions!

.

You seem to forget the 19 one day strikes by LU staff in 1989. Possibly the only major defeat of her regime which was actually instigated by a disaffected and (at the time) lowpaid workforce rather than the unions who came in to it later. Their victory was won by 'holding the financial heart of Britain to ransom'. Thatcher even changed the laws to make those strikes illegal only for the trainstaff to use loopholes to exploit and carry on their action. In the end her friends in the city nudged her in to paying them off as they realised that the settlement was a pittance compared to the amounts they were losing each strike day.

 

[4SRKT]

I
Vote that we just ignore Ivo if he is unprepared to accept the real
Opinions of people who suffered from his politics.

He has made it plain
As
The nose on his face that he couldn't care less about the lives of people in places like
Easington or
Seaham, and refuses to acknowledge that the 'tirade' he objects to is the

Unfortunate consequence of putting his objectionable and
Naive opinions on a public space.
Even now he wants to use the fact that he is from a poor background as a
Means to justify
Political views that insult the
Lives laid waste by the
Odious Thatcher, and directly insult others posters.
Yet this is sadly not an
Exceptional view, as we have seen from the
Dispicable comments of some other

Posters, one of whom went as far as to
Enquire if my family would inform him of my death so he could
Organise a party.
Politically I despise Thatcherism, but also reserve bile for New
Labour. I despair that young people like Ivo see the greed of Thatcher and her ilk as something to
Emulate and those whose lives were ruined a mere collateral damage.

 

[DarloRich]

I've already said that I've had enough of being in a massively outnumbered argument in which I can never get a single word in without someone launching a tirade on me or one of the other people who is not a staunch left-wing sympathiser.

I know of most places in the country and can even claim to have passed through Easington and Seaham before now. I know they aren't exactly the most well-off places in the country - but neither is the neighbourhood I grew up in (even if Southend as a whole isn't doing too badly). I know what it's like to grow up in a poor area and to be in poverty and if anything have had it worse that most of you claim is the case up north! The difference is that people in my area accept that what Thatcher did was for the benefit of Britain as a whole - and that what was apparently not for Britain as a whole had already commenced under one of the Governments before her (such as the milk thing under Wilson's Labour Government).

That is all I have to say on the matter and this will almost certainly be my last contribution to this thread. I will say three last things:

(1) I have not responded until now because I have been out all day!
(2) Until this thread came along I had never even heard of this "I'm all right Jack" thing.
(3) When Darlington (the football club) were in serious trouble, I stood in your support. So why is it that now you and I have differing opinions you are basically targeting me simply because I said one thing which is representative of what the bast majority of non-Left people would say?

So no. You aren't prepared to face the actual physical cost of these policies. Do you even acknowledge the suffering of other people, or is it all for the greater good? Was it, essentially, the fault of the "odd communities" such as mine that were destroyed? Could you ever acknowledge that the policies of Thatcher caused any of the problems? I find it strange right wingers will never do this.

I have no problem with a Thatcher supporter making a serious, well reasoned case for what they perceive to be the long term good of her policies. You have failed to do so. Instead you have trotted out crass, glib and insulting phrases based on next to know understanding of the period or the effects of the policies on real people.

As for having it worse in Southend I very much doubt that. Why do you consider the people of London and the greater south east are generally favorable to Thatcher? It is very easy to see all the changes as being for the greater good when you and yours benefit from the changes.

(mind we can all recall the famous battle of the Southend coking works that was one of the key battle grounds of the miners strike. To see the gates closed was a great day for organised labour! Did the jellied eel salesman come out in support of the miners in the end, i cant remember? )

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Many make much of the state of Britain before Thatcher - 3 day week etc but seem to gloss over the rioting on the streets of this country. The likes of which were never seen before. We were never that far from troops returning from the Falklands to patrol the streets of our own cities. Many just don't realise how disillusoned and disaffected a whole generation of people in parts of this country actually were. While many deride her own party about stabbing her in the back to get rid of her they may well have prevented this country from descending in to civil war.

 

[Ferret]

4SRKT - the thing with greed is that it is one of the very worst traits of human nature, but human nature it is and you are naïve if you think otherwise.

One thing that the Blair years taught me was that it's every man for himself - we live in an imperfect world and as much as many may despise an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude, it does seem to be the one that prevails, and always has done long before Thatchers time or even before politics was even thought of as a concept.