Bad experiences

[Mintona]

But most guards would ignore the fact that feet were on seats, or not even walk through the train. I've seen people smoking on trains before that haven't been told off!

I wouldn't say most. I know some are lazy, and ignore things such as feet on seats, but "most" is a tad unfair.

 

[class 313]

But most guards would ignore the fact that feet were on seats, or not even walk through the train.

Not true, all the guards I've had have told me to get my feet of the seat. If they aren't doing a ticket check why would they walk through the train?

 

[Gizmogle]

Not true, all the guards I've had have told me to get my feet of the seat. If they aren't doing a ticket check why would they walk through the train?

True in my experience. No one gives a toss up here if you have your feet all over the seats.

I think they should walk through the train just to make sure everyone is behaving, the doors aren't being kicked in, windows being etched, etc. Plus they tend to do one ticket check and then hide in the back cab, not checking any tickets from later stations.

 

[class 313]

True in my experience. No one gives a toss up here if you have your feet all over the seats.

I think they should walk through the train just to make sure everyone is behaving, the doors aren't being kicked in, windows being etched, etc. Plus they tend to do one ticket check and then hide in the back cab, not checking any tickets from later stations.

That's just the North in general...

Anyway. No, stop saying hiding. They don't need to come out if they aren't doing a ticket check. But what would t hey do if they see a door being kicked in? Tell them to stop and risk themselves getting kicked in?

 

[Gizmogle]

That's just the North in general...

Anyway. No, stop saying hiding. They don't need to come out if they aren't doing a ticket check. But what would t hey do if they see a door being kicked in? Tell them to stop and risk themselves getting kicked in?

As others have said it is their job to "guard" the train. I completely understand that their safety is priority, but from everything that is being said, it's seeming more and more like the job of a conductor is just one that involves sitting in a cab all day.

And okay, they may not be hiding as such, but it would seem that they often make an effort not to come out and do ticket checks when the rowdy passengers are out. Yet on early trains, they appear after every stop to check tickets. (In my experience)

 

[Metroland]

Interesting discussion.

There are surprisingly few incidents on trains of a serious nature, despite the impression given in some tabloids. Most of the violence is directed towards staff (mostly station staff and guards) rather than between passengers, unless there are two rival gangs fighting.

Anyway, the driver on a DOO train IS responsible for the safety of the passengers as well as the safe operation of the train. The guard, if provided, is also responsible of the safety of passengers.

That said the word ‘guard’, means guarding the train. With absolute block signalling (which is quite rare now, but mostly universal 50 years ago) where there are mostly no track circuits in signal sections, the guard performs a very important duty in preventing collisions and mishaps by proving full detonator protection. This is usually in rear of the train, especially if derailed vehicles are fouling the other running lines. That’s his first responsibility, and the reason guards are still mandatory on Absolute block lines.

Nevertheless, a guard or driver cannot get involved in law enforcement as they have no more powers than ordinary citizens. The correct way of dealing with passengers who cause disturbances is to ask for police assistance - usually via DOO/NRN radio or sometimes by phone or via station. It’s quite easy to arrange for police to arrive at a station (or have the train held outside if they are not there) and the police board the train and arrest any wrongdoers. Passengers can dial 999, but it is better if train crew deal with the arrangements as they can arrange with the station staff/signalling staff the plan of action.

Most problems are fare evasion, playing music on trains (especially annoying) and putting feet on seats or smoking. The great majority of these problems can and should be dealt with by the guard, or even fellow passengers (smoking/music). Clearly nobody should put themselves at risk, but often many of these problems come from over active teenagers who just need a gentle reminder.

The railway is a very controlled environment; stations and trains mostly have CCTV or are staffed. Train movements are constantly monitored and there many ways of getting assistance to trains should there be any problems. There really is no excuse for incidents not to be dealt with, and while common sense should be employed with ‘difficult’ passengers, usually correct with procedures there are ways of dealing with these things if the staff are any good at their job and work in a team.

 

[O L Leigh]

Anyway, the driver on a DOO train IS responsible for the safety of the passengers as well as the safe operation of the train.

I should clarify that this is only in the sense of making sure that they don't come to harm in some out-of-course situation like a train evacuation. This does not mean that I'm going to stand between you and some axe-wielding nutter.

O L Leigh

 

[Metroland]

Well yep, I agree. That's what the BTP etc are there for.

 

[AlexS]

Even as a seasoned rail traveller, you clearly have little grasp of just how things really are out there on the rails.

Besides, you've perfectly made my point for me. If you read my earlier posts to this thread you will see that it's not just the job of the traincrew to intervene as everyone has the same moral and legal right to do so. After all, the driver is not going to be the only "decent human being" who could be called upon to assist.

O L Leigh

Don't be silly.

I live in the West Mids Metro area which is among unpleasant the more unpleasant areas you're likely to get on the rails.

I've stood up in person to people being aggressive to railstaff before and I'm sure I shall do so again.

But equally the same question applies in this case, if someone takes objection to the guard and decides to put him through the toilet wall, why would anyone else assist if they were unlikely to get reciprocal treatment?

I speak as someone who quite happily would assist regardless.

Now, what really irked me into making these posts and I'll admit this is your posts in previous threads.

You have the audacity to tell people that traincrew smoking in toilets and so on is irrelevent and that passengers should mind their own business rather than reporting them. In actual fact they are breaking the law and so are their colleagues by letting them get away with it.

You need to get off your high horse and wind your neck in mate, if you want to make the law, stand as an MP, if you want protection from the law, abide by it.

Lazy gits in the top tax bracket not wanting to walk 15 feet for a fag do not get any sympathy from me I'm afraid.

 

[ungreat]

I think the argument at the time was Alex that traincrew smoking in bogs on trains was not a communication cord pulling threat,which is what my high tax bracket(nowhere near!) colleague said...I dont condone staff breaking the law by smoking on trains(and I do smoke,but not at work) but what does bug me(and before anyone says anything)is people that think they know better than railway staff about operational stuff.

I thought i knew a fair bit about railway operation before I joined..turned out I was greener than a golf courses grass

For the record,I like to think passengers can approach me with any concerns,and believe me,I will always do my best to sort it..and on several occasions faced knives,fire extinguishers let off in my face,air rifles,bottles etc

In the rule book,it states" You first concern is the SAFETY OF YOUR TRAIN"... nowhere does it mention the contents of such...we cant see the passengers and what they are doing..usually our first inclin of bad tidings is the cord being pulled ,usually by ****heads or little ****s that really ought to be under my wheels or by some concerned punter coming up to the cab window.I AM NOT OBLIGED TO GO BACK IF I THINK I AM IN DANGER...DO YOU UNDERSTAND? I may well be in charge of the train,but I am under no obligation to challenge anyone that may pose a threat to me

Yet I usually do,at least so I can give the cops a description of what is happening

 

[Metroland]

In the rule book,it states" You first concern is the SAFETY OF YOUR TRAIN"... nowhere does it mention the contents of such...

Well, not quite right, if you don't mind me saying so. It says:

You are responsible for:
• the safe working of the train
• preparing trains (if necessary)
• carrying out your duties as shown in module M1 Train stopped
by train accident, fire or accidental division and M2 Train stopped
by train failure if there is a train accident or failure.
• the safety of passengers on a train when it is a Driver Only (DO)
passenger train.

That doesn't mean law enforcement or confronting passengers if they are clearly a risk (I'm fully aware 3,000 staff are assaulted per year) - assistance should always be called in those cases. But it's quite wrong to give the impression on a DOO train it's nothing to do with the driver what goes on behind.. Or it's nothing to do with a guard when one of those is present. I'm not saying that was what was intended by that's the way it has come across in general. Passengers, reasonably expect someone in authority to look after their well being, and where a train is concerned, train crew are those people and that's one of the reasons they collect the salary they do.

PS Yes I was ops staff, but not train crew so I am prepared to be corrected. But that's my interpretation.

 

[First class]

Merseyrail have prosecuted around 500 people for feet on seats since they decided to enforce their byelaws properly. Yesterday I heard the kids behind me being cautioned by the enforcement officer and they were informed they would have to appear in Chester Magistrates Court to answer anti-social behaviour on the Merseyrail network.

The special guards even now have head-mounted cameras, so it can be used as proof. The 507s/508s and stations are covered in byelaw information.

I think there was also a sign recently saying that since they started doing all this, incidents are now around 1 a day, which is pretty impressive considering the areas the network covers..

You can pretty much guarantee a Revenue Protection Officer will see you at some point on your travels, (handing out penalty fares, particularly around Rock Ferry station).

BTP are regularly at Liverpool STNS and across the network in general, but you will always see at least 2 enforcement officers in their hi-viz, stab-proof jackets with the big torches and most with head mounted cameras. If you have a problem on the train, the train guard won't really do anything, but will contact BTP, and get the matter resolved fairly quickly.

Ticket checks aren't great by the guards, but then again, the RPIs sort of cover this aspect.

I feel safe on the network, despite going through some really rough areas of Merseyside, usually late at night.

 

[O L Leigh]

Now, what really irked me into making these posts and I'll admit this is your posts in previous threads.

You have the audacity to tell people that traincrew smoking in toilets and so on is irrelevent and that passengers should mind their own business rather than reporting them. In actual fact they are breaking the law and so are their colleagues by letting them get away with it.

You need to get off your high horse and wind your neck in mate, if you want to make the law, stand as an MP, if you want protection from the law, abide by it.

I've said nothing of the sort. However, if you believe I have, perhaps you would be so kind as to directly quote me.

Oh, and here's a challenge for you. Can you swear to me that you've never broken the law once in the last 12 months? Or should people in glass houses refrain from throwing stones...?

Just to clarify yet again, it is not my job to intervene with problems back in the train. It is my job to drive the train and ensure it's safe working. I have dealt with problems in the past if I happen to see something happening (e.g. seeing someone smoking while changing ends) or am made aware of it and will continue to do so. However, my concern is my own safety and I must make an assessment of risk before wading in.

But; and this is the crucial bit that I've been trying to get across, so pay attention children; there is no reason to expect that the traincrew will intervene. Some, like Ungreat, may but some may not. As passengers, you have the same moral and legal authority as traincrew. You CAN deal with these things yourselves if you so choose. There is no need to find the guard/driver, delay the train or risk escalating a poor situation into a full blown stand-off.

So that I am entirely clear, this is not the same thing as saying that it's nothing to do with me mate. What I'm saying is that you can deal with these things amongst yourselves without having to bother the traincrew.

O L Leigh

 

[jopsuk]

On the subject of enforcement- does the "Text DODGER to 60006" thing in NXEA actually work? I've never tried it, but most obvious dodgers (and they are really obvious) tend only to travel one or two stops, so unless there's a pair of RPIs already at the next station, the text is going to be fruitless.

(Have to say though, it is really funny watching a "catch" by RPIs unfold)

 

[Tom C]

There are surprisingly few incidents on trains of a serious nature, despite the impression given in some tabloids. Most of the violence is directed towards staff (mostly station staff and guards) rather than between passengers, unless there are two rival gangs fighting.

I am not sure where your statistics come from but I do have access to the assault statistics from a number of TOC's and from what I have seen there is an upward trend in assaults. In my local area the number of serious assaults (which in my mind is being physically hurt) has risen dramatically. There is also the issue of Verbal Abuse which can be just as harmful (if not worse) than a physical assaults which have goen through the roof. People may not believe that being verbal abuse should be water off a ducks back and to some people it may be but to others it definately isn't.

There is also the issue of aftercare to a member of staff who has been assaulted in the course of duty. I myself was physically assaulted around 2 years ago and the aftercare was absolutely appauling which is backed up by colleagues who were in a simular position. You have to ask yourself how you would feel if you were doing your job, you got assaults and then got treated like YOU did something wrong.

After all that would you really feel great about intervening in some of the situations outlined in this thread?

Most problems are fare evasion, playing music on trains (especially annoying) and putting feet on seats or smoking. The great majority of these problems can and should be dealt with by the guard, or even fellow passengers (smoking/music). Clearly nobody should put themselves at risk, but often many of these problems come from over active teenagers who just need a gentle reminder.

You are quite right about the general problems on trains.

The problem is every person is very different. I find putting feet on seats a real irritiation and during my day I will ask any person who does it to "Could you take your feet off the seats please". Now generally people will just take there feet off the seats but some people just fly completely off the handle and again you have to ask whether you would feel it was worth even asking when you are the only person on the train (bar the driver who could be 6 cars and a unit swop away), the nearest BTP officer could be half an hour away and your place of safety is blocked by other passengers.

It’s quite easy to arrange for police to arrive at a station (or have the train held outside if they are not there) and the police board the train and arrest any wrongdoers.

It may have been easy when you were on the railways but it certainly isn't easy to arrange for police to arrive at the next station!. For a start my grade is expressly forbidden to enter the driving cab/non driving cab unless they are imminant danger, my grade is also expressly forbidden from delaying a train for any reason unless its an emergency and if you phone the BTP regarding ANY of the matters that you rightly described as the main problems on trains they will class it as a non emergency and therefore you can wait up to an hour to get any help. I know of a member of staff who had a knife pulled on the onboard a train, phoned the BTP emergency line and was told that there was no units to deal for 40 minutes and by the time they had stopped bunnying and got off the phone so that the member of staff could phone 999 the train had gone an extra 4 stops and the person had gone!.

There really is no excuse for incidents not to be dealt with, and while common sense should be employed with ‘difficult’ passengers, usually correct with procedures there are ways of dealing with these things if the staff are any good at their job and work in a team.

You are entitled to your opinion but I personally find that last statement very offensive.

Firstly, we don't work in a "team" we work alone so perhaps you could elaberate.
Secondly, If you are employed as a driver, RPI, guard, station staff, booking office clerk, shunter, cleaner, clerical staff or just about every other job on the railway then your ability is based on what you do. How can you say that a driver has to be an expert in defusing bad situations or stopping someone smoking to be good at their job.

You should feel absolutely no shame in walking away from a situation if you feel at any time that you could come to any sort of harm in any part of your duty including any operational aspects and its even the First Group safety statement.

IF YOU CANNOT DO IT SAFELY - DON'T DO IT!