Bad experiences

[Gizmogle]

After spending a couple of weeks travelling around Scotland and Wales, I noticed rail staff (preserved and mainline) doing some pretty shocking things.

The first thing that comes to mind, is a certain company's staff shunting a steam loco upto the coaches...with the shunter still between them! One wrong move, and he could have been dead. From what others have said to me, this is a regular occurance!

Another one that rather annoyed me was a guard who kept smoking in the back cab and then walking through to check tickets stinky of cigarettes.

I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of anything at the moment.

Feel free to share your stories, but lets not get anyone into trouble.
(Even if some of them do deserve it.)

 

[laseandre]

I was on a 320 coming back from Glasgow and there were some Rangers fans shouting and jumping around like loonies, so I asked the guard/ticket inspector if he could do something. He said "Yeah", then just went straight into the back cab, never to be heard from again. No BTP either.

 

[Gizmogle]

Oh yeah. FGW do that too. There'll be raging drunk people, and the TM will just go and hide in the cab. No ticket checks or sight of them whatsoever.

There was a kid running around on the line in Scotland. (can't remember which station exactly) He was about 13. There was a shed waiting at a red and a passenger service due any minute, both coming onto single track. The kid was running around on the line and picked something up. A big hunk of metal, then started throwing it at station signs. He also decided to climb the signals.
After telling the guard and driver, he got a brief telling off, and was allowed to get on his way with no trouble at all.

 

[djw1981]

1. You get bad employees in any organisation. Any staff member flouting the rules is putting their job at risk, as is any manager who allow sit to happen. there are several RAIB reports about shunters being trapped with clear guidance as to best practice.

2. For 18k a year I wouldn't tackle a group of drunk guys either. From this point of view, GNER having onboard crew trained as Special Constables did help AIUI. The BTP would have been covering a huge area of Scotland today, and Strathclyde are busy with fans actually commiting serious crime (at present I can hear both helicopters and see 4 riot vans from my flat window), rather than just a breach of the peace on a train. It is not pleasant for other passengers but fans tend to be self regulating.

3. If a guard calls BTP, then he must wait until they arrive to give a statement. He has no power to detain that child, who may wander off before BTP arrive, thus the train service is delayed (costing FSR money) and with single track, may cause many thousands of delay minutes through the day, all attributable to that guard - possible disciplinary action..... BTP could take 2-3 hours to get to the station (single track implies rural areas) by which point the child has gone and cannot be traced. Adults shouting at kids doesn't work because kids today tend to believe that respect has to be earned by adults, instead of them respecting someone for the position they hold.

 

[466.networkers]

Got on a 466 to go to Sittingbourne on Saturday, got on the second carriage (DMSO - the noisy one without the toilet) and went to the front of the carriage (and therefore the train) and came across two people smoking some weird stuff, smelt dodgy (well, this is the Isle of Sheppey! ), so I quickly jumped off and went to have a quiet word with a member of the train staff which turned out to be the driver, mentioned that there were 2 people smoking in the other carriage (I was by the first carriage (DTSO with the toilet), he said 'Alright, thanks' walked off, and NOTHING was done, they weren;r spoken to or anything. Obviously, Southeastern don't give a flying fish about the smoking ban otherwise those two would've had an expensive journey .....

 

[djw1981]

Again - 2 drugged out people are not something that a driver (on a DOO train IIRC the 466 correctly) would want to challenge, maybe. The risk to self is too great.

 

[Yank 119]

The first thing that comes to mind, is a certain company's staff shunting a steam loco upto the coaches...with the shunter still between them! One wrong move, and he could have been dead. From what others have said to me, this is a regular occurance!

Have you ever been to the continent? In my times in France and Germany I saw this done regularly. Agreed, it can be dangerous.

 

[Ascot]

Oh yeah. FGW do that too. There'll be raging drunk people, and the TM will just go and hide in the cab. No ticket checks or sight of them whatsoever.

You tackle them then for that pay.

The first thing that comes to mind, is a certain company's staff shunting a steam loco upto the coaches...with the shunter still between them! One wrong move, and he could have been dead. From what others have said to me, this is a regular occurance!

They know what there doing no need to go all Health and (what's the other one again) more than they already get.

The kid was running around on the line and picked something up. A big hunk of metal, then started throwing it at station signs. He also decided to climb the signals.
After telling the guard and driver, he got a brief telling off, and was allowed to get on his way with no trouble at all.

What more can they do? By the time they call the police they'll be long gone. All summer on the Valley we have had kids smashing windows in just outside Bewdley Tunnel, police informed but not alot can be done. We can't jump out as they are beyond our line.

 

[class 313]

In what way is this shocking? It happens all the time and isn't really frowned upon. Okay fair enough the guard smoking is a bit eugh but its hardly shocking either.

 

[richa2002]

The shunter being inbetween the loco and coaches has gone on for decades, 99.9% of the time it happens with no incident and is still commonplace in Europe.

 

[Gizmogle]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I would most likely be hiding if I were in their position.

I've been harrassed by people on drugs on a train before. They were throwing themselves around and kept trying to steal my backpack and shouting and stuff. Very scary.


Hmm, I still find the shunter stuff pretty shocking though. They really should get out of the way when the coach and loco are compressed. That's just my opinion though. I guess they must know what they're doing if they're not dead yet!

 

[Ascot]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I would most likely be hiding if I were in their position.

Which is how they think. There not heroes. Albeit the odd jobsworth who thinks is superman.

Hmm, I still find the shunter stuff pretty shocking though. They really should get out of the way when the coach and loco are compressed. That's just my opinion though. I guess they must know what they're doing if they're not dead yet!

There's lots more "health and safety moans" which i would say are worse but there safe as long as you know what your doing and don't get caught by a super grass who tells the gaffer. Of course people don't talk about them in public for obvious reasons.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Not sure where this thread might be going - but I HOPE its going to provide evidence that its the railway staff that face an almost constant stream of badly behaved passesngers and other public, are under-resourced to deal with them, and still continue to provide an excellent service, day in day out, with most of the staff managing to rise above the cr*p they receive every day thanks to their passionate committment to the railways! (Despite apparently uncommitted senior executives in the TOCs).

Come on, I'm sure this thread is meant in good humour, but please show your appreciation. I know I wouldn't put up with the inane "lost my ticket" - "when's the next train to . . ", the blocked toilets, the lack of shop stock, the infrastrucure decaying, pax trying to board moving trains, the cut-backs on rostering experienced personnel, etc etc.
</rant>

My experience of shocking behavoir? Never from railway personnel! Might not have liked it, but I've always been supportive.

 

[DavyCrocket]

Hmm, I still find the shunter stuff pretty shocking though. They really should get out of the way when the coach and loco are compressed. That's just my opinion though. I guess they must know what they're doing if they're not dead yet!

I would never do that! I know that per number of times done, versus incidents it probably seems safe, but just look at the Gwilli railway shunting incident on the RAIB website.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I would most likely be hiding if I were in their position.

I've been harrassed by people on drugs on a train before. They were throwing themselves around and kept trying to steal my backpack and shouting and stuff. Very scary.

These sorts of people are not very nice and railway companies must do all they can to prevent and act against them. This doesn't mean sending a member of staff in with no protection. It does mean investing in secuity systems and BT Police to attend.
Of course when phoning the BT Police you can ask for a local force unit to attend.

On the Tube, station staff do get sent out to investigate these things and do sometimes intervene. Train Operators are discouraged mainly as if they are assaulted they can't drive the train! Then again, 9 out of 10 times BT or Met Police can be on the scene in minutes (thanks to the investment LUL put into the BTP mainly!).

 

[djw1981]

Which is how they think. There not heroes. Albeit the odd jobsworth who thinks is superman.



There's lots more "health and safety moans" which i would say are worse but there safe as long as you know what your doing and don't get caught by a super grass who tells the gaffer. Of course people don't talk about them in public for obvious reasons.

The problem is that when there is an accident, the same staff say 'Management never stopped us doing it' thus shifting the blame, which makes Managers support blanket bans on activities rather than a risk mitigation or approach. The H&S at Work etc Act (the etc is important) states that each person is responsible for operating in a safe manner, and their own health and safety. i.e. if you don't think it is safe, don't do it. They obviously think it is safe, because they do it.

 

[me123]

For the Rangers fans on the 320... trust me, with Old Firm supporters, you would not want to attack them!

 

[P156KWJ]

After spending a couple of weeks travelling around Scotland and Wales, I noticed rail staff (preserved and mainline) doing some pretty shocking things.

The first thing that comes to mind, is a certain company's staff shunting a steam loco upto the coaches...with the shunter still between them! One wrong move, and he could have been dead. From what others have said to me, this is a regular occurance!

Another one that rather annoyed me was a guard who kept smoking in the back cab and then walking through to check tickets stinky of cigarettes.

I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of anything at the moment.

Feel free to share your stories, but lets not get anyone into trouble.
(Even if some of them do deserve it.)

did the 'company' you first mentioned happen to be the Jacobite operator?

I've seen staff smoking on locos before, especially a major freight haulier with a red/gold livery, inside 66s!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh, don't get me wrong. I would most likely be hiding if I were in their position.

I've been harrassed by people on drugs on a train before. They were throwing themselves around and kept trying to steal my backpack and shouting and stuff. Very scary.


Hmm, I still find the shunter stuff pretty shocking though. They really should get out of the way when the coach and loco are compressed. That's just my opinion though. I guess they must know what they're doing if they're not dead yet!

the shunters - if you have too many people doing the job and not paying attention, it can get nasty. Don't know if this is true, think it is, but I was told that once there was confusion about who was doing a shunt. One shunter assumed the driver saw him give the signal for 'going under', whereas what he was looking at was some other randomer on the other side doing an 'ease up' signal, and the first guy had a raised buckeye smashed in to his head and killed the poor sod

 

[Craig]

Hmm, I still find the shunter stuff pretty shocking though. They really should get out of the way when the coach and loco are compressed. That's just my opinion though. I guess they must know what they're doing if they're not dead yet!

They might think they know what they're doing, but it doesn't make it any safer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btr1wsEwTkE

 

[yorkie]

Another one that rather annoyed me was a guard who kept smoking in the back cab and then walking through to check tickets stinky of cigarettes.

Did you challenge him?

I caught 6 people smoking on Saturday's tour, and challenged them all. They all complied immediately. Only one of them re-offended.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They might think they know what they're doing, but it doesn't make it any safer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btr1wsEwTkE

Was he OK after this, does anyone know?

 

[O L Leigh]

Nowhere in my job description does it state that I must act as a security guard, challenge people over comparatively minor illegalities or generally make myself into a busybody. I'm a train driver and I have my hands full enough of the job I do without sticking my neck on the line.

Quite honestly I'm a little disappointed. Why should all of these things fall to a member of staff? As members of the public, you have no less legal or moral right to tackle problems than we do. The only difference is that the uniform might help to lend us a little more authority, although that is only at the level of perception and not of law. If someone's dicking around with the doors or passcoms then I'm obliged to get involved, but if someone tells me that there's a smoker 6 coaches back what do you expect me to do beyond making a PA announcement...?

Is now a good time to mention the number of DOO drivers assaulted on the job? Just on my division, we've had drivers spat at, verbally abused, shot with an airgun and burned with a modified lighter. It's also not uncommon for RPI's to be shown knives in lieu of tickets. As my own health and safety is largely my own responsibility, I will continue to do whatever I need to safeguard it.

O L Leigh

 

[Gizmogle]

Well, we've all seen the stories in the papers where someone says something to another passenger and then gets their face kicked in. I'm only a 17yr old girl. I'd be dead in a second!

 

[P156KWJ]

it's dangerous for anyone I suppose (especially if you are female whilst travelling alone or young) and I think it's a joint responsibility, but more toward staff

 

[O L Leigh]

Oh right. So now the traincrew are expected to step into the firing line instead...?

Don't mean to be harsh or to direct this at anyone in particular (least of all Gizzy), but why should we...? You can call the Police as easily as we can. You have the same powers of arrest as we do. If you can see what's going on (and, lets face it, the driver can't) and are able to do something about it, why delay?

O L Leigh

 

[djw1981]

Also, the driver/guard may be putting in a call to control for Police to meet a train 2 or 3 stops down the line at a bright well lit station with staff around, than tackle them on his own. He wouldn't announce the fact that was what he was doing though in case they kicked off. The overall delay can thus be minimised.

 

[Gizmogle]

I'm not saying that it's the driver's job to. Nor the guard really. But why are they called guards if they spend their time hiding away from the passengers? They need to at least pass through the train to make sure that everyone is safe and people aren't being stabbed to death!

I'd feel like I was wasting police time if I rang them to be honest. Also, I wouldn't want to ring the BTP or Crimestoppers or whoever in the same coach as these people.

 

[P156KWJ]

which'd be hard if you're in a 153

 

[O L Leigh]

Maybe we can arrange assistance at a location further up, but how long would you like us to wait for the BTP to attend...? By the time they get there, the toe-rags would have wandered off already. Also, if it's something you wouldn't bother the Police with, why would you feel the need to alert the traincrew?

They aren't called guards because they are there to safeguard the passengers from the lowlifes that ocassionally travel by rail. They are there to protect the train.

O L Leigh

 

[Gizmogle]

I would only ring the police if someone was dying or something. I find it to be a VERY serious measure.

I really wouldn't want to bother anyone. But I often feel very threatened when travelling by rail. Mainly by drunks and such who are being rowdy. The ones that shout at you if you get up or draw the slightest bit of attention to yourself. I wouldn't ring the police for something like that, as I'd be scared of looking stupid once they get there and tell me that I'm being stupid, etc. I would alert the train crew, if I could find them!

 

[O L Leigh]

And what would you hope the traincrew would do...?

O L Leigh

 

[DaveNewcastle]

As for safety, there is SOOOO much self-critical anaysis under the name of "Health & Safety" that realy, we just have to acknowlege the amazingly safe environment we are in, (even if it seems OTT sometimes). Please PLEASE read http://www.rssb.co.uk/pdf/reports/ASPR_2006.pdf for a very thorough and frank discussion of rail incidents, study it carefully, and THEN, consider thir upfront bullet-points:-
For a second consecutive year, there were no passenger or workforce fatalities in train accidents.
• Two passengers died as a result of assault. A further six passengers died in accidents
at stations; alcohol was a contributory factor in three cases.
• Two members of the workforce died in accidents in the trackside environment.

Surely you can agree with me, for all the apparently excessive H&S concerns, the outcome of rail vs other transport (or even staying at home) is truly awsome.