Bad experiences

[class 313]

Of course, but you're not always in a situation where that's possible.

Fair enough to not get out their sight but to move away into a safer area which could be the toilet so you can text for advise...

 

[ungreat]

As a fellow driver to O L Leigh I totally agree with his comments..however...

Any **** on my train,I get stuck in..Im quite a burly bloke and dont take kindly to being stopped from getting home,and will confront any tit who takes liberties with the safety of my train.If they wanna play numpty,then i play back

Usually works for me..although you can never be sure what you are going to face.Personally,I would rather face them than stand back

 

[djw1981]

text who? IIRC the police don't operate a text service (except for text-talk for the deaf) also most urban EMU's don't have toilets

 

[O L Leigh]

Im quite a burly bloke

Ah, well that's where we are different.

However, I broadly agree. Someone pulling passcoms or doors, letting off fire extinguishers or getting into the back cab will be dealt with because of the safety implications of such actions. But I don't personally see the need to intervene just because someone comes up and tells me that there are people smoking or being a bit lairy. That's what the PA is there for (though I've also found that this works wonders for door-pullers too, and have stopped them dead before just with a single announcement).

O L Leigh

 

[djw1981]

It is interesting but on some FSR routes., the late evening conductors are normally the same ones and larger chaps... (possible swap to permanent lates??) helps with revenue protection I guess.

The one time I saw one get stuck into a guy who wa ****ting a girl, it was the signal for 2 or 3 passengers to get up and offer him a hand....

 

[ungreat]

No worries mate,we all deal with our situation as we see it at the time..I like to crack heads!

 

[Bayum]

Ahahahaha

My grandma had an experience and a half the other week...
Going home from her hometown of Sheffield, she found out the Reservation system wasn't working on her Voyager - although I thought usually you were given your seat if you had reserved it?? - anyways. She asked the shop keeper if it was true, and he said yes, so she stood at the doors by the shop presuming she would just wait until she got back to Leeds. Presently the train manager found her, and asked her if she was Mrs blahblah, My grandma replied yes, and he went to find her a seat. Did all the normal ticket checks etc, and came across a huge queue. Asking what the queue was for, the people replied the toilet. So, he went to the front with my grandma, and asked how long they were going to be and they replied - just a minute. And the queue all said the toilet had been occupied since New Street... So the train manager told the guy to get decent, and opened the door, and said well hurry up. So he shut the door, and the guy came out after a minute or so. And someone outside the toilet said - I work with Heroin addicts, giving out methadone etc - he's been taking heroin in there... So the train manager asked how he knew, and the guy replied saying he could see the burst veins through his shirt. So the train manager looked in the toilet, found a syringe, and looked in the bin and found another - took my grandma upto first class, and proceeded to Call BTP to meet the person at Westgate!!

 

[yorkie]

she found out the Reservation system wasn't working on her Voyager - although I thought usually you were given your seat if you had reserved it?? -!

You have no entitlement to it if the reservation system is not working. No reservation system means no reservations.

And, on the subject of toilets, on the Pembroke Dock meet in 2007(?) someone entered the toilet as a man and came out as a woman (or was it the other way round?). Not that it was a bad experience - it was quite funny!

 

[class 313]

text who? IIRC the police don't operate a text service (except for text-talk for the deaf) also most urban EMU's don't have toilets

Around here its only 313s/508s and 455s that don't have toilets.

 

[P156KWJ]

and 376s

 

[First class]

You have no entitlement to it if the reservation system is not working. No reservation system means no reservations.

And, on the subject of toilets, on the Pembroke Dock meet in 2007(?) someone entered the toilet as a man and came out as a woman (or was it the other way round?). Not that it was a bad experience - it was quite funny!

If you hold a reservation and the train cannot honour it, you are entitled to compensation, 1st class if room is available, subject to discretion, and an obvious apology. This is listed in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

 

[djw1981]

Not quite

41. Refund of reservation fees
If a seat reservation, sleeper reservation or cycle reservation is not honoured, the
Train Company responsible will refund any reservation fee paid. If the Train
Company is unable to provide alternative equivalent accommodation for you or
your cycle, you will be compensated for the inconvenience. The value of the
compensation will be no more than the price of the full single fare for the
journey. If you are unable or have decided not to travel you will be entitled to
claim a refund under Condition 26 for the relevant part of your journey.

From http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf p15 (my emphasis)

 

[jopsuk]

and of course, reservations (including cycle reservations) are free, so as long as you get a seat of the class you paid for, not getting your reserved seat costs them nothing.

 

[upyourjunction]

If you hold a reservation and the train cannot honour it, you are entitled to compensation, 1st class if room is available, subject to discretion, and an obvious apology. This is listed in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

You are wrong, you are ony entitled to your journey A to B!

 

[AlexS]

Traincrews primary responsibility is safety of their passengers.

I appreciate you're the driver of a DOO train but in all honesty, that's the fault of your predecessors agreeing to dispense with the train guards for an extra few quid in the pay packet, same as freight trains. Management came up with it, unions agreed to it, bye bye guards, this means you now have sole responsibility for your passengers.

Deal with it and stop bloody bleating and trotting out the 'why should we deal with passengers face to face' line. There used to be a guard but they were sold out so now there isn't and it's the driver's job.

As for shunters standing between the loco and stock, they're silly arses and I know of at least 2 deaths in the last 2 years on the UK network because of shunters being crushed between the loco and the stock. Even way back when the instruction was to use a shunters pole as often as possible to catch on and off in order to minimise the risk to staff under trains.

 

[djw1981]

Wrong. The traincrew's primary responsibility os the safety of the train as an entity, regardless of whether anyone is on it. The driver fulfills this by driving according to the rules (signals, speeds etc).

Though AIUI the Unions at teh time of introduction of DOO were afetr more money for those drivers since they 'would be doing the Guard's job', but I'm not sure oif DOO drivers still get more than 'guarded train' drivers - O L Leigh, can you let us know, Ta.

 

[O L Leigh]

Traincrews primary responsibility is safety of their passengers.

I appreciate you're the driver of a DOO train but in all honesty, that's the fault of your predecessors agreeing to dispense with the train guards for an extra few quid in the pay packet, same as freight trains. Management came up with it, unions agreed to it, bye bye guards, this means you now have sole responsibility for your passengers.

Deal with it and stop bloody bleating and trotting out the 'why should we deal with passengers face to face' line. There used to be a guard but they were sold out so now there isn't and it's the driver's job.

As for shunters standing between the loco and stock, they're silly arses and I know of at least 2 deaths in the last 2 years on the UK network because of shunters being crushed between the loco and the stock. Even way back when the instruction was to use a shunters pole as often as possible to catch on and off in order to minimise the risk to staff under trains.

I'm staggered.

May I ask what your connection to the industry is...? The reason I ask is because quite frankly you are wrong on almost every point.

Though AIUI the Unions at teh time of introduction of DOO were afetr more money for those drivers since they 'would be doing the Guard's job', but I'm not sure oif DOO drivers still get more than 'guarded train' drivers - O L Leigh, can you let us know, Ta.

Nope.

Pay and conditions vary widely from TOC to TOC. XC are minting much more than we are on the WA side of NXEA.

O L Leigh

 

[djw1981]

I was chatting to a H&S person today (different industry) who was saying that if you are aware of a 'safety notice' being issued, and a safe method of work, and flout it, despite warnings from management, then your employers responsibilities under the H&S@Wetc Act are altered such that they are no longer responsible for your welfare because you have chosen to undertake unsafe working practices. This alone is grounds for instant dismissal legally.........which is a bit scary biscuits!

 

[AlexS]

I'm staggered.

May I ask what your connection to the industry is...? The reason I ask is because quite frankly you are wrong on almost every point.

O L Leigh

A frustrated passenger who is fed up of seeing incompetent traincrew not get the boot for doing frankly crap things like smoking in toilets (and I know plenty of the buggers!) and I do other things that I'm not really at liberty to disclose in public.

Yes the precise term is safety of the train but it's also quite clear that if the passengers are in danger then the equipment is the secondary concern.

If you would like to read the appropriate circular notice regarding shunting trains then it'll be about somewhere, although it might have been before your time.

I know a lot of rail enthusiasts have some kind of view of rail staff being gods on this earth but I am not one of them and I am certainly of the view that if they do summat wrong, then they take the appropriate fall.

Equally, being a decent human being dictates that if you have someone in trouble, you assist them.

If you get a kicking for delay minutes over passenger disturbances then you really need to be on to the union because if someone then decides to put a window through, you have a jolly safety related incident to deal with.

Sitting up front pretending world war 3 isn't kicking off behind you is generally not going to be a productive way to finish the evening.

 

[upyourjunction]

Traincrews primary responsibility is safety of their passengers.



Deal with it and stop bloody bleating and trotting out the 'why should we deal with passengers face to face' line. There used to be a guard but they were sold out so now there isn't and it's the driver's job.

You talk as if the Guard of old would appear like some avenging Angel at the first sign of trouble! which is rubbish, back before DOO most would put there feet up & have a nap between stations & not even bother with tickets, thats why they got rid of them!
The difference between now is there are more chav scum causing trouble on the network than ever before, tanked up & ready to knife you!

 

[O L Leigh]

While respecting your view, you have to understand that I am under no compulsion to intervene if things are kicking off in my train (assuming that I am even aware that such an occurrence is even happening). Even as a seasoned rail traveller, you clearly have little grasp of just how things really are out there on the rails.

Besides, you've perfectly made my point for me. If you read my earlier posts to this thread you will see that it's not just the job of the traincrew to intervene as everyone has the same moral and legal right to do so. After all, the driver is not going to be the only "decent human being" who could be called upon to assist.

O L Leigh

 

[Max]

I'm not sure what guards are paid to do sometimes. One example, earlier this week on First Great Western, a female guard on a Paddington-Penzance service spent the whole of my leg of the journey (Plymouth-Penzance) sat in first class doing pretty much nothing apart from talking to a colleague. No ticket checks, no passing through the train to ask if anybody wanted connection times (yes, the train was 20 late - only very slightly according to her). You wouldn't have thought that one check on a two hour journey would be too much to ask, surely?

 

[O L Leigh]

The term "Guard" is a bit of a misnomer. It gives people the idea that they are some sort of on-train Police. They aren't. They are there to ensure the safe working of the train.

O L Leigh

 

[Ascot]

The term "Guard" is a bit of a misnomer. It gives people the idea that they are some sort of on-train Police. They aren't. They are there to ensure the safe working of the train.

O L Leigh

Pretty safe working with the doors kicked in.

 

[O L Leigh]

You lot are talking like we'd be sitting quietly in the cab while a horde of raging thugs commit rape and pillage throughout the train. Exactly where did we say that...?

O L Leigh

 

[dan_atki]

I'm tending to agree with O L Leigh on this. What resonsibilty does a DOO driver (or a 'guard') for that matter have to challenge trouble on their train? It is not in their job description and nor do they turn up for work each day and wonder if they'll be a cop for the day.

Both the driver (be it a DOO train or not) and the 'guard' (where they exist) have their own responsibilites to carry out without expecting to have to police the service they're on. Something can happen on a bus too - would you expect the driver to get involved in it (especially in this day and age?). Probably not, and the reason being if anything did happen to him then the bus would be stranded wherever it is whilst they are incompacitated.

The same thing can happen on a train. A guard could challenge someone for doing something and get stabbed as a result of it, then who is there? Do you think the driver would get involved if such an incident occurred? They'd certainly call the emergency services and the control room but they're not going to be a have a go hero.

Even worse if on a DOO train the driver decides to do something. What happens if something happens to them? You get one stranded train (whether or not it's at a station - manned or otherwise - is irrelevant) and an incapacitated employee.

OK so it's not part of the job description so why should they challenge anything? They have enough to deal with as it is already, they fear for life and limb (and honestly, if you thought there was a possibility of you being involved in a physical attack not knowing if the other person is/people are armed are you going to get involved?*), and they have enough safe working practices to deal with too - one foot out of line and they could be sacked or worse, then there is compensation culture on top of that.

* Then there is the argument that 'they are in an authoratitive position'. Yes, but at the end of the day that doesn't make them Superman with instant invulnerability. They are, like the passengers, only human.

It would be seen that a train carriage is like society itself. You hope it'll police itself for almost all of the time but when things do go wrong the police will come out and deal with it like they can do anyway. Rail employees are told (and it is strongly emphasised upon) that they must not place themselves in immediate danger under any circumstances. Front line staff have conflict management training so they're hardly likely to put themselves in the middle of a conflict are they?

A kind of analogy to the situation is a bank robbery (in a weird way but I think it's valid). As the employee who's being demanded of, are you going to comply with them and just hand over the money or are you going to look at them and say no (and probably face instant death). Same thing can indeed happen in a ticket office, and again staff have been told not to place themselves in danger and if they want money then best to hand it over. Very strong emphasis to avoid physical harm as you can see and that is why rail staff do not get themselves into confrontational situations - they are needed at that precise moment for the operation of the train.

 

[P156KWJ]

it's courtesy. You should just do it, regardless of if it's on paper or not.

 

[dan_atki]

it's courtesy. You should just do it, regardless of if it's on paper or not.

Courtesy!? Again, something else not in the job description. It's also (as has already been said) 'courteous' for other members of the public to get involved in the situation if they feel adequately able to do so.

Somehow I just can't see the next train driving vacancy as including 'You are responsible for dealing with all breaches of the peace on your train' in it anywhere at all. Not only would nobody apply for it, but the unions would be up in arms about it (and quite rightly so).

 

[Mintona]

it's courtesy. You should just do it, regardless of if it's on paper or not.

I'm sorry, but you simply shouldn't. If I saw someone smoking on my train, I would tell them off. Same if I saw feet on seats. But if someone has a knife, I am gonna evacuate as safely as I can, and get the hell out of there myself. If I can't evacuate safely, I won't do it. We are told that our own safety is more important than that of anyone else. Whether you agree with that or not is up to you. But it is the rules we have to work to. I do not want to stand up to someone with a knife, potentially get injured, and then face disciplinary action. It's not worth it.

I will do what I'm told, keep myself and others as safe as possible, but if I can't guarantee my own safety, then I am not to consider the safety of others.

 

[Gizmogle]

I'm sorry, but you simply shouldn't. If I saw someone smoking on my train, I would tell them off. Same if I saw feet on seats. But if someone has a knife, I am gonna evacuate as safely as I can, and get the hell out of there myself.

I completely agree with that. No one would be expected to get involved if there's a weapon.

But most guards would ignore the fact that feet were on seats, or not even walk through the train. I've seen people smoking on trains before that haven't been told off!