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Bad experiences
- Thread starter Gizmogle
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Well, they have the authority. They can chuck people off for a start. People tend to listen to train crew. If I told someone to stop something, they'd tell me to STFU (which has happened before).
Mintona
Established Member
Always look after number one first. That's what I've been told. My safety is more important than that of anyone else. If I see someone get assaulted, and I can't deal with it without possible injury to myself, then I am not to help. I will phone the BTP.
I got a lot of grief last night from a couple of drunk folks who missed their last train home by seconds. I let the train go, about 2-3 seconds before advertised time and that was enough. The fact that doors are locked 30 second before departure apparently means nothing to these people. But I was being threatened, so in fear of escalating the situation, I organised a taxi home for them. And they were very greatful.
But I don't go to work to get abused, physically or verbally, and neither do any railway staff. We go to make sure trains run for people who can be bothered to get there on time, not for those who can't! And I wouldn't challenge people being drunk or rowdy at the station as long as they weren't actually being threatening toward myself or others.
I got a lot of grief last night from a couple of drunk folks who missed their last train home by seconds. I let the train go, about 2-3 seconds before advertised time and that was enough. The fact that doors are locked 30 second before departure apparently means nothing to these people. But I was being threatened, so in fear of escalating the situation, I organised a taxi home for them. And they were very greatful.
But I don't go to work to get abused, physically or verbally, and neither do any railway staff. We go to make sure trains run for people who can be bothered to get there on time, not for those who can't! And I wouldn't challenge people being drunk or rowdy at the station as long as they weren't actually being threatening toward myself or others.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Fatalities as a result of assault is a different statistic from the number of assaults (both recorded and unrecorded) that actually happen. You may not die as a result of an assault on the railway, but that doesn't mean you won't be assaulted.
Now that's not to say that the railways are dangerous, because they aren't. There are relatively few assaults take place on the railway, as most rail-based crime is directed against the railway itself rather than against the people who use it. But what we need to bear in mind is that we need the right stats in order to further the debate. As good and positive as these stats are, they ain't the right ones.
O L Leigh
Now that's not to say that the railways are dangerous, because they aren't. There are relatively few assaults take place on the railway, as most rail-based crime is directed against the railway itself rather than against the people who use it. But what we need to bear in mind is that we need the right stats in order to further the debate. As good and positive as these stats are, they ain't the right ones.
O L Leigh
Because they guard the train, as in close the doors and the such. If you took literal sense of the word then would you expect them to be wearing stab proof vests and things like that? I think you find guards do pass through the train or at least are supposed to, weather they do or not is up the them but surly against TOC rules if they don't?
So you believe that calling the police is a waste of their time? Something they are there for. Nice to know that, I'll try and not get in any bother when I'm with you then.
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Is a passenger is kicking off, what makes you think they will listen to train crew over any other passenger? It obviously would depend on the situation of course but in most cases they wouldn't even listen to the BTP let alone train crew.
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Mintona
Established Member
Not many, if any, companies call them guards nowadays. They are conductors or train managers.
Oh wow, I really don't know what to say to that.
So someone says 'call the police!'
and you reply with 'ermm no sorry I don't want to bother them'
Id certainly just take your phone and call them myself if that was the case.
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I was going to say that but thought it was only the mainline TOCs...
There are some total numpties on Metrolink I discovered today.
A group of kids (probably 14-15), smoking, went to get on a tram and were asked for tickets. They either realised they were going to be done for being on child tickets while smoking, or (more likely) had no ticket at all. They were sent away. Still smoking and not told to put it out. So I had a go at them. They tried to act hard but they sulked off not smoking the cigarette.
Then we were delayed at Crumpsall due to someone refusing to leave the tram to sort out a ticket dispute. In danger of missing my train, I had 'words' with him, as did a few others. Would I recommend this? No. But I don't regret standing up to him. He tried to act hard, despite loads of people telling him to bugger off but eventually was forced off the tram by the RPIs. He was all talk with 100+ witnesses, but as the tram started to move he was literally head to head with the RPI. I don't know what happened next (police already on their way but they were being slow so I took no chances by dialling 999 and said they needed to make it an urgent priority). Hopefully he didn't inflict any damage and is spending tonight in a cell. I honestly wouldn't care if people like this were deported to some desert island and left to fend for themselves.
I can understand where 'O L Leigh' is coming from - if you are on your own you have to be careful. This guy WOULD have assaulted someone if they'd been alone and challenged him, I am sure.
After what I saw, I'd say there needs to be police accompanying those inspectors, and there needs to be more of them. Barriers at Bury are no use further down the line, there needs to be regular on tram checks (we had two). I don't want to delve into that 'other' topic but let's just say I can think of plenty of effective uses for police time where they are desperately needed.
A group of kids (probably 14-15), smoking, went to get on a tram and were asked for tickets. They either realised they were going to be done for being on child tickets while smoking, or (more likely) had no ticket at all. They were sent away. Still smoking and not told to put it out. So I had a go at them. They tried to act hard but they sulked off not smoking the cigarette.
Then we were delayed at Crumpsall due to someone refusing to leave the tram to sort out a ticket dispute. In danger of missing my train, I had 'words' with him, as did a few others. Would I recommend this? No. But I don't regret standing up to him. He tried to act hard, despite loads of people telling him to bugger off but eventually was forced off the tram by the RPIs. He was all talk with 100+ witnesses, but as the tram started to move he was literally head to head with the RPI. I don't know what happened next (police already on their way but they were being slow so I took no chances by dialling 999 and said they needed to make it an urgent priority). Hopefully he didn't inflict any damage and is spending tonight in a cell. I honestly wouldn't care if people like this were deported to some desert island and left to fend for themselves.
I can understand where 'O L Leigh' is coming from - if you are on your own you have to be careful. This guy WOULD have assaulted someone if they'd been alone and challenged him, I am sure.
After what I saw, I'd say there needs to be police accompanying those inspectors, and there needs to be more of them. Barriers at Bury are no use further down the line, there needs to be regular on tram checks (we had two). I don't want to delve into that 'other' topic but let's just say I can think of plenty of effective uses for police time where they are desperately needed.
Cl313: And you'd be done for theft....
I think Gizzy meant she would only call them off her own bat, as opposed to someone else saying call the police/ambulance/fire and her making the call. Class313 is being too literal I fear.
I think Gizzy meant she would only call them off her own bat, as opposed to someone else saying call the police/ambulance/fire and her making the call. Class313 is being too literal I fear.
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Of course I'd call the police in that sort of situation.
But what if you didn't think it was serious enough :???:
Well someone else has made the decision and you are merely carrying it out. this suggests that there is more than just you feeling threatened thus you have some herd mentality and thus the police are more likely to listen to (though not agree with) your views.
Yes. I'd be more comfortable ringing the BTP than the Police. But I don't know the number for them! Obviously I can easily look it up now, but when I may need it, I might not be able to get it.
I can't really say in what kind of situation I would ring the BTP/Police, because every situation is different.
I still think having a 'oh lets not disturb the police' is a bit of a odd if not **** attitude to have. Isn't there a special number for things that aren't urgent anyway?
O L Leigh
Established Member
I don't think traincrew would make much difference.
One driver who, like 99.9% of the people on the train, just wants to get home versus several drunks on the last train down is not good odds. How would you propose that I eject them from the train at some little godforsaken halt like Roydon? Do you really think they are going to respect my authority? In addition, I'm the only member of staff down there who can be responsible for the train. If I get my lights knocked out, who's going to know who to call to get another driver down to take the train forward?
I don't mean to appear uncaring, but I want to get people to understand that this isn't just about traincrew taking a stand. I may be the only available figure of authority down there by dint of being the driver, but I don't actually have any more authority than anyone else on that train. These numpties are generally bullies and rely on being louder and more offensive than everyone else to assert their dominance. It often takes just one person to take a stand for others to speak up too and show these bullies that they are not intimidated. Experience shows that they soon pipe down.
I must confess though, that the topic title has got my back up. Some of the things that you and others describe as "shocking behaviour" by rail staff is completely outside of our jurisdiction anyway.
O L Leigh
This is a very hypothetical situation, at the end of the day if something is that serious that a 999 call would need to be made, I am sure someone with a phone would not object to it being used, so let's forget the 'theft' argument!
As for calling BTP - last time we saw trespassers at Clay Cross, tried to call BTP and got no answer.
BTW, get the regional BTP numbers stored in your phone if you don't want to pay the bill for the 0800 number.
As for calling BTP - last time we saw trespassers at Clay Cross, tried to call BTP and got no answer.
BTW, get the regional BTP numbers stored in your phone if you don't want to pay the bill for the 0800 number.
Only in trial areas. And if you are threatened surely it is urgent....
Not disturbing the police is an attitude which one gets through parental example and also by being part of a group which is ridiculed by the police, or by a bad experience with the police. Those who are used to police contact feel happier calling them out.
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or get a decent contract.........
As some of you may or may not know I have been in a situation where I needed the BTP/Police on a c2c coming into Fenchurch street. Instead me and the person who I was with legged it to the barrier staff and told them which was then followed in 10+ police cars screeching to a halt outside. But If I had the BTP number I would of rang it.
On the other hand I could of ran up to the drivers door and asked him not to open the doors at Fenchurch Street but I felt that would of been a failed attempt as the chances are he would of thought I was just mucking about.
In the end I got 90% justice on the fools. One of them got a way.
I've changed it to 'Shocking behaviour'.
O L Leigh
Established Member
It's the "shocking behaviour" bit that I had the issue with. The thread is clearly about the actions (or absence) of rail staff, but this does not constitute "shocking behaviour".
Sorry.
O L Leigh
Definately! If I felt unsafe, I wouldn't want to be pulling out electronics, and then ringing police within their hearing range.
Most of the time when I feel threatened is when I can't really move, as any amount of noise or movement will attract the troublemakers' attention to youself.
I apologise.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Apology not really necessary. I just felt I needed to explain why I'm getting so hot and bothered about it.
O L Leigh
O L Leigh
Move away, don't look at them whilst doing it. Move out of sight if possible then call...
Of course, but you're not always in a situation where that's possible.
exactly. I would argue that is what many passenegrs will view PASSCOM as being for....
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