Aviation Discussion

[atillathehunn]

Looking at flights to China for the autumn. Anyone got any recommendations between Hainan from Manchester, BA from LBA via LHR or KLM / China Southern from LBA via AMS. Thanks.

Would tend to favour Hainan. Service is fine, timings quite convenient if you're going to Beijing, though perhaps not if you're coming over from Yorkshire (major assumption based on you otherwise flying from LBA).

KLM / China Southern - mixed reviews on China Southern. They were awful to my friend who travelled on crutches recently, which has marred my view of them slightly.

BA - T5-T5 transfer not bad but not great (I think most China flights are out of T5? Someone please confirm). On board service hit and miss.

 

[atillathehunn]

Flew from Edinburgh to Cardiff on Wednesday - hammered down on an Embraer 195 in 50 minutes .....I love it

Unfortunately the return leg last night the 2045 from Cardiff to Glasgow was late and diverted to Prestwick - it hammered up in an hour but then we were bussed to Glasgow and dumped at Midnight with no Flybe Staff in sight.

Poor Butts consequently missed the last train from Glasgow to Falkirk and had to fork out £70 for a Taxi from Glasgow Airport to Falkirk. Any other time of the day I would have been okay to get back

Thrown myself on the mercy of Flybe to help towards the taxi cost. If only they had diverted to Edinburgh I would have been okay

Ouch! Unfortunately they are obliged to get you to the ticketed destination and no further. If you arrived at the destination >3 hours late you are eligible for EU261 but doesn't seem to be the case here. You can throw yourself on their mercy and ask for the £70 but I wouldn't be confident. If you're an Avios rewards member they might chuck a few of those your way, though, as a goodwill gesture.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ouch! Unfortunately they are obliged to get you to the ticketed destination and no further. If you arrived at the destination >3 hours late you are eligible for EU261 but doesn't seem to be the case here. You can throw yourself on their mercy and ask for the £70 but I wouldn't be confident. If you're an Avios rewards member they might chuck a few of those your way, though, as a goodwill gesture.

Consensus on Flyertalk is that the airline is responsible for taking the passenger to the ticketed airport.

Butts may need to refer to EC261 to force this.

 

[atillathehunn]

Consensus on Flyertalk is that the airline is responsible for taking the passenger to the ticketed airport.

Butts may need to refer to EC261 to force this.

How would EC/261 apply here?

 

[Butts]

Consensus on Flyertalk is that the airline is responsible for taking the passenger to the ticketed airport.

Butts may need to refer to EC261 to force this.

I think the key is the time of arrival - ie Midnight.
Any other arrival time would not have been a problem. Plus there were no Flybe Staff there and there handling agents told me to get a taxi.

Remember this is not just a late arrival but to a different Airport that caused the problem.

 

[Butts]

How would EC/261 apply here?

I am not claiming under EC261 - just that their actions caused me to be stranded at Midnight and there were no Flybe Staff at Cardiff, Prestwick or Glasgow to help passengers.

 

[AlterEgo]

How would EC/261 apply here?

See: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25940160-post4.html

Ignore the fact that it is BA being talked about; the post is there to assist with interpreting EC261 and the right to care from whatever airline. This issue is separate from the fixed blocks of compensation for delays over x hours. etc

Q11: I have been offered a flight landing at LGW instead of LHR (or GLA instead of EDI). Do I have to accept it and who pays for the transport from LGW to LHR (or GLA to EDI)?

A11: The Regulation contemplates that a passenger may be carried to an alternative airport serving the same town, city or region but is silent on whether the passenger has to accept such alternative. In practice, unless the original airport is no longer served by BA (eg: a service is switched from LHR to LGW), BA will normally offer a reroute to the originai airport if the passenger wishes. If a passenger is offered re-routing to an alternate airport and accepts it, the airline will have to provide onward transportation to the original destination airport or to another close-by destination agreed with the passenger at no additional cost to the latter. If the airline does not make transport arrangements, the passenger should be able to claim reimbursement of the cost of the bus/train/taxi as appropriate.
The situation is greyer when the passenger takes the initiative of suggesting a change of destination (eg: offers to take a flight to GLA or NCL rather than EDI and make his/her own way from GLA or NCL to EDI). It is likely that, in that situation, the airline could legitimately ask the passenger to bear his or her own onward transportation costs from the airport (NCL in this example) as long as the airline did offer re-routing to the original airport.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am not claiming under EC261 - just that their actions caused me to be stranded at Midnight and there were no Flybe Staff at Cardiff, Prestwick or Glasgow to help passengers.

You do not have to claim compensation but the regulation is clear that you should be given appropriate "care" in these situations, and if that does not happen and you organised the "care" yourself, the airline should refund.

 

[atillathehunn]

See: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25940160-post4.html

Ignore the fact that it is BA being talked about; the post is there to assist with interpreting EC261 and the right to care from whatever airline. This issue is separate from the fixed blocks of compensation for delays over x hours. etc

Right, but that's when the ticketed destination is LGW and they landed at LHR (or vv.). In this case they diverted to PIK and were bussed to Glasgow (Butts doesn't say whether airport or city centre).

I think from there the question is where does Duty of Care (different paragraph in the Article) stop? At ticketed destination? If so, it appears to have been met based on first reading.

 

[AlterEgo]

Right, but that's when the ticketed destination is LGW and they landed at LHR (or vv.). In this case they diverted to PIK and were bussed to Glasgow (Butts doesn't say whether airport or city centre).

I think from there the question is where does Duty of Care (different paragraph in the Article) stop? At ticketed destination? If so, it appears to have been met based on first reading.

The key is in the "or to another close by destination agreed with the passenger" - if Butts did not ask to be conveyed, for example, to the station so he could make his train then it is unclear what, if anything he is legally due.

However, I think he has a good case to submit reasonable expenses for refund, even if EC261 ends up not strictly covering him.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Thanks for the advice.

Would tend to favour Hainan. Service is fine, timings quite convenient if you're going to Beijing, though perhaps not if you're coming over from Yorkshire (major assumption based on you otherwise flying from LBA).

11am departure is not bad, I'd just stay in a hotel the night before. Not sure about the 5am arrival time, but at least I would get a day to recover from jet lag before going back to work.

A lot depends on exactly how many holiday days I have left, might have to fly on a Sunday and Hainan don't operate their flight on a Sunday.

BA - T5-T5 transfer not bad but not great (I think most China flights are out of T5? Someone please confirm). On board service hit and miss.

I think all BA flights use T5 now. Going outbound to USA etc. I have found it pretty easy, but coming back can be a crap shoot as to how busy security is and it can be very hectic.


I've noticed Finnair coming up as an option for a 1 changer from Manchester, they use the A350 too (is that a good thing?) has anyone used Helsinki for a transfer?

 

[atillathehunn]

The key is in the "or to another close by destination agreed with the passenger" - if Butts did not ask to be conveyed, for example, to the station so he could make his train then it is unclear what, if anything he is legally due.

However, I think he has a good case to submit reasonable expenses for refund, even if EC261 ends up not strictly covering him.

I did suggest he stick a claim in. I'm just a bit unclear on reading the article about whether he's going to get the money back.

 

[atillathehunn]

Thanks for the advice.



11am departure is not bad, I'd just stay in a hotel the night before. Not sure about the 5am arrival time, but at least I would get a day to recover from jet lag before going back to work.



I think all BA flights use T5, so that wouldn't be an issue.

Nope. Accra, Barcelona, Bilbao, Budapest, Cape Town, Chania, Denver, Gibralter, Helsinki, Las Vegas, Lisbon, Luxembourg, Lyon, Marseille, Miami, Nairobi, Phoenix, Prague, Vancouver, Vienna, Warsaw all depart from T3 for British Airways. None of their China flights do, though, so you're fine.

5am is rough, but you do depart at around 1am, so you're going to be going to sleep (I hope, for your sake) on the flight and waking up in the morning UK time.

 

[berneyarms]

The key is in the "or to another close by destination agreed with the passenger" - if Butts did not ask to be conveyed, for example, to the station so he could make his train then it is unclear what, if anything he is legally due.

However, I think he has a good case to submit reasonable expenses for refund, even if EC261 ends up not strictly covering him.

I don't think this is the same though.

The aircraft diverted en route to Prestwick for whatever reason - it wasn't a case of the flight being cancelled and him being offered an alternative flight.

The airline then bussed the passengers to Glasgow airport from Prestwick which is where their duty of care ceases.

Unfortunately butts' ticket is to Glasgow Airport - not to his home railway station or any other railway station for that matter. The taxi fare I'm afraid is irrelevant.

If butts finally arrived at Glasgow Airport on the bus less than 3 hours late I don't see the airline having any further responsibility unfortunately. If he/she arrived there more than 3 hours late then they will be entitled to compensation under EU rules.

Re Airline staff - most airlines don't have their own staff at airports these days - just their handling agents. You have to go through their customer service departments in the event of delays etc.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

5am is rough, but you do depart at around 1am, so you're going to be going to sleep (I hope, for your sake) on the flight and waking up in the morning UK time.

It is the odd thing with long hauls, you know what time you will arrive but have no idea what time your body will think it is.

Looking back at my notes, my flight with Malaysian from KL to LHR a few years ago similarly arrived at about 6am after an 11pm depature. I just recall being tremendously hungry and very tired by about 6pm that evening, but otherwise no major issues.

 

[Butts]

I don't think this is the same though.

The aircraft diverted en route to Prestwick for whatever reason - it wasn't a case of the flight being cancelled and him being offered an alternative flight.

The airline then bussed the passengers to Glasgow airport from Prestwick which is where their duty of care ceases.

Unfortunately butts' ticket is to Glasgow Airport - not to his home railway station or any other railway station for that matter. The taxi fare I'm afraid is irrelevant.

If butts finally arrived at Glasgow Airport on the bus less than 3 hours late I don't see the airline having any further responsibility unfortunately. If he/she arrived there more than 3 hours late then they will be entitled to compensation under EU rules.

Re Airline staff - most airlines don't have their own staff at airports these days - just their handling agents. You have to go through their customer service departments in the event of delays etc.

Normally I would agree with you but the arrival time in Glasgow at Midnight certainly reduces the options for onward travel.

Had the Aircraft gone to it's original destination (Glasgow) I would have still made it even running as late as it was.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Normally I would agree with you but the arrival time in Glasgow at Midnight certainly reduces the options for onward travel.

Had the Aircraft gone to it's original destination (Glasgow) I would have still made it even running as late as it was.

It is definitely worth pursuing - no harm in trying - but the legalise suggests that it would be a goodwill gesture from the airline, rather than any legal requirement for them to provide compensation.

I have found that sending a formal e-mail or letter, but following up a couple of weeks later via twitter seems to work well.

Of course, some airports are more affected by this than others - some airports have 24 hour links to the main cities, others might shut off after scheduled arrival of the last flight

 

[berneyarms]

Normally I would agree with you but the arrival time in Glasgow at Midnight certainly reduces the options for onward travel.

Had the Aircraft gone to it's original destination (Glasgow) I would have still made it even running as late as it was.

But airlines operate flights into airports up to midnight or indeed later seven days a week. If they were to be expected to pay for passengers' onward connections where flights arrived at midnight rather than say 22:30, they'd be paying out a lot of money overall.

They don't owe you a duty of care beyond getting you to the destination airport unfortunately. What you do beyond the airport is your business - I'm not trying to be harsh, just realistic.

By all means have a go, but I think that you have to realise that what you do when you get to the airport is beyond the scope of the contract between the two parties.

If they got you to Glasgow Airport more than three hours late then there would possibly be compensation due.

 

[atillathehunn]

It is the odd thing with long hauls, you know what time you will arrive but have no idea what time your body will think it is.

Looking back at my notes, my flight with Malaysian from KL to LHR a few years ago similarly arrived at about 6am after an 11pm depature. I just recall being tremendously hungry and very tired by about 6pm that evening, but otherwise no major issues.

I like the timings of the return flights from Asia - like you I found myself starving in the evening but actually sleep wise not badly off - though needing more sleep than usual.

I found the outbound quite terrible. Leaving at lunchtime they switch you to local time, enforcing window shades down to simulate night. I found I couldn't sleep particularly as it was lunchtime, and landing in HK first thing in the morning for a full day with basically no sleep.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Regarding multiple time-zone shifts on long distance journeys. As a general rule it is much easier to adjust after a westbound journey than an eastbound one. After arrival you stay in-sync with the local time for as long as possible before collapsing into a long deep sleep. Depending on how many time-zones you have traversed it can be possible to get over westbound jetlag in just a day. Transatlantic schedules fit this method pretty well. Eastbound is a different kettle of fish and 10-12 hour shifts (eg UK to Aus/NZ either way) are absolute killers though the length of journey is an additional factor.

 

[fowler9]

Regarding multiple time-zone shifts on long distance journeys. As a general rule it is much easier to adjust after a westbound journey than an eastbound one. After arrival you stay in-sync with the local time for as long as possible before collapsing into a long deep sleep. Depending on how many time-zones you have traversed it can be possible to get over westbound jetlag in just a day. Transatlantic schedules fit this method pretty well. Eastbound is a different kettle of fish and 10-12 hour shifts (eg UK to Aus/NZ either way) are absolute killers though the length of journey is an additional factor.

Auckland to Santiago near crippled me but lashings of ale and the fact it was a leisure trip helped. Took me about a day to recover.

 

[atillathehunn]

Auckland to Santiago near crippled me but lashings of ale and the fact it was a leisure trip helped. Took me about a day to recover.

I found the reverse: if travelling for work you're forced into the routine of the destination country. On leisure trips I found I could wallow about as much as I wanted in jetlag without forcing myself to adapt as quickly.

 

[fowler9]

I found the reverse: if travelling for work you're forced into the routine of the destination country. On leisure trips I found I could wallow about as much as I wanted in jetlag without forcing myself to adapt as quickly.

I think the taking a day to recover was more to do with my alcohol consumption than with jet lag. It was Christmas Eve, we had crossed the International Date Line, I had a "couple" of beers. I don't think my ex was very impressed. Ha ha. I enjoyed the experience. She went to bed in the hostel in Santiago, I went out and had another "couple" of beers with some local Chileans in Santiago. I felt rough on Christmas Day. I'm not really a Christmas person though, I was just enjoying the bizarre experience.

 

[atillathehunn]

I think the taking a day to recover was more to do with my alcohol consumption than with jet lag. It was Christmas Eve, we had crossed the International Date Line, I had a "couple" of beers. I don't think my ex was very impressed. Ha ha. I enjoyed the experience. She went to bed in the hostel in Santiago, I went out and had another "couple" of beers with some local Chileans in Santiago. I felt rough on Christmas Day. I'm not really a Christmas person though, I was just enjoying the bizarre experience.

Sounds like a good one! So going that way round you get 2 Christmas Eves?

 

[fowler9]

Sounds like a good one! So going that way round you get 2 Christmas Eves?

Not really 2, just one really long one. Took off from Auckland at 4 in the afternoon on Christmas Eve, landed at Santiago at 11 in the morning on Christmas Eve about 13 hours later. Ha ha. Plenty of Champagne on the flight, not a massive fan but it was free and I drank it. Hell of a hangover on Christmas day. 13 hours on an LAN A340 and flying over parts of the Antarctic almost plus crossing the international date line was possibly the best Christmas present I'll ever get. Remember my dad phoning me on the plane just before phones off time in Auckland. Quite the most incredible experience I ever had and possibly ever will have.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like the timings of the return flights from Asia - like you I found myself starving in the evening but actually sleep wise not badly off - though needing more sleep than usual.

I found the outbound quite terrible. Leaving at lunchtime they switch you to local time, enforcing window shades down to simulate night. I found I couldn't sleep particularly as it was lunchtime, and landing in HK first thing in the morning for a full day with basically no sleep.

I get sick of the window blind thing, as I always prefer a long day than attempting to badly sleep on an aircraft. As there are multiple cabins in an aircraft, I wonder why they never consider having an "awake cabin" and an "asleep cabin". You could also consider not allowing young children in the latter due to their tendency to be noisy.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I get sick of the window blind thing, as I always prefer a long day than attempting to badly sleep on an aircraft. As there are multiple cabins in an aircraft, I wonder why they never consider having an "awake cabin" and an "asleep cabin". You could also consider not allowing young children in the latter due to their tendency to be noisy.

Few airliners have more than two separate areas of economy seating and the proportion of children on long flights is subject to considerable seasonal variation. You're banging your head against a brick wall with this one!

 

[fowler9]

I get sick of the window blind thing, as I always prefer a long day than attempting to badly sleep on an aircraft. As there are multiple cabins in an aircraft, I wonder why they never consider having an "awake cabin" and an "asleep cabin". You could also consider not allowing young children in the latter due to their tendency to be noisy.

It would be pretty hard to arrange. No mater how comfortable and modern the plane it is a lot of people with different opinions crammed in to a small space.

 

[ModernRailways]

Hey all! I have a flight coming up to JFK. I've previously been to the US and my ESTA is valid till April so I'll already have left by the time it expires. My friend, however, has never travelled there before. Last time I was there the ushers(?) in the immigration line told me I had to use the returning visitors queue and my friend stay in the new visitors queue - I was with a different person on there first trip and so we separated until after leaving the arrivals halls. This year we can't split up, because my friend would get overwhelmed.

Can my friend use the machines that I would use as a returning visitor, get an 'X' marked on and then go to the queue with me that way? Or should I just insist and stay in the normal queue for first time visitors?

We also have an hour and a half change time from T5 to T3 in Heathrow which is bound to be fun - I called BA to see if they could let us travel on the earlier flight from Newcastle (same cost) and they told me no and that we'd 'just have to run through.'

 

[atillathehunn]

Hey all! I have a flight coming up to JFK. I've previously been to the US and my ESTA is valid till April so I'll already have left by the time it expires. My friend, however, has never travelled there before. Last time I was there the ushers(?) in the immigration line told me I had to use the returning visitors queue and my friend stay in the new visitors queue - I was with a different person on there first trip and so we separated until after leaving the arrivals halls. This year we can't split up, because my friend would get overwhelmed.

Can my friend use the machines that I would use as a returning visitor, get an 'X' marked on and then go to the queue with me that way? Or should I just insist and stay in the normal queue for first time visitors?

We also have an hour and a half change time from T5 to T3 in Heathrow which is bound to be fun - I called BA to see if they could let us travel on the earlier flight from Newcastle (same cost) and they told me no and that we'd 'just have to run through.'

That flight connection is going to be plenty of time assuming flights are on time, or even up to about 40 minutes late.

As for US immigration - no one here is an authority on what they are going to allow, but I would imagine they will split you up as before. You may be able to plead special circumstances but I wouldn't take it for granted.