Aviation Discussion

[Shaw S Hunter]

It makes you wonder what the point of BA is.

I shall go further than dcsprior and me123 and suggest that the point of BA is to make serious profits on trans-Atlantic traffic. One of its key marketing points is that it flies direct to more North American destinations than any other carrier across the Atlantic and this is particularly useful for trips to the US.

Consider Austin or San Diego, both thriving business centres, and both served by BA direct from Heathrow. From elsewhere in Europe you can fly from a local airport to a US hub to connect forward or fly via Heathrow. The problem with the former is the hassle of having to first pass through US Customs and Immigration which can often be a lengthy process for non-US passport holders. This means having to allow quite a margin for the connection which extends the journey time. All the terminal investment at Heathrow means that the comparative experience will tend to be better via Heathrow. And on arrival in the US once clearing arrival formalities your only source of anxiety is whether the TSA has taken a dislike to your baggage. Which is also true, only twice over, for the alternative routeing. So business travelers, who pay the higher fares, will often find BA via Heathrow is a very good option. And the sheer frequency that BA can provide both eastbound and westbound from Heathrow, largely as a result of inheriting UK flag carrier status, means it can maintain a considerable network largely on the back of trans-Atlantic profits.

 

[Techniquest]

Romanian low-cost airline Blue Air is launching a base at Liverpool Airport next year and plans to offer new services to Milan, Rome, Hamburg and Alicante, in addition to its existing Romanian services, in direct and indirect competition against Ryanair, easyJet and Wizzair services from Liverpool, Manchester and Doncaster-Sheffield.

http://www.bqlive.co.uk/2016/10/11/blue-air-brings-flights-and-jobs-to-liverpool/

The airline doesn't charge for carry on luggage and offers complimentary meals and drinks on some services, fares can undercut Ryanair and Wizzair.

Interesting, worth bearing that in mind for a possible trip to winner country Italy if nothing else. Thanks for posting this news, I'll investigate the link later

 

[AlterEgo]

Here's a classic weight and balance accident. Both crew died.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19990112-0

Full list of weight and balance accidents:

https://aviation-safety.net/database/events/dblist.php?Event=CGC

 

[atillathehunn]

It's been said on here before it looks like BA was committing short-haul suicide.

No, a free stale croissant and orange juice wasn't the deal breaker. Their continued and relentless stream of 'enhancements' was though. I've said before, they have dropped well below the level of their competition now. A fairly regular journey for me is Manchester to Amman. So not quite short, but mid-haul, though EasyJet used to call there. I could do Lufthansa and get cold meals, but food and drink nonetheless.
I could go Turkish (preferred route), and get brilliant food.
I could go BA and get a crisp.
Hmmmm.

Feeding their network is one thing. But offer a SN style service with something flown in for the poor sods doing long-haul off their short-haul before the tin rocket buckeroo game over central Africa. If the long-haul flight is an overnight I have plenty of time in the day time to take an LCC to the cheapest departure hub and self-protect.

Both Sleasy and Ryanair were talking about offering connections, which is going to blow BA out of the water.

Heathrow is a component of their logic, with this being a tipping point for some customers. But if that logic held completely true there would be no other enormously busy London airports, but there are.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That's not true now, is it? The only charge I can see where BA is higher than easyJet (to take just one LCC) is the credit card surcharge (£5 vs £3.48).

Most of the charges are higher. If you're on a basic fare the standard seat allocation fee is £10- Ryanair charge as little as £5- and the hold baggage fee is £25 domestic up to £40 for Greece and Russia. BA charge up to £50 for an exit row seat.

All higher than the LCCs.

If you buy a Flex fare you get these things thrown in, but then BA's base fares are usually higher than the LCC fare, so the point still stands.

Short-haul, BA are just a LCC that isn't low cost. What's the point?

 

[atillathehunn]

Most of the charges are higher. If you're on a basic fare the standard seat allocation fee is £10- Ryanair charge as little as £5- and the hold baggage fee is £25 domestic up to £40 for Greece and Russia. BA charge up to £50 for an exit row seat.

All higher than the LCCs.

If you buy a Flex fare you get these things thrown in, but then BA's base fares are usually higher than the LCC fare, so the point still stands.

Short-haul, BA are just a LCC that isn't low cost. What's the point?

I just checked in for an FR flight and they slashed seat reservation fee to €3.50. I think they have a flexible policy for this, it varies flight to flight for me. But I believe they will have lowered their price since competition (BA) entered the LCC market.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yeah, Ryanair are a difficult airline to pin down for comparisons because they have, as far as I can tell, developed dynamic pricing across all the different additional fees, not just dynamic pricing on the fare itself. I've seen seat reservation charges as low as EUR3 on the late night Newcastle-Dublin flight, which is way below what they list as a fee anywhere. Similar with priority boarding and with hold luggage fees.

Which again is another reason why I think BA are making a mistake in going out to compete with Ryanair and EasyJet on price. They're playing with the big boys and Cruz proved he couldn't manage that with Vueling...

 

[me123]

Most of the charges are higher. If you're on a basic fare the standard seat allocation fee is £10

Which is usually the cost of the "plus" fare, which includes not only seat allocation, but baggage and flexibility. If seat allocation was important to you, you'd purchase that fare in the first place rather than paying for seat allocation subsequently. Whilst the plus fare only allows seat allocation at check-in, anyone who was desperate to get a window seat will still manage without any issues.

and the hold baggage fee is £25 domestic up to £40 for Greece and Russia.

This is true, but ignores that fact that purchasing the "plus" fare is usually cheaper than this. And includes seat allocation and flexibility. In fact, you can't seem to purchase baggage separately at the start. The vast majority of people will be aware if they need luggage before they book, so will opt for the plus fare. Also, BAs hand luggage allowance is more generous than most LCCs, so you may be less likely to need hold luggage in the first place.

BA charge up to £50 for an exit row seat.

The £50 charge covers "longer international flights". In these markets, there is no LCC competition and exit row seats are more prized by travellers who may be spending in excess of 10 hours on an aircraft. That's different to easyJet and Ryanair and is clearly not directly comparable.

All higher than the LCCs.

Still not true - see above.

Short-haul, BA are just a LCC that isn't low cost. What's the point?

They connect through a hub at Heathrow. The vast majority of LCCs do not offer any connections. As has already been explained, their domestic routes do not exist to serve the domestic market, rather they exist to feed into their long haul network. The fact that they charge for extras has nothing to do with their reason for existing. However, as I have already demonstrated, their domestic routes actually do offer value for money on many occasions, and I would suggest that passengers looking to save money investigate all reasonable options. I find very frequently that the LCCs are not the cheapest. I've seen that quite a few times on BA between Scotland and London, and also with flights to Amsterdam. Many people wonder why people pay more to fly on legacy airlines, but I really wonder why some people pay to fly more on a budget carrier because they assume that BA is out of their price range.

 

[Techniquest]

I have never found a BA flight for less than Ryanair or Easyjet, although it doesn't help that BA don't like Birmingham so I don't really have much opportunity to use them!

Besides, if I can get a short notice flight from Stansted to Edinburgh with Ryanair for £31, even with the ching getting to Stansted (I was in the London area already so not a big amount) it would have been severely unlikely to get a cheaper fare with BA. There's also the fact that I like Ryanair, so more than happy to fly with them!

 

[me123]

I have never found a BA flight for less than Ryanair or Easyjet, although it doesn't help that BA don't like Birmingham so I don't really have much opportunity to use them!

It's quite frequently the case that BA are on a par with easyJet. Have a look at Glasgow to Gatwick 20th of October - BA is half the price at time of writing (presumably this is a fluke and something seems to be triggering high demand on that day, but it has happened). Ryanair probably now trump them on the domestic market more often than not. Since FR's domestic flights operate to Stansted only, it could be argued to be a separate market from Heathrow and Gatwick to some extent. Someone traveling to South West London would probably not choose to fly to Stansted. Similarly of course, you'd be foolish to fly BA if you were traveling to Cambridge or North East London. It's very hard to directly compare on domestic flights to London because there's not that much direct competition.

 

[Butts]

Well had my trip to Paris today with my Son from BHX for the Motorshow.

Embraer 195 both ways and blagged free exit seats from the "machine" by checking in at the Airport. 15A/B

Weird occurrence Pilot aborted the landing at CDG on the way out due to heavy fog at the lower level. Surely an Embraer 195 can be landed in autopilot mode rendering the weather irrelevant. Or is this related to Flybes Embraers being unable to land at London City due to missing some piece of kit.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Consider Austin or San Diego, both thriving business centres, and both served by BA direct from Heathrow. From elsewhere in Europe you can fly from a local airport to a US hub to connect forward or fly via Heathrow. The problem with the former is the hassle of having to first pass through US Customs and Immigration which can often be a lengthy process for non-US passport holders. This means having to allow quite a margin for the connection which extends the journey time.

Phoenix is a good one too, only BA in Europe fly there direct, main access for the Grand Canyon region. When we did this back in 2014, a good proportion of those on the flight seemed to be from France and Germany, presumably flying into Heathrow on a Euro-flight to connect.



The other advantage of BA on Euro length flights is that their service is more regular and better timed. Many LCCs fly routes two or three times a week only and many of them operate very early or late only. BA flights are more often daily and with middle of the day times which makes it much easier to organise a trip around.

We are flying BA next month to Kiev (because they were cheaper than UI) and back from Bucharest (because only their flight connected with a Manchester flight so I can get home on the same day).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Weird occurrence Pilot aborted the landing at CDG on the way out due to heavy fog at the lower level. Surely an Embraer 195 can be landed in autopilot mode rendering the weather irrelevant. Or is this related to Flybes Embraers being unable to land at London City due to missing some piece of kit.

Oddly enough, a plane can autoland in near zero visibility, but fog does cause serious issues for ground movements, which are still done on sight. So it might have been that the plane could land but couldn't have gone anywhere once it did, resulting in a closed airport.

It's also possible there was an autoland fault on either the aircraft or airport - this isn't a reason to take out of service.

 

[Butts]

Oddly enough, a plane can autoland in near zero visibility, but fog does cause serious issues for ground movements, which are still done on sight. So it might have been that the plane could land but couldn't have gone anywhere once it did, resulting in a closed airport.

It's also possible there was an autoland fault on either the aircraft or airport - this isn't a reason to take out of service.

It was clear on the ground so I'm not sure why it happened.

 

[AlterEgo]

It was clear on the ground so I'm not sure why it happened.

The aircraft has to have auto land enabled during the descent to actually safely land automatically. You can't just ping the button on at 200 feet and put your feet up.

What likely happened is a low cloud unexpectedly obstructed the glideslope making a landing unfavourable.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is true, but ignores that fact that purchasing the "plus" fare is usually cheaper than this. And includes seat allocation and flexibility. In fact, you can't seem to purchase baggage separately at the start. The vast majority of people will be aware if they need luggage before they book, so will opt for the plus fare. Also, BAs hand luggage allowance is more generous than most LCCs, so you may be less likely to need hold luggage in the first place.

BA and Ryanair- who also allow the second piece of hand luggage- are about the same now, although the likes of Wizz are obviously much worse.

The £50 charge covers "longer international flights". In these markets, there is no LCC competition and exit row seats are more prized by travellers

Norwegian Air Shuttle charge less...

As has already been explained, their domestic routes do not exist to serve the domestic market, rather they exist to feed into their long haul network.

That is a fair point, which then immediately makes me wonder what the point of buy-on-board actually is. It just cheapens the long-haul product, making people more likely to choose different carriers.

It's just a mess.

 

[AlterEgo]

BA and Ryanair- who also allow the second piece of hand luggage- are about the same now, although the likes of Wizz are obviously much worse.



Norwegian Air Shuttle charge less...



That is a fair point, which then immediately makes me wonder what the point of buy-on-board actually is. It just cheapens the long-haul product, making people more likely to choose different carriers.

It's just a mess.

It is very strange.

I rather suspect - like some - that BA will introduce a "Club UK" cabin on domestic routes, primarily to retain a "premium experience" for connecting long haul passengers in Business or First.

 

[atillathehunn]

Phoenix is a good one too, only BA in Europe fly there direct, main access for the Grand Canyon region. When we did this back in 2014, a good proportion of those on the flight seemed to be from France and Germany, presumably flying into Heathrow on a Euro-flight to connect.



The other advantage of BA on Euro length flights is that their service is more regular and better timed. Many LCCs fly routes two or three times a week only and many of them operate very early or late only. BA flights are more often daily and with middle of the day times which makes it much easier to organise a trip around.

We are flying BA next month to Kiev (because they were cheaper than UI) and back from Bucharest (because only their flight connected with a Manchester flight so I can get home on the same day).

This frequency vs bredth argument is interesting.

While BA fly frequently within Europe, which can be useful in the event of IRROPS, the LCCs often have a broader coverage. It gives another bite of the cherry, and they often link in with long distance buses.

Look at the MAN-CRL flight. Fair number heading to Brussels by train, makes sense. But then look at the numbers that pour onto the Luxembourg bus. Too early to say how Flymaybe's new LUX flight from MAN will affect things.

And with the really core routes, where competition makes a big difference there are heavy schedules. MAN-AMS is a core route, I've never been on an empty flight on that route the 60+ times I've been that way. Flybe, Easy, KLM fighting for direct, BA via LHR. While not the frequency from the London airports cumulatively, it's an intensive schedule. Same goes for cities like Dublin, the core German cities in the West, as well as others.

BA need to think very carefully; is it worth mud wrestling with pigs? Ryanair et al. are very good at what they do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Sleasy make it to LHR at any point, and I suspect they will as it is well known they want to, it might actually be genuinely worth BA abandoning domestic entirely and signing a codeshare agreement.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I rather suspect - like some - that BA will introduce a "Club UK" cabin on domestic routes, primarily to retain a "premium experience" for connecting long haul passengers in Business or First.

I think they're going to have to give more to the Business UK passengers, although I'd be more interested in what is happening in Club Europe.

But I'm even talking about economy passengers connecting off long-haul. These are the passengers least likely to have been able to buy in the airport before boarding, and sticking charges of nearly a fiver for a cup of tea and a KitKat on the last leg just devalues the whole product.

Heading east you have Emirates (who, incidentally, have just started charging for seat allocations before check-in in Economy for Saver ticket holders) from Glasgow, Newcastle, Manchester and Birmingham, you have Etihad from Manchester and Edinburgh and you have Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines from Manchester. Heading west Virgin Atlantic and Delta from Manchester, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

You've already got the risk of IRROPS if you go via Heathrow instead of taking the direct flight. I just don't understand.

 

[atillathehunn]

I think they're going to have to give more to the Business UK passengers, although I'd be more interested in what is happening in Club Europe.

But I'm even talking about economy passengers connecting off long-haul. These are the passengers least likely to have been able to buy in the airport before boarding, and sticking charges of nearly a fiver for a cup of tea and a KitKat on the last leg just devalues the whole product.

Heading east you have Emirates (who, incidentally, have just started charging for seat allocations before check-in in Economy for Saver ticket holders) from Glasgow, Newcastle, Manchester and Birmingham, you have Etihad from Manchester and Edinburgh and you have Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines from Manchester. Heading west Virgin Atlantic and Delta from Manchester, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

You've already got the risk of IRROPS if you go via Heathrow instead of taking the direct flight. I just don't understand.

Don't forget Qatar (OneWorld, no less), United, Thomas Cook (I think you can book a ticket on them without a holiday, never tried), PIA.


The no cash rule is a further kick in the teeth for those new to the country or returning after a while who might not have an appropriate card, or a card which doesn't levy a huge fee.

Apparently one of BA's biggest flows out of Manchester are people heading to HK (either dest or transit), and rumour mill says Cathay going daily soon with a better product.

 

[fowler9]

Don't forget Qatar (OneWorld, no less), United, Thomas Cook (I think you can book a ticket on them without a holiday, never tried), PIA.


The no cash rule is a further kick in the teeth for those new to the country or returning after a while who might not have an appropriate card, or a card which doesn't levy a huge fee.

Apparently one of BA's biggest flows out of Manchester are people heading to HK (either dest or transit), and rumour mill says Cathay going daily soon with a better product.

If Cathay had been flying out of Manchester when I did my round the world trip I would have been chuffed. I don't think they were sadly (I bloody hope they weren't because I missed out if so). That said I got my first ever 747 flight from Heathrow to Hong Kong which was nice (Scabby as the aircraft was). That said I would have got a 747 on the next flight anyway, VH-OEB in Grand Prix colours from Hong Kong to Melbourne.

 

[atillathehunn]

If Cathay had been flying out of Manchester when I did my round the world trip I would have been chuffed. I don't think they were sadly (I bloody hope they weren't because I missed out if so). That said I got my first ever 747 flight from Heathrow to Hong Kong which was nice (Scabby as the aircraft was). That said I would have got a 747 on the next flight anyway, VH-OEB in Grand Prix colours from Hong Kong to Melbourne.

I think they've had a 13 year hiatus from Manchester, but I don't remember where I read that.

It also wasn't non-stop. I believe it picked up in CDG.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I think they've had a 13 year hiatus from Manchester, but I don't remember where I read that.

It also wasn't non-stop. I believe it picked up in CDG.

The Cathay flight from Manchester had an en-route stop at various European airports, sometimes varying by day of the week. I once looked at the possibility of having a "joyride" to Frankfurt and back: it was horribly expensive!

 

[theageofthetra]

Does anyone know a way of finding out if the aircraft you are going to use still uses the old two prong headphone sockets? I have always assumed it was the older Boeing ones but have still found some Airbus that have them. For example I have three flights coming up LHR to Haneda via Amsterdam with KLM/Airfrance code share (should be a 777) Haneda to Kumamoto with ANA & Osaka - LHR again via Amsterdam. Subject to last minute changes what would normally be allocated to this route for the long haul legs & will I need to dig out my old two prong to 3.5mm headphone adapter!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think they've had a 13 year hiatus from Manchester, but I don't remember where I read that.

It also wasn't non-stop. I believe it picked up in CDG.

I'm not sure how long it was, but they pulled out in the early 2000s, allegedly under pressure from British Airways.

When I flew out to Australia in 1996 and 1999 it was on Cathay Pacific from Manchester via Hong Kong, on the 747. First time was via Amsterdam, second via CDG.

 

[Butts]

Flew down from Aberdeen to Birmingham yesterday with Flybe on a Q400 :cry:

I had forgotten how small the Security Area is at ABZ - imagine it could get quite congested if the Airport was busy.

Everyone knows how much I love Q400's but to be fair we hammered down in just over an hour. The Train would not even have been in Dundee after that length of time.

UK Domestic really comes into it's own once you start thinking of travelling the above sort of distances - especially when the ticket cost me less than £30 !!

 

[AlterEgo]

Flew down from Aberdeen to Birmingham yesterday with Flybe on a Q400 :cry:

I had forgotten how small the Security Area is at ABZ - imagine it could get quite congested if the Airport was busy.

Everyone knows how much I love Q400's but to be fair we hammered down in just over an hour. The Train would not even have been in Dundee after that length of time.

UK Domestic really comes into it's own once you start thinking of travelling the above sort of distances - especially when the ticket cost me less than £30 !!

Flybe are a really good airline. They aren't as cheap as they used to be though.

I wish BA still owned the Connect business, if only for the Avios and Tier Points...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Flybe are a really good airline

Flybe would be a really good airline if some of their routes (and it does seem to be specific ones) were not so terribly unpunctual and unreliable (hence "Flymaybe"). Mind you, that is a hangover from BA days on the routes they took on from BA - the BA Connect domestics from BHX were just as bad. I remember doing BHX<->AMS weekly about 6-7 years ago, and there was always a severe delay or cancellation on a BA Connect domestic of some description.

 

[Butts]

Flybe would be a really good airline if some of their routes (and it does seem to be specific ones) were not so terribly unpunctual and unreliable (hence "Flymaybe"). Mind you, that is a hangover from BA days on the routes they took on from BA - the BA Connect domestics from BHX were just as bad. I remember doing BHX<->AMS weekly about 6-7 years ago, and there was always a severe delay or cancellation on a BA Connect domestic of some description.

To be fair I use Flybe fairly frequently between Edinburgh/Glasgow and Birmingham and various other "domestic jollys" within the UK.

Tues 11th Oct EDI - BHX (30 Mins late Aircraft Change)

Weds 12th Oct BHX-CDG return both legs on time.

Thurs 13th Oct BHX-GLA on time.

Sun 16th Oct ABZ-BHX on time.

When BMI Baby went belly up I thought the fares between BHX and Scotland would skyrocket but to be fair with careful planning "legs" for under £30 can still be found. My Christmas travel GLA-BHX out 24/12 return 31/12 cost me about £70 booked earlier this year.

Their sales are often nonsense if you monitor the fares closely and become aware of the "going rate".

Stop Press....2040 BHX to EDI bang on time Monday Night.