Aviation Discussion

[Harbornite]

I thought this was interesting.

UK based Virgin Atlantic Airways has selected the A350-1000, the largest member of the A350 Family, to become the latest aircraft in its fleet, operating from both London Heathrow and Gatwick airports. The airline is purchasing eight A350-1000s for deliveries commencing in 2019, and four new aircraft on long term leases from ALC from 2020, including a lease "option" for a fifth aircraft.

The A350-1000 was selected after intense and detailed evaluation of the current and future alternatives. The airline will benefit from state-of-the-art technology and the latest cabin product innovations to satisfy the most exacting customer expectations. Airport operations and neighbouring communities will benefit from the use of an environmentally efficient aircraft with low pollution credentials and half the noise impact compared to rival aircraft.

The aircraft will be deployed initially at London Heathrow to strengthen the trans-Atlantic network on existing business routes, and subsequently at Gatwick airport on leisure routes to the Caribbean, where Virgin Atlantic will provide three classes of customer service in the A350s distinctive Airbus ‘Airspace’ cabin with roomy overhead bins and the latest concepts for ambience, comfort, service and design.

The United Kingdom Prime Minister David Cameron said, "I welcome the news of Virgin Atlantic's investment. As well as being good news for passengers, it's great news for jobs in the UK. The fantastic Airbus A350 is built in the UK, with Rolls-Royce engines and suppliers across the country. It's an investment in the UK itself, and our world-beating aerospace industry."

Craig Kreeger, CEO Virgin Atlantic said: “The size of this order demonstrates our absolute focus on investing in the future for our customers and our people, and confirms the strength of our business. The A350-1000 plays a pivotal role in our fleet programme, helping to create one of the youngest, cleanest, greenest fleets in the sky. We’re looking forward to introducing this aircraft to our customers, as its impressive economics, fuel performance, and quiet flying offer an irresistible proposition that makes long haul travel more enjoyable and better for the environment."
“This agreement allows Virgin Atlantic to set the standard on its network by being amongst the first airlines into service with the A350-1000, with an Airspace by Airbus cabin, offering superior comfort including industry leading 18" wide seats in‎ economy,” said Fabrice Brégier, Airbus President and Chief Executive Officer. “These modern, efficient A350s will complement Virgin Atlantic’s existing fleet of 10 A330-300s and offer Virgin Atlantic crews the advantage of familiarity with Airbus operating procedures around the network”

The world’s latest generation airliner, the A350 XWB, is the newest member of Airbus’ modern, comfortable & efficient widebody product family with 18” wide seating in economy. The long-range A350 XWB features the latest aerodynamic design, carbon fibre fuselage and wings for a lighter aircraft and quiet and low emission Rolls-Royce Trent XWB engines that together deliver a 25 per cent reduction in fuel burn. Together, these technologies translate into unrivalled levels of operational efficiency, with, lower environmental charges, and significantly reduced maintenance costs.

http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/p...ntic-selects-the-a350-as-its-future-flagship/


I know this is a superficial question, but which aircraft do you think looks better, the B787 or A350?

 

[atillathehunn]

Never flown to Frankfurt but am hoping to do the LAN 787 in the near future, I have a cousin who lives in Frankfurt and two friends in Spain so will hopefully hook up with them in Madrid, if not I will jump the train to Irun where they live. (My cousin in Frankfurt I will see there of course, ha ha).

JLA gets a fair bit of military traffic. I believe the pilots quite like flying down the river past the city centre. I don't think there is anywhere else in the country they can regularly fly low level past a city centre. We get a fair few Hawks, Tornados and the odd Typhoon going over. Actually saw 2 F15's circling over North Wales from my desk the other week. Also last year the Typhoon display aircraft for the Southport Airshow were based at JLA. I can see the planes taking off from my desk so that was pretty cool.
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Also the Trans Atlantic flights out of Manchester frequently come over South Liverpool so if the weather is clear we get very clearly visible Heavies at about 10 to 15000 feet depending on the route. Shame Virgin no longer use A340-600's to Atlanta. Mostly A330-300's now. Not as much fun.

Interesting. We get civilian stuff for LPL circling roughly over my parent's place, though never the military stuff. Can't say I've ever noticed any while being out and about in Liverpool. There was an Antonov in Manchester a few months ago - that's an impressive sight!

While there are no A340s, you do still see Jumbos taking off - and to my mind they are more iconic somehow. Sadly the Jumbos BA send to Nairobi are very ratty, though KLM send some rather tasty ones on the AMS-NBO route.

FRA is a nightmare! Avoid at all costs!

Don't bother with the LAN787 unless you can get a good business class deal between Frankfurt and Madrid. Definitely not worth it as an aircraft.

A350 definitely better looking.

 

[Techniquest]

I know this is a superficial question, but which aircraft do you think looks better, the B787 or A350?

Depends on the livery. I've only seen one B787 so far in Norwegian colours, never seen an A350 in the flesh. Based on the image that was linked earlier in your post though, I'd say it comes down to livery.

On that criteria alone, the A350 in VA livery looks stunning!

 

[Harbornite]

Depends on the livery. I've only seen one B787 so far in Norwegian colours, never seen an A350 in the flesh. Based on the image that was linked earlier in your post though, I'd say it comes down to livery.

On that criteria alone, the A350 in VA livery looks stunning!

Indeed it does look good. However, I feel rather traitorous towards Europe because overall I prefer the looks of the B787. I have seen quite a few dreamliners in the flesh, mostly air india, Thomson and Qatar ones flying over my gaff towards BHX, although on a clear day I occasionally see Saudi, Virgin Atlantic and BA examples.
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In case anyone wants to compare the two...


A350

http://www.airlinerworld.com/2016/07/fia-16-airbus-nets-virgin-a350-order/

B787

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29...-plan-new-boeing-787-9-routes-in-winter-2015/

 

[atillathehunn]

Indeed it does look good. However, I feel rather traitorous towards Europe because overall I prefer the looks of the B787. I have seen quite a few dreamliners in the flesh, mostly air india, Thomson and Qatar ones flying over my gaff towards BHX, although on a clear day I occasionally see Saudi, Virgin Atlantic and BA examples.
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In case anyone wants to compare the two...


A350

http://www.airlinerworld.com/2016/07/fia-16-airbus-nets-virgin-a350-order/

B787

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29...-plan-new-boeing-787-9-routes-in-winter-2015/

The A350 looks more determined, wearing its Aviator shades.

 

[Techniquest]

I also feel like a traitor, what with being a fan of Boeing products over Airbus. As I say, the livery decides it for me mostly, but the images provided are so close to identical it's painful, so I'm sticking to my aviation roots and voting Boeing now!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Are those engine tail pipe shapes unique to the 787? That's the way I usually identify them...

The 787 also appears to have an unusually bright strobe right under the wing centre, although I imagine that particular feature will not be unique to the type?

 

[fowler9]

I like the 747, 757, the 777. Not so keen on he 767 and 787. I Like the A330, A340 and A350. Not so keen on the A380 although it is impressive. They are all slightly different horses for slightly different courses though.

Can I just add this is purely on looks. Ha ha.

 

[WestCoast]

i think they both look great, but from the photos the 787 has a more sleek interior. I'm yet to fly the A350 but have flown on Norwegian and BA 787s and found the (economy) seating cramped on both airlines, but that's down to the airlines themselves.

I saw a Thomson 787 at Tenerife South last week, they are using them on selected European holiday routes out of Gatwick and Manchester this summer....

 

[fowler9]

i think they both look great, but from the photos the 787 has a more sleek interior. I'm yet to fly the A350 but have flown on Norwegian and BA 787s and found the (economy) seating cramped on both airlines, but that's down to the airlines themselves.

I saw a Thomson 787 at Tenerife South last week, they are using them on selected European holiday routes out of Gatwick and Manchester this summer....

Have spoken to several people online who have travelled on 787's recently. The consensus seems to be cramped. A mate of mine has been of several of them recently with Royal Brunei and they have been not too good. Yeah it is down to the airline but still.

Personally speaking I think the nose is ugly. That is petty though. Ha ha.

 

[Harbornite]

I saw a Thomson 787 at Tenerife South last week, they are using them on selected European holiday routes out of Gatwick and Manchester this summer....

We get them on flights from Brum to Jamaica

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More Chinese knockoffs. I hadn't heard of COMAC before but they seem to be doing alright and I'll be watching them with interest.

China's aviation expansion ambitions
12 July 2016 Last updated at 10:18 BST
One country that is storming into the global aviation market is China, which has been developing cut-price rivals to the airliners and drones produced in the West.
China wants to increase earnings from aircraft building tenfold, to one trillion yuan (£115bn; $150bn) a year. How can it be so hopeful?
Video journalist: Jeremy Howell

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36768278

 

[atillathehunn]

We get them on flights from Brum to Jamaica

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More Chinese knockoffs. I hadn't heard of COMAC before but they seem to be doing alright and I'll be watching them with interest.



www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36768278

Various regional airlines around here are using them. These airlines are, more often than not, on the banned list for my personal travel and definitely for business travel. Air Zimbabwe has some, I believe, and a nightmare airline all round, made worse by the planes they use.

787s on the long haul holiday flights isn't a surprise, it's their use to the holiday islands that's somewhat more unusual.

 

[me123]

As I say, the livery decides it for me mostly, but the images provided are so close to identical it's painful...

hock: How dare you?

I must admit, they look remarkably similar in those pictures. But look at these two and you may start to see the differences. Most notably, I'd say the A350 has a "pointier" nose, and is broader at the top of the fuselage, whereas the B787 is bulkier at the bottom. Although, there isn't much in it between the two from a purely aesthetic perspective.

A350

B787

 

[AlterEgo]

The A350 is easy to differentiate from the 787, because:

1: Blended winglets rather than the raked flexible wing of the 787
2: Black "Bank robber" mask on the cockpit.
3: Standard engine nacelles, not toothed ones like the 787.

 

[fowler9]

Had another Tornado down the river today which I was lucky enough to see from the hill by ours. I believe there is a 767 parked up to to take LFC to America on Thursday. Bit of an unusual visitor to Liverpool.

 

[Harbornite]

I prefer the wings of the 787, they look more graceful. I'd say the A340 is the best looking airbus passenger aircraft with the A380 in second place.
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Had another Tornado down the river today which I was lucky enough to see from the hill by ours. I believe there is a 767 parked up to to take LFC to America on Thursday. Bit of an unusual visitor to Liverpool.

I take it you use flightradar?

 

[WestCoast]

I prefer the wings of the 787, they look more graceful. I'd say the A340 is the best looking airbus passenger aircraft with the A380 in second place.

I think the 757 is the most elegant modern(ish) Boeing commercial aircraft, it's also practically a rocket. The A320neo with sharklets also looks like one mean machine!
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Had another Tornado down the river today which I was lucky enough to see from the hill by ours. I believe there is a 767 parked up to to take LFC to America on Thursday. Bit of an unusual visitor to Liverpool.

The Bulgarian MD-82 is back this evening/morning too!

 

[Bungle965]

I think the 757 is the most elegant modern(ish) Boeing commercial aircraft, it's also practically a rocket. The A320neo with sharklets also looks like one mean machine!
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The Bulgarian MD-82 is back this evening/morning too!

Has there been any more news on the 757s replacement, Wikipedia states that Boeing was in a consultation phase in 2015.
Just wondering whether it had been confirmed that there would be a replacement?
Sam

 

[atillathehunn]

No official word, though I would imagine they are treating the 737 MAX 9 as the replacement.

From a customer perspective, though, I would imagine you'll be on an A320NEO, which is outselling any rival.

 

[Bungle965]

No official word, though I would imagine they are treating the 737 MAX 9 as the replacement.

From a customer perspective, though, I would imagine you'll be on an A320NEO, which is outselling any rival.

Thanks for that.
Sam

 

[Harbornite]

I found out about this blog recently, it's quite good. The following link may be of interest...

www.askthepilot.com/757-v-737/

What Boeing has long needed to do is design us a whole new airframe — let’s call it the 797 — that can equal the 757’s remarkable combination of performance and economy, but with more fuel-efficient engines, a modernized flight deck and a new cabin. This is well within the technical expertise, if not the imagination, of the world’s largest plane-maker.

It’s not that Boeing hasn’t looked into this. The company insists, however, that the market for such a plane, estimated at anywhere from 300 to a thousand examples, is too limited, be it an entirely new model, or even just a 757 enhancement. As a point of comparison, Boeing says that it won’t break even on its super-successful 787 program until at least 1,500 individual aircraft have been sold. If this is true, it’s a sad testament to how expensive it has become to develop new airframes.

Meanwhile we get more and more 737s, the plane that kind of, sort of, almost does the job, but not really.

Airbus, for its part, says that its A321, a stretched-out version of the A320, is the more adequate replacement. Perhaps it is, but this plane, too, fails to match the 757’s range or payload capabilities. An upcoming variant, the A321 “neo,” might prove to be more suitable, we’ll see. If so, and if Airbus begins to rack up orders, then shame on Boeing. If a whole new plane was out of the question, couldn’t they at least have updated the existing one, perhaps with new engines, before shutting down the line altogether?

For now there’s nothing to fill its shoes. And so the 757 flies on.

 

[freetoview33]

I dont think there is room for both A321LR and 757MAX. And Airbus got first mover advantage, I think Boeing under estimated demand and did themselves in by not doing a bigger version of the 737 years ago to replace the 757.
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Although saying that there maybe room for an aircraft between the 737 and 787 to replace the 757 and 767.
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Or a 787-7 and a 737MAX10 which might be cheaper to develop
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Also what is the long term future of the 747 if the 777-10 is developed.

 

[fowler9]

I prefer the wings of the 787, they look more graceful. I'd say the A340 is the best looking airbus passenger aircraft with the A380 in second place.
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I take it you use flightradar?

Yeah I use flightradar but I actually saw the Tornado and read abou he 767 on another aviation forum after my dad saw something a bit unusual looking after dropping my sis off at the airport. (She is cabin crew).

Love the A340 (Have I said that before )
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I think the 757 is the most elegant modern(ish) Boeing commercial aircraft, it's also practically a rocket. The A320neo with sharklets also looks like one mean machine!
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The Bulgarian MD-82 is back this evening/morning too!

Gutted, I think the Blue Air flight was due out at 09:25, when I was sat at my desk, we can see them very clearly not long after hey leave the ground, I must have been working too hard, ha ha.

Agree by the way, I have a soft spot for the 757.

 

[atillathehunn]

I dont think there is room for both A321LR and 757MAX. And Airbus got first mover advantage, I think Boeing under estimated demand and did themselves in by not doing a bigger version of the 737 years ago to replace the 757.
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Although saying that there maybe room for an aircraft between the 737 and 787 to replace the 757 and 767.
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Or a 787-7 and a 737MAX10 which might be cheaper to develop
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Also what is the long term future of the 747 if the 777-10 is developed.

The 767 will be retired from TATL flights, I believe, because of new navigation requirements which they cannot meet. As a result, you may be correct in saying a new mid-haul jet is required to fill that gap. However, Delta - one of the main operators of this type - are slashing flights to the UK, so perhaps not.
The 737 is not a very nice aircraft, and as you say, is being smashed in sales by the A320NEO and A321LR.

As witnessed by the poor performance of the A380, the demand is for smaller, more efficient jets. Certainly looking at growth markets here in Africa, nobody is going to want to buy an A380 particularly, but an efficient smaller jet would be popular. ET flies 787s to Luanda, Kinshasa, Brazzaville, Lagos, as well as Jo'burg. Their 757s often do the busy EBB run on a weekend, sometimes on the triangle route to Juba via EBB as well.

 

[freetoview33]

737MAX 7 - 170 max passengers
737MAX 8 - 200 max passengers
737MAX 9 - 220 max passengers
757-200 - 239 max passengers
767-200 - 242 max passengers
757-300 - 295 max passengers
767-300ER - 290 max passengers
767-400ER - 330ish?? max passengers
787-8 - 359 max passengers
787-9 - 406 max passengers
787-10 - 440 max passengers

Big question is would a new aircraft be narrow or wide? Narrow would open up more markets but 295max passengers on a 757-300 single isle really? That surely would be a nightmare!

777-200 Seems to have been replaced by the 787-10.

So my idea would be as follows.

737MAX 10 - 240 Max Passengers - to replace the 757-200 (Would minimise development costs, I can't see a new narrow isle aircraft ever being viable unless it totally replaced the 737.)

Maybe if there was a totally new product to replace the 737 it could have this.

A) 165 Max
B) 200 Max
C) 235 Max

Which would simplify things more.

767-8 - 270 max passengers
767-9 - 320 max passengers

otherwise there is a massive gap between the 737MAX9 and the 787-8, which could do will filling.

 

[WestCoast]

To be competitive with the A321LR I think it would have to be within the 737 family. The 737-900 has sold very poorly in Europe, so it would have to be great product to entice customers away from Airbus. Norwegian, a big Boeing customer, has just ordered the A321LR.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There is only so far that it is worthwhile stretching the length of narrowbody aircraft. With just a single aisle the time it takes to load/unload passengers can start to have an effect on the economics if turn-round times get too long as well as being unpopular with passengers. So the issue then becomes about efficient operation of a shortish widebody. Economics demands the use of suitably efficient engines coupled with consistently high load factors. It is no coincidence that over the long-term life of widebody models the longer variants tend to sell better. Effectively there will likely always be a gap between the highest capacity narrowbody and the lowest capacity widebody with the position and size of that gap being dictated by available engine technology and prevailing fuel costs.

 

[anme]

Has there been any more news on the 757s replacement, Wikipedia states that Boeing was in a consultation phase in 2015.
Just wondering whether it had been confirmed that there would be a replacement?
Sam

Thanks for the info. Purely from a passenger's point of view, I really dislike the 757 for anything other than short haul flights. I've done overnight trans-Atlantic flights on them a few times and it's a really grim experience. For medium and long haul, a wide body aircraft is strongly preferred (although the 787 seems to be getting bad reviews).

Exceptions can be made for business only configurations such as BA's A318's from LCY, of course.

 

[atillathehunn]

SQ have announced that SIN-MAN will go non-stop (dropping the MUC stop), and will thence continue from MAN to Houston, TX.

An interesting announcement. Thomas Cook and Virgin will be starting new routes to America next year.

It won't be long before the HKG flight is daily, either.

 

[fowler9]

SQ have announced that SIN-MAN will go non-stop (dropping the MUC stop), and will thence continue from MAN to Houston, TX.

An interesting announcement. Thomas Cook and Virgin will be starting new routes to America next year.

It won't be long before the HKG flight is daily, either.

Damn. When is it going none stop?