Aviation Discussion

[atillathehunn]

Damn. When is it going none stop?

Manchester Evening News says 30th October. Availability in Skyscanner corresponds with this. Fares not fully loaded yet, economy tickets still pricing at £7000 return!

 

[fowler9]

Great, was planning on doing Munich the week after, the week of my birthday. Ha ha. Such is life.

 

[freetoview33]

I have only been a one transatlantic flight, on an American 777/200 Heathrow to JFK and back December 2010.

 

[fowler9]

I have only been a one transatlantic flight, on an American 777/200 Heathrow to JFK and back December 2010.

Never done transatlantic myself unless Buenos Aires to Heathrow counts, BA 772. (I'm thinking of transatlantic as being traditionally to North America if that makes sense).

 

[flymo]

Just back from the Looooong 777 flight trip to the US. HKG - ORD (Chicago) last Sunday in about 14 hours 20 mins and the return leg was 14 hours and 50 minutes today. Got a window seat on the outward leg and an aisle seat coming back, I really suffered for a day or so as I did not get out to stretch enough on the outward leg due to a large chap in the seat next to me. The aisle seat was much better.

The food was rubbish, Cathay usually does better. Chicago T5 is still in the 1970's, not a nice place to spend any time in my opinion. Border security and customs were painless however both on entry and exit, only minutes to get through both times, but it was the weekend.

First time for me across the International Date Line. Planning a trip to Denver next year already.

Jet lag here we come...

 

[fowler9]

Just back from the Looooong 777 flight trip to the US. HKG - ORD (Chicago) last Sunday in about 14 hours 20 mins and the return leg was 14 hours and 50 minutes today. Got a window seat on the outward leg and an aisle seat coming back, I really suffered for a day or so as I did not get out to stretch enough on the outward leg due to a large chap in the seat next to me. The aisle seat was much better.

The food was rubbish, Cathay usually does better. Chicago T5 is still in the 1970's, not a nice place to spend any time in my opinion. Border security and customs were painless however both on entry and exit, only minutes to get through both times, but it was the weekend.

First time for me across the International Date Line. Planning a trip to Denver next year already.

Jet lag here we come...

I would have expected Cathay to be pretty good food wise to!

 

[ian959]

Also what is the long term future of the 747 if the 777-10 is developed.

The 747 is dead, whatever happens. With the orders for the 747-8 being so relatively poor, it would take a miracle to expect any more 747 variants to be produced for civil use.

 

[Harbornite]

It's pretty much the end new 4 engined passenger aircraft variants or designs. Modern twin engine aircraft are more reliable than their predecessors and can be flown with one engine working (but only as far as the nearest airport). The only advantage of big aircraft like the A380 and 747 is passenger aircraft, but airlines now would rather fly smaller aircraft more frequently.

 

[atillathehunn]

It's pretty much the end new 4 engined passenger aircraft variants or designs. Modern twin engine aircraft are more reliable than their predecessors and can be flown with one engine working (but only as far as the nearest airport). The only advantage of big aircraft like the A380 and 747 is passenger aircraft, but airlines now would rather fly smaller aircraft more frequently.

The larger aircraft can shift more people in one go, the busines model of Emirates for example. They have more A380s on order. Likewise there are very short flights in Asia operated by large aircraft. However you are right that generally the trend is away from that model. Certainly in developing markets that is the case.

 

[WestCoast]

The larger aircraft can shift more people in one go, the busines model of Emirates for example. They have more A380s on order. Likewise there are very short flights in Asia operated by large aircraft. However you are right that generally the trend is away from that model. Certainly in developing markets that is the case.

The A380 seems to work well for Emirates, but not many other carriers seem to be able to attract that kind of traffic volume. I get the impression that Etihad and Qatar Airways ordered the A380 for reasons of prestige.

 

[AlterEgo]

The A380 seems to work well for Emirates, but not many other carriers seem to be able to attract that kind of traffic volume. I get the impression that Etihad and Qatar Airways ordered the A380 for reasons of prestige.

This is my impression too.

BA seem to be able to make the A380 work, though they have it some some of their second string routes (YVR and BOS to name two).

It's a fantastic aircraft inside no matter how hideous it is externally.

 

[WestCoast]

This is my impression too.

BA seem to be able to make the A380 work, though they have it some some of their second string routes (YVR and BOS to name two).

It's a fantastic aircraft inside no matter how hideous it is externally.

I agree, I'd take an A380 in economy over the 787 anyway! I've only flown on the BA versions of these aircraft though.

 

[atillathehunn]

I agree, I'd take an A380 in economy over the 787 anyway! I've only flown on the BA versions of these aircraft though.

In general the A380 is more comfortable because of its size. Better space in the seats, and better ability to move around mid flight should the urge take you. If they could only put the air system from the 787 in the A380...


While none of the ME3 are truly competitive in a free market sense, Etihad is the national airline of the UAE, and so prestige probably paid a role, but then their residence and apartments service only needs a few bookings and the whole thing is paid for.

Qatar appear to fill their A380s reasonably well.

I think overall it's unfair to say there is no future for four-engined super aircraft. As you say, BA have made it work on some unusual routes. JNB, for example, has two BA flight to London per days, both on four engined aircraft, and CPT has a Jumbo daily. IAD, LAX, SFO, BOS, YVR, HKG, SIN among others. Air France has an A380 flying into Abidjan!

Don't forget the various Chinese and Korean airlines flying them, often on very short flights.

The second hand market for the frames will be very limited, and you are right that the more they can do with twin-engine aircraft the better, but don't write them off just yet.

 

[freetoview33]

Remember BA said they were looking for more A380's! Ideally used but they didn't rule out ordering more. So it obviously works for them.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's pretty much the end new 4 engined passenger aircraft variants or designs.

For now the airline market is moving away from the hub-and-spoke model that perfectly suits the A380, but it'll be interesting to see how things go as fuel prices start to move upwards again.

The A380 is perfect for what it does, moving big numbers of people, which is fine when you need to move big numbers of people. It's perfect for airports like Heathrow or Munich where the only way to increase capacity on a route is to use a bigger plane. The A380 has effectively ended production of the B747- it blew the B747-800 out of the water.

The issue is that the current market is either for non-stop flights from regional airports or for a higher frequency with smaller planes. For that you'd want a 787 or a 350; both have very similar fuel-per-seat rates to the 380, which is great where you can fill a 380, but with half the seats on a 787 or 350 it's much better suited for smaller markets.

It was my first time on a 380 a couple of weeks ago and the size of the thing was the best bit. There was room, even in Emirates economy, to stretch out and walk around, something that economy on Emirates' B777s doesn't give you.

 

[Harbornite]

I should have added that it's only really Emirates who are enthusiastic for the A380, and fair play to them. They have said they'll be annoyed if Airbus decide to can the A380.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

For now the airline market is moving away from the hub-and-spoke model that perfectly suits the A380, but it'll be interesting to see how things go as fuel prices start to move upwards again.

The A380 is perfect for what it does, moving big numbers of people, which is fine when you need to move big numbers of people. It's perfect for airports like Heathrow or Munich where the only way to increase capacity on a route is to use a bigger plane. The A380 has effectively ended production of the B747- it blew the B747-800 out of the water.

The issue is that the current market is either for non-stop flights from regional airports or for a higher frequency with smaller planes. For that you'd want a 787 or a 350; both have very similar fuel-per-seat rates to the 380, which is great where you can fill a 380, but with half the seats on a 787 or 350 it's much better suited for smaller markets.

It all depends on an airline's business model which can be significantly influenced by geography. Emirates being based in Dubai finds itself ideally located to provide a hub and spoke service to a massive range of destinations. It also has the historic legacy of trading connections with the Indian sub-continent which led to many of its guest workers coming from there and providing a steady market on which it has piggybacked more flows from further afield. It's also nicely positioned for flows between Europe and South East Asia/Australia as well as a growing market between China and Africa.

Few other airlines have the same range of markets allowing for such a large interchange of passengers at their hubs. North Atlantic routes certainly support the use of large aircraft but the onward connections, generally speaking, don't. In other words the A380 is ideal where there are large volumes over long distances in different, preferably opposite, directions from the hub. So perfect for global networks based on the middle east and maybe, in time, from Istanbul. Elsewhere it's really serving niche markets where there is a heavy flow with a capacity constrained airport at one end or the other (or possibly both in the case of LHR-JFK).

As for prestige use it's not just Etihad that may be guilty of this. Air France is widely believed to be making little money from its A380s and rumours abound about reconfiguring them for high capacity bucket and spade runs to its overseas territories, especially in the Caribbean.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The transatlantic routes were more what I was thinking of with a move away from hub-and-spoke. In the old days you flew from Heathrow to JFK, Newark or O'Hare and then flew onwards from there. That gave you a big number of passengers all flying the same way. These days there are many more point-to-point flights you never used to see: Virgin Atlantic fly Manchester-Atlanta, United are flying Newcastle-Newark, etc etc.

A full A380 is as fuel efficient as a full A350 or B787. The issue is whether you can fill the A380. As you say, the real success has been on Europe-Dubai/Abu Dhabi/Singapore-Australia. Lots of people all travelling the same way.

Even Emirates don't use the A380 on their flights to more regional airports- the B777 is still their workhorse on those routes.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The transatlantic routes were more what I was thinking of with a move away from hub-and-spoke. In the old days you flew from Heathrow to JFK, Newark or O'Hare and then flew onwards from there. That gave you a big number of passengers all flying the same way. These days there are many more point-to-point flights you never used to see: Virgin Atlantic fly Manchester-Atlanta, United are flying Newcastle-Newark, etc etc.

These are still hub and spoke routes, but the hubs are in the US. Even now few airlines are flying long distance routes from other than their hubs. Of course there are airlines with more than one hub (the US3, Lufthansa) but BA is these days very much a London airline. No BA base at Manchester or Birmingham for example.

A full A380 is as fuel efficient as a full A350 or B787. The issue is whether you can fill the A380. As you say, the real success has been on Europe-Dubai/Abu Dhabi/Singapore-Australia. Lots of people all travelling the same way.

Absolutely true! Emirates trick has been to generate so much additional traffic by serving so many different regional destinations. The Manchester route started as a thrice weekly A300 via Frankfurt, then a daily direct A330, and now has 2xA380 and a B773 each and every day. I doubt that much of that additional traffic has been taken from other airlines.

Repeat that around the globe and the number of useful single stop connections is enormous.

Even Emirates don't use the A380 on their flights to more regional airports- the B777 is still their workhorse on those routes.

See above re Manchester. Also to Birmingham. And I believe Edinburgh may be on the cards. Sure the A380 won't go everywhere. But it serves plenty of regional airports.

http://www.emirates.com/english/fly...irates_schedule/emirates_flight_schedule.aspx

 

[atillathehunn]

These are still hub and spoke routes, but the hubs are in the US. Even now few airlines are flying long distance routes from other than their hubs. Of course there are airlines with more than one hub (the US3, Lufthansa) but BA is these days very much a London airline. No BA base at Manchester or Birmingham for example.



Absolutely true! Emirates trick has been to generate so much additional traffic by serving so many different regional destinations. The Manchester route started as a thrice weekly A300 via Frankfurt, then a daily direct A330, and now has 2xA380 and a B773 each and every day. I doubt that much of that additional traffic has been taken from other airlines.

Repeat that around the globe and the number of useful single stop connections is enormous.



See above re Manchester. Also to Birmingham. And I believe Edinburgh may be on the cards. Sure the A380 won't go everywhere. But it serves plenty of regional airports.

http://www.emirates.com/english/fly...irates_schedule/emirates_flight_schedule.aspx

On the other hand there are still routes where you think 'where is the A380?'. Johannesburg, for example, has four 777 daily for cargo uplift, which knocks the A380 cargo uplift out of the park.

There is evidently a market for the large, four-engined aircraft. It might not be the market people thought, though. Looking at the proportion of TATL flights operated by the A380 you see it is lower than you might anticipate for one of the busiest aviation routes in the world.

However, try getting to Hong Kong or Singapore these days on something other than an A380 and your choices are limited.

Edinburgh can't take an A380, I believe. Seems unlikely ever to get one, either.

You are right about Emirates business model. Everybody here knows Emirates. When I say I arrived by Qatar they look a bit puzzled, and eventually they might remember they exist. Where Sweatyhad and Qatar fly an A320 a few times weekly or daily in the case of Qatar, Emirates has a 77W daily. Flooding the market is their strategy. It works in many cases.

But then look at places like Conakry where Emirates tried a second daily 77W/773, and it was a huge flop. There are limits.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

On the other hand there are still routes where you think 'where is the A380?'. Johannesburg, for example, has four 777 daily for cargo uplift, which knocks the A380 cargo uplift out of the park.

The cargo issue is more important than many people realise. Emirates has talked about increasing capacity at Manchester still further but hasn't yet done so for this very reason. With ongoing construction at both current and new airports in Dubai they are reluctant to be too gung-ho about fitting additional flights into the connectional "waves" there. Converting the remaining 773 flight to a 380 would leave them too short on cargo capacity on the route though dedicated cargo flights may be part of the solution.

There is evidently a market for the large, four-engined aircraft. It might not be the market people thought, though. Looking at the proportion of TATL flights operated by the A380 you see it is lower than you might anticipate for one of the busiest aviation routes in the world.

However, try getting to Hong Kong or Singapore these days on something other than an A380 and your choices are limited.

That contrast is down to the number of operators and diversity of airports generating traffic. TATL is not a single market however convenient it may be to think of it that way. Of course during the life of A380 production so far the world economy has been relatively sluggish and TATL has not been a significant growth area. So the expectations that the A380 would be needed to overcome airport capacity constraints has only seen limited realisation. The big question for Airbus is whether that situation will change anytime soon.

 

[atillathehunn]

As for prestige use it's not just Etihad that may be guilty of this. Air France is widely believed to be making little money from its A380s and rumours abound about reconfiguring them for high capacity bucket and spade runs to its overseas territories, especially in the Caribbean.

Many of the A380s for AF are very tightly packed, regularly getting panned in reviews.

Very interesting that only three airports in Africa receive A380s. Mauritius, Johannesburg, and Abidjan. I believe no airport in South America receives an A380, though I'm ready to be corrected as I wouldn't be surprised if Brazil did from DXB.

It says the market expansion for the aircraft is weak in the developing markets.

Airbus have said no to the A380NEO which is an interesting turn of events, likely due to the fact only Emirates were interested, or were pressing too hard on the prices.

 

[freetoview33]

The only issue I have with Emirates is they can't operate out of my local airport (Bristol) as it can't handle B747's, B777's or A380's. Although amazing can take A330, B787 and I think they say they can take an A350! Although I would call that interesting to say the least!

 

[WestCoast]

What does everyone think of the recently announced Singapore Airlines service Singapore - Manchester - Houston? Not a route I had foreseen! I'd expect some very decent fares on the Manchester - Houston section, and good connections to United services at the other end. Plus they really do treat you well in my experience, even at the very back of economy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, has anyone used the website kiwi.com to book "guaranteed" through connections with low cost airlines that don't offer such a service. I think it used to be called Skypicker or something?

I've found a laughably low price from the UK to Dubai via Bucharest on Ryanair and Wizzair (I know, but I'm a cheapskate ) and wondered about just how great this guarantee is if a flight is late. Reading through the terms and conditions, it doesn't look all that wonderful.

 

[me123]

See above re Manchester. Also to Birmingham. And I believe Edinburgh may be on the cards. Sure the A380 won't go everywhere. But it serves plenty of regional airports.

Emirates could well be looking at an A380 into Glasgow too in the not too distant future. They've done it before as a once-off.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

What does everyone think of the recently announced Singapore Airlines service Singapore - Manchester - Houston? Not a route I had foreseen! I'd expect some very decent fares on the Manchester - Houston section, and good connections to United services at the other end. Plus they really do treat you well in my experience, even at the very back of economy.

One disappointing aspect to the announcement is the reporting in some quarters that this is a brand new connection. Yet the old Continental Airlines certainly ran a daily flight for a while and PIA had a 2 or 3 times a week connection during the period they were flying to North American destinations via Manchester.

I agree about the service quality on Singapore Airlines; if I ever go to Australia again it'll likely be with them rather than Emirates even if the fare is a touch more. Economy on SIA is much less like cattle class!

 

[headshot119]

Emirates could well be looking at an A380 into Glasgow too in the not too distant future. They've done it before as a once-off.

The one off was only flying with a 777-300 load of passengers and baggage. I understood Glasgow can't take a 380 with a full payload though I could be wrong.

 

[me123]

^ There is work to do to accommodate it on a regular basis. The airfield can accommodate an A380, but it very much restricts other activity at present (for example, the A380 blocked off the adjacent stand as well). But GLA could accommodate the aircraft with some work. Certainly the runway is up to the job - the A380 requires less take off distance than a 747 (which GLA sees quite regularly) and I trust the runway can hold the MTOW.

 

[freetoview33]

777-10 is an interesting one, if boeing does develop it, it will effectively get rid of the A380. (And no doubt sell quite well). But also it would be admitting they wasted money on the 747-8.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

What does everyone think of the recently announced Singapore Airlines service Singapore - Manchester - Houston? Not a route I had foreseen! I'd expect some very decent fares on the Manchester - Houston section, and good connections to United services at the other end. Plus they really do treat you well in my experience, even at the very back of economy.

The last time I flew this route was when it was operated by a 747 and stopping at Brussels and Mumbai before Singapore. Then at Singapore it was a 777 to Manila. We're talking about 2000/2001.

I've always thought about trying out Singapore to Munich but have never got round to it, and it looks like I'm going to have to be quick if I still want to do it!

Personally I'm not too keen on the idea that if I wanted to fly to Singapore, the plane will already have originated in Houston, but a direct flight is always good. And of course coming back from Singapore, Manchester will be the next stop.

I'm actually planning a holiday out to Philippines again for next year and Singapore probably will be the choice airline, despite my reservations on the flight originating in Houston, simply based on their excellent reviews and service.