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Avanti West Coast via Settle (for WCML Bridge replacement next January?)

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nilvaj395

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I paid £10 for my Advance Single with Railcard from Carlisle to Preston. A very, very favourable price for such a journey, I think!
I wanted to go to Scotland and the cheapest was around £45 total* (I just checked for Tuesday) when I checked a few days ago, compared to the usual around £20-28 total.

To be fair to your point, I just checked the details bit of TrainSplit on the fare and the Avanti Preston to Carlisle portion is around that £10-11 price each way too.

The issue comes from the change in and continuing onwards from Carlisle to go onwards into Scotland. TrainSplit wants you to pay for an off-peak ticket between Carlisle and Lockerbie and another one from there to Edinburgh (which comes to around £23 extra).

Booking direct advances for with Avanti comes out to around £33 for Glasgow and £85 for Edinburgh (unless you take the 05:53 from Preston and change at Motherwell/Belshill which is some £30 cheaper). Even at £33 it's more (and this is just my circumstances) easier to wait and to get a cheaper train + hostel night stay for that price plus a little more.
 
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AndrewE

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It will happen again. 100% and sooner than you think.
well let's hope that Avanti get their act together then. This level of engine failures on top of an inability to join units make the service borderline unusable - and certainly not one to be relied on for anything important.

I had thought of starting an Evero failures thread: "Why so many?"
When I travelled north from Crewe the two units were brought in from the sidings separately (even though only one ECS was shown on RTT) and then we were 40 mins late departing because "they" couldn't get the trains to couple properly and both sets' doors to open... At the end of the journey we found that passengers were left trapped in the front unit at Carlisle for 8 minutes before the staff there realised they needed to do something.

I overheard an apparently well-informed lady on Crewe station platform say "They hate joining them in the sidings!" I interpreted this to mean that coupling is inherently unreliable - and guessed that if the ECS is late into the station then that is a cost against the Carriage siding (LNR or Arriva?) whereas if 2 sets fail to couple in the station then that is an operating problem and down to Avanti instead. (It seems to have taken years for the job to get splitting or joining to be fairly efficiently done at Chester, and even so you still wonder if it is actually going to work!) Whether it is down to repeated equipment failures, inability to follow a prescribed coupling procedure in the actual circumstances or inadequate training I have no idea.

This isn't even taking into account what seem to be multiple power unit failures - let alone train sets unusable simply because of the failure to apply winter precautions to rolling stock in the winter: "Oh, the toilet water has frozen... Whoever could have imagined such a thing?"

Whatever is behind it, it is a real embarassment that the UK railway can't get a grip on such basic things and that long-distance trains are so badly delayed by what looks and sounds (from the comments up-thread) like complete ineptitude.
 

ChilliSauce

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well let's hope that Avanti get their act together then. This level of engine failures on top of an inability to join units make the service borderline unusable - and certainly not one to be relied on for anything important.

I had thought of starting an Evero failures thread: "Why so many?"
When I travelled north from Crewe the two units were brought in from the sidings separately (even though only one ECS was shown on RTT) and then we were 40 mins late departing because "they" couldn't get the trains to couple properly and both sets' doors to open... At the end of the journey we found that passengers were left trapped in the front unit at Carlisle for 8 minutes before the staff there realised they needed to do something.

I overheard an apparently well-informed lady on Crewe station platform say "They hate joining them in the sidings!" I interpreted this to mean that coupling is inherently unreliable - and guessed that if the ECS is late into the station then that is a cost against the Carriage siding (LNR or Arriva?) whereas if 2 sets fail to couple in the station then that is an operating problem and down to Avanti instead. (It seems to have taken years for the job to get splitting or joining to be fairly efficiently done at Chester, and even so you still wonder if it is actually going to work!) Whether it is down to repeated equipment failures, inability to follow a prescribed coupling procedure in the actual circumstances or inadequate training I have no idea.

This isn't even taking into account what seem to be multiple power unit failures - let alone train sets unusable simply because of the failure to apply winter precautions to rolling stock in the winter: "Oh, the toilet water has frozen... Whoever could have imagined such a thing?"

Whatever is behind it, it is a real embarassment that the UK railway can't get a grip on such basic things and that long-distance trains are so badly delayed by what looks and sounds (from the comments up-thread) like complete ineptitude.
I have taken the Diversion four times during the blockade and on three of those upon arriving at Carlisle (late) have decided the "wisest move" would not be to retrace my steps but return south either via Newcastle or Leeds.

I think the Avanti staff have all tried / worked very hard to try and make the shuttle service work ... But when there are continually coupling problems, Generator Unit failures, no serviceable toilets, electrical fault in the Shop etc etc ..Then it might be said its the trains, that have been deployed, that have let it all down.

For my 4th run today despite a late start from Preston ... Generator Unit problems I did feel confident to take the service straight back from Carlisle to Preston ... As didn't want to risk waiting for the next service (+2 hours) as who knows that might of ended up being cancelled ..
 
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Sheddyone

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It wasn't so bad. I was on the 1007 off Preston too.

The TM explained that they had an engine out and they were waiting for a fitter. Then they restarted the train (all power off and no lights for about 5 mins) and the TM announced that this had fixed problem, which was in the rear unit leaving Preston southbound (805003, I think).

A wonderful journey up to Carlisle in the winter sunshine.

A member of onboard staff said it would be happening regularly over the next few years, due to WCML renewal works, confirming what others have said up thread.
 

nilvaj395

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According to MR magazine the DRS Thunderbird contract expired last month and has not been renewed/needed. Avanti stating that complete Pendolino failures are so rare it is not cost effective.
Also I hope this does not royally backfire, but the Pendolinos are awesome.
 

Sheddyone

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Also I hope this does not royally backfire, but the Pendolinos are awesome.
Yes. My Pendo up to Preston was orders of magnitude better that the Evero, even if the 805 train had been playing nicely. Although I only did the trip to go up the S & C, so I had prepared myself for it.
 

Carlisle

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At the end of the journey we found that passengers were left trapped in the front unit at Carlisle for 8 minutes before the staff there realised they needed to do something.
I’ve heard the selective door operation prevents release on certain platforms unless specific doors where the platform /train gap is considered too large are isolated.
Are these trains different dimensions from the LNER & TPE IETs that haven’t had these problems at Carlisle AFAIK or have standards simply been tightened recently? .
 
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ChilliSauce

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It wasn't so bad. I was on the 1007 off Preston too.

The TM explained that they had an engine out and they were waiting for a fitter. Then they restarted the train (all power off and no lights for about 5 mins) and the TM announced that this had fixed problem, which was in the rear unit leaving Preston southbound (805003, I think).

A wonderful journey up to Carlisle in the winter sunshine.

A member of onboard staff said it would be happening regularly over the next few years, due to WCML renewal works, confirming what others have said up thread.
Given what might be described as the dreadful performance of the class 805 it makes you wonder how much £££ Avanti lost in revenue through train delay repay payments ...
 

dk1

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Given what might be described as the dreadful performance of the class 805 it makes you wonder how much £££ Avanti lost in revenue through train delay repay payments ...
They are all just passed on to the DfT aka Taxpayer so it really doesn’t make much difference.
 

voyagerdude220

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Given what might be described as the dreadful performance of the class 805 it makes you wonder how much £££ Avanti lost in revenue through train delay repay payments ...
Also I question why the performance of the 805s seems to have been particularly bad in terms of Generator Unit faults when Avanti have sent them over the Settle and Carlisle, compared with their other main none electrified route, Holyhead. Also of course the aforementioned frozen toilet tanks whilst stabled overnight problem.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Also I question why the performance of the 805s seems to have been particularly bad in terms of Generator Unit faults when Avanti have sent them over the Settle and Carlisle, compared with their other main none electrified route, Holyhead. Also of course the aforementioned frozen toilet tanks whilst stabled overnight problem.

With North Wales / Chester it’s possible to keep 805s in traffic with an isolated GU which I don’t believe is the case with the steeply graded S&C.
 

Krokodil

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According to MR magazine the DRS Thunderbird contract expired last month and has not been renewed/needed. Avanti stating that complete Pendolino failures are so rare it is not cost effective.
I've seen 57307 in Chester Parcels Bay a few times recently (that pink nameplate isn't easily missed). Light locos tripping out to Chester Parcels Bay are usually something to do with LSL.

Presumably Avanti will need some kind of ability to recover 390s in situations such as the Shap derailment, but not at the cost of having the loco prepped ready to go with a driver on standby. LSL could provide a cold standby loco cost-effectively from their base in Crewe.
 

route101

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Sampled the diversions earlier today with the 0917 from Carlisle to Preston and the 1407 return. Both 10 car sets. I was sat in coach C on the way down in the front set which was the unreserved coach. The return from Preston left ten minutes late. Seats exactly the same as the 390s, I fell asleep for chunks of the trip and the bottom of the seat is tilted upwards which makes the seat a little uncomfortable.

Only had 4 minutes at Carlisle to make the Glasgow bound service.
 

nilvaj395

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From what I have read, Avanti are just going to pay on demand.
Fair enough, as long as loco's are put in the right places for that then I don't see it being an issue. Avanti should be really lucky they inherited Pendolinos and not IET's :lol:
 

Harpers Tate

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In terms of the likelihood of future similar operations, what I see are these major factors:

1: The suitability/reliability of the rolling stock. Clearly these new trains are suffering teething problems as it seems is just about always the case and much of the unreliability of this offering seems to stem from that - whether it's power failures or frozen water or dicky couplers and one would hope these will in time get ironed out
2: The actions of the operator. It seems to be commonplace that the Railway (not just Avanti) plan on a virtually no contingency basis i.e. that nothing will go wrong. And when it does, then there is time lost or services lost. Simple example: late running inbound train arrives with plenty of time to turn round and depart, but the one and only driver present has to have his mandatory break so the return trip runs late for no other good reason. Example: frozen toilets on a morning where ambient temperatures were well forecast to be below freezing. That should (IMO) have been accounted for, whether by leaving the thing on power or by having a crew available early to warm it up or whatever.
3: Suitability of the route. I think that this has been demonstrated, since it appears that every train that actually ran, ran prefectly well, even if late, with few if any knock-on delays from pathing. If there is one issue here, I'd suggest that the planned timings were perhaps too tight for the type of stock, which appeared to have no ability whatsoever to gain time, even losing the engineering and pathing allowances in the schedule. That is not an issue with the route per se, of course.
4: Need/Usage. I gather that passenger use of these has been relatively good and I think it's well accepted that many people would rather spend extra time on a train than ride on a bus. I guess then that this will be a given.

Of these the only "static" factor is the route and as I say - that worked. The others are down to variable factors which could/should in time be resolvable.
 

dk1

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Sampled the diversions earlier today with the 0917 from Carlisle to Preston and the 1407 return. Both 10 car sets. I was sat in coach C on the way down in the front set which was the unreserved coach. The return from Preston left ten minutes late. Seats exactly the same as the 390s, I fell asleep for chunks of the trip and the bottom of the seat is tilted upwards which makes the seat a little uncomfortable.
That’s something I never understand. I used the diversion on Tuesday and those close by were doing the journey purely for the S&C scenery yet like you for chunks of the journey, even over Ribblehead Viaduct, they were sound asleep.
 

AndrewE

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Of these the only "static" factor is the route and as I say - that worked. The others are down to variable factors which could/should in time be resolvable.
so, as we have been running trains for 200 years now, our winters aren't dramatically diffferent from recent decades (apart from more intense rainfall which affects the track, not the trains) and the Everos aren't anything new in technological terms, how long would you say was acceptable for a big company to learn how to make them work?

We are talking about an important trunk route and the diversions which are going to be used quite a lot over the next few years. The service on the WCML is a vital part of critical UK infrastructure and I find it astonishing that there seems to have been no dissemination of "lessons learnt" or enhanced staffing and technical support. It can't be staff shortage because the number of trains that Avanti have run N of Preston has been much reduced during this blockade.
 

Kite159

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4: Need/Usage. I gather that passenger use of these has been relatively good and I think it's well accepted that many people would rather spend extra time on a train than ride on a bus. I guess then that this will be a given.
The question is how much of the passenger usage has been from genuine passengers and how much have been from people out for a day trip for the novelty of an Avanti via the S&C. The ones who wouldn't have otherwise travelled if the WCML was opened.

(As for ticket checks, when I did the trains on Monday there was no ticket check in either direction in standard class at least, and that was on a 5 coach set)
 

dk1

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The question is how much of the passenger usage has been from genuine passengers and how much have been from people out for a day trip for the novelty of an Avanti via the S&C. The ones who wouldn't have otherwise travelled if the WCML was opened.

(As for ticket checks, when I did the trains on Monday there was no ticket check in either direction in standard class at least, and that was on a 5 coach set)
From what I witnessed it seemed around 20-30% were on a day out sightseeing/sleeping with plenty of suitcases and large bags. Several were working on laptops too. Full ticket checks were made including some extra customer service to help those who should have had reserved seats in 1st class on the now locked out unit. Catering was offered in both classes with from what I saw plenty of choice. There was a queue at the cafe bar for much of the journey too.
 

route101

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That’s something I never understand. I used the diversion on Tuesday and those close by were doing the journey purely for the S&C scenery yet like you for chunks of the journey, even over Ribblehead Viaduct, they were sound asleep.
Luckily I was awake in both directions for the best bits. Despite sleeping on the TPE 397 to Carlisle, I was just too tired to stay awake at points.

No ticket checks either direction including the Carlisle to Glasgow Avanti service. Ticket used was Glasgow to Preston Off Peak Day Return.
 

dk1

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Luckily I was awake in both directions for the best bits. Despite sleeping on the TPE 397 to Carlisle, I was just too tired to stay awake at points.

No ticket checks either direction including the Carlisle to Glasgow Avanti service. Ticket used was Glasgow to Preston Off Peak Day Return.
On top of the checks made on the Avanti diverter they were checked at the ticket gates Blackpool North, on the 09:19 Northern Leeds bound service, on the footbridge at Preston (regular revenue swoop) on the Carlisle-Newcastle Tyne Valley Northern service (she didn’t stop) and again through the gates at Newcastle Central station. All in all very impressed.
 

dave59

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If there is one issue here, I'd suggest that the planned timings were perhaps too tight for the type of stock, which appeared to have no ability whatsoever to gain time, even losing the engineering and pathing allowances in the schedule.

Or that they are all learner drivers and extremely cautious?
 

railrambler

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From what I witnessed it seemed around 20-30% were on a day out sightseeing/sleeping with plenty of suitcases and large bags. Several were working on laptops too. Full ticket checks were made including some extra customer service to help those who should have had reserved seats in 1st class on the now locked out unit. Catering was offered in both classes with from what I saw plenty of choice. There was a queue at the cafe bar for much of the journey too.

On top of the checks made on the Avanti diverter they were checked at the ticket gates Blackpool North, on the 09:19 Northern Leeds bound service, on the footbridge at Preston (regular revenue swoop) on the Carlisle-Newcastle Tyne Valley Northern service (she didn’t stop) and again through the gates at Newcastle Central station. All in all very impressed.

Blea Moor earlier today with its Halo
Hi Chilli Sauce.
I see you managed to get an attachment. Perhaps you should get a job with Avanti !
 
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