Avanti reduced timetable – passenger experiences

[gazzaa2]

Avanti shambles has ruined the London Midland service from Crewe to Euston. Used to be a nice journey, cheaper, reliable and not that much slower than some of the Crewe-Euston Avanti's. It's absolutely packed out now a lot of the time by the time it's left the Trent Valleys all through to Euston (and vice versa). Their rolling stocks are not designed for many standing either, very cramped trains.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

At least it doesn't run the long way round via Stoke any more

 

[Kite159]

And it runs majority as 8 coaches, rather than 4 coaches. Sadly I suspect for some, even if Avanti go back to a full timetable they have discovered the "cheaper" train, especially as a super off-peak ticket from London to Crewe is around £35 [and off-peak around £45]

Although don't give LNR any ideas in running it with pairs of 350/2s to give "extra seats", as people will prefer to stand than squeeze into a centre seat.

 

[nlogax]

Another decent Avanti experience this evening, GLC > Euston. First class mostly empty and good service, think we're only going to be about 10 mins behind schedule. If this continues then it's time I returned to the rails on a more regular basis.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Another decent Avanti experience this evening, GLC > Euston. First class mostly empty and good service, think we're only going to be about 10 mins behind schedule. If this continues then it's time I returned to the rails on a more regular basis.

Although this doesn’t bode well if First Class is mostly empty as that’s where the revenue should be being made!

 

[GodSaveTheKing]

At least it doesn't run the long way round via Stoke any more

The journey time could have been further reduced by enhanced timetabling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And it runs majority as 8 coaches, rather than 4 coaches. Sadly I suspect for some, even if Avanti go back to a full timetable they have discovered the "cheaper" train, especially as a super off-peak ticket from London to Crewe is around £35 [and off-peak around £45]

Although don't give LNR any ideas in running it with pairs of 350/2s to give "extra seats", as people will prefer to stand than squeeze into a centre seat.

/2s are on the out. 10.730 perhaps?

 

[Bald Rick]

Depending if the Timetable Reform Programme gets agreed or not, on which we should hear more about towards the end of this month.

Regardless of that, final timetables will be published 8 weeks out.

However there is a separate process in development to enable the sale of tickets for most services much further out than that, on the proviso that for a very small percentage of services, timings might be changed (and you would be notified accordingly).

The journey time could have been further reduced by enhanced timetabling.

What is ‘enhanced timetabling’? I hope it’s not a rebadged ‘smart timetabling!’

 

[GodSaveTheKing]

Regardless of that, final timetables will be published 8 weeks out.

However there is a separate process in development to enable the sale of tickets for most services much further out than that, on the proviso that for a very small percentage of services, timings might be changed (and you would be notified accordingly).




What is ‘enhanced timetabling’? I hope it’s not a rebadged ‘smart timetabling!’

I just made up a term - the waiting time at calling points (e.g. Stafford/Rugby) and pathing/engineering allowances may have the potential to be minimised.

 

[Skie]

No direct Liverpool to Eustons next week. Great.

 

[nlogax]

Although this doesn’t bode well if First Class is mostly empty as that’s where the revenue should be being made!

As reliability increases I'd hope it begins to fill! Though it would explain why my Seatfrog upgrade only cost thirty five quid.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Regardless of that, final timetables will be published 8 weeks out.

Not if the changes proposed under BTPF don’t get agreed and the ORR insists that NR sticks to its licence requirements which has some detail on Informed Traveller and T12. The default position unless BTPF is agreed will eventually need to be a return to T12 unless NR is prepared to breach its license.

Some interesting weeks ahead in the world of timetabling and compliance. Lots of different views and not a consistent one amongst the various passenger and freight operators and indeed Network Rail!

 

[The Planner]

Not if the changes proposed under BTPF don’t get agreed and the ORR insists that NR sticks to its licence requirements which has some detail on Informed Traveller and T12. The default position unless BTPF is agreed will eventually need to be a return to T12 unless NR is prepared to breach its license.

Some interesting weeks ahead in the world of timetabling and compliance. Lots of different views and not a consistent one amongst the various passenger and freight operators and indeed Network Rail!

Even if BFPF fails, getting back to T12 isnt going to be a quick task for passenger operators.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2022 ==

I just made up a term - the waiting time at calling points (e.g. Stafford/Rugby) and pathing/engineering allowances may have the potential to be minimised.

Strip too much engineering time out and all that happens is work reduces as you cannot have the TSRs and it ends up getting pushed into longer disruptive blocks.

 

[Howardh]

Avanti shambles has ruined the London Midland service from Crewe to Euston. Used to be a nice journey, cheaper, reliable and not that much slower than some of the Crewe-Euston Avanti's. It's absolutely packed out now a lot of the time by the time it's left the Trent Valleys all through to Euston (and vice versa). Their rolling stocks are not designed for many standing either, very cramped trains.

Is that peak or off-peak hours? Last time I used that route I went first-class advanced, mid-day midweek, got a seat OK, the rest of the train had plenty of room at Crewe but filled up to standing by Euston.
Would still use it again in preference to Avanti, although a catering trolly would be welcome!

 

[Watershed]

I just made up a term - the waiting time at calling points (e.g. Stafford/Rugby) and pathing/engineering allowances may have the potential to be minimised.

From December, there is essentially zero slack.

The standard hour southbound path from Crewe is xx13 and has no pathing at all. The only dwell that's longer than 1 minute is Rugby, by half a minute. So in theory half a minute could be cut out of the schedule, except that that would just be rounded up anyway.

The standard hour northbound path from Euston is xx46 and has half a minute's pathing. The only dwell that's longer than minimum is Nuneaton, at 4 minutes. So in theory 3.5 minutes that could be cut out, but it's clearly been added in because a slightly earlier path wouldn't work further north.

The new December paths are very good overall, although I must admit I'm a little bit concerned about the reduction in the turnround at Crewe (now just 19 minutes) and the close proximity of the xx13 departure to the xx10 departure of the TfW Manchester-south Wales service (which is frequently delayed, due to the short turnround at Piccadilly as well as being held to cross the layout to get to Crewe platform 6).

The engineering allowances - 4 minutes each way - aren't unduly generous in my view. That's just 3% given a journey time of about 2 hours - the Swiss railways (as well as some other parts of the British network) use 10%, and it shows in the punctuality statistics. The one thing that doesn't make sense is Sundays, where for reasons best known to Network Rail, it has been decreed that an extra minute's engineering allowance is needed between Euston and Hanslope Jn - even during the (few!) hours where it's planned as a 4 track railway. This is at least a reduction on the current 2 minutes extra, but it's still nonsensical.

 

[The Planner]

The engineering allowances - 4 minutes each way - aren't unduly generous in my view. That's just 3% given a journey time of about 2 hours - the Swiss railways (as well as some other parts of the British network) use 10%, and it shows in the punctuality statistics. The one thing that doesn't make sense is Sundays, where for reasons best known to Network Rail, it has been decreed that an extra minute's engineering allowance is needed between Euston and Hanslope Jn - even during the (few!) hours where it's planned as a 4 track railway. This is at least a reduction on the current 2 minutes extra, but it's still nonsensical.

Allows a more onerous hand back TSR and follow up tamp on the Sunday night to get it higher.

 

[Watershed]

Allows a more onerous hand back TSR and follow up tamp on the Sunday night to get it higher.

And just how common are those? I've rarely, if ever, come across one.

I don't think there's any other 4-track mainline out there that has such limited hours of 4-track operation (being limited to a 2-track railway for 38% of the week, plus closures on top), let alone higher engineering allowances on Sundays. Frankly, the tail seems to be wagging the dog, with WCML run for the convenience of the engineers, rather than passengers.

 

[The Planner]

And just how common are those? I've rarely, if ever, come across one.

I don't think there's any other 4-track mainline out there that has such limited hours of 4-track operation (being limited to a 2-track railway for 38% of the week, plus closures on top), let alone higher engineering allowances on Sundays. Frankly, the tail seems to be wagging the dog, with WCML run for the convenience of the engineers, rather than passengers.

No idea, but if it was a real issue to operators it would have been challenged and altered by now.

 

[Watershed]

No idea, but if it was a real issue to operators it would have been challenged and altered by now.

Under the current arrangements, the operators have little incentive to challenge it. After all, they don't see the revenue and there aren't any Open Access operators either. The FOCs don't care as they don't run much on a Sunday and can run just fine during the weekday nights.

 

[Kite159]

The new December paths are very good overall, although I must admit I'm a little bit concerned about the reduction in the turnround at Crewe (now just 19 minutes) and the close proximity of the xx13 departure to the xx10 departure of the TfW Manchester-south Wales service (which is frequently delayed, due to the short turnround at Piccadilly as well as being held to cross the layout to get to Crewe platform 6)

Also retiming to XX13 breaks the connection at Crewe for any passengers using the TfW+LNR only fares from Manchester to London.
Although in theory if the Welsh train is on time (and uses P6) that 3/4 minute connection is possible as it's cross platform. But won't show up on journey planners so it will be like a Sunday giving a 64 minute wait at Crewe.

 

[Howardh]

Also retiming to XX13 breaks the connection at Crewe for any passengers using the TfW+LNR only fares from Manchester to London.
Although in theory if the Welsh train is on time (and uses P6) that 3/4 minute connection is possible as it's cross platform. But won't show up on journey planners so it will be like a Sunday giving a 64 minute wait at Crewe.

If the TfW train arrives and leaves on time, then won't the xx13 have to be held up slightly to allow the TfW train to clear the station, clear the tracks and points? So pax get an extra few seconds, maybe minutes, to make the connection? But to me it seems odd than the timetable can't allow a good 5 - 10 mins connection time, the powere that be must think that anyone travelling to London from Manchester would only use Avanti and wouldn't even consider x at Crewe onto LNR! But won't many pax want to travel to stations on that line that Avanti doesn't call at?

 

[GodSaveTheKing]

If the TfW train arrives and leaves on time, then won't the xx13 have to be held up slightly to allow the TfW train to clear the station, clear the tracks and points? So pax get an extra few seconds, maybe minutes, to make the connection? But to me it seems odd than the timetable can't allow a good 5 - 10 mins connection time, the powere that be must think that anyone travelling to London from Manchester would only use Avanti and wouldn't even consider x at Crewe onto LNR! But won't many pax want to travel to stations on that line that Avanti doesn't call at?

Or are they deliberately setting a 65-min connection to avoid people making delay repay claims against failed connection at Crewe?

 

[Watershed]

Also retiming to XX13 breaks the connection at Crewe for any passengers using the TfW+LNR only fares from Manchester to London.
Although in theory if the Welsh train is on time (and uses P6) that 3/4 minute connection is possible as it's cross platform. But won't show up on journey planners so it will be like a Sunday giving a 64 minute wait at Crewe.

It's more like a 6 minute connection - the xx10 south Wales departure has a 3 minute dwell in the standard hour. However that's still shy of the rather high 10 minute connection time at Crewe - I suppose that's probably more to allow for trekking from e.g. platform 9/10/12 to 2, but for most connections it's a lot more than is needed. It highlights the limitations of station-wide connection times, rather than using platform data.

The northbound connection isn't much better, being a xx54 WMT arrival and xx30 TfW departure, similar to now. Overall, I suppose the potential TfW + LNR market is probably small - but the rubbish connections take it from being a viable option that's not much slower than using Avanti (especially with the slower schedules from December) to being much slower and hence very unattractive.

 

[30907]

If the TfW train arrives and leaves on time, then won't the xx13 have to be held up slightly to allow the TfW train to clear the station, clear the tracks and points? So pax get an extra few seconds, maybe minutes, to make the connection? But to me it seems odd than the timetable can't allow a good 5 - 10 mins connection time, the powere that be must think that anyone travelling to London from Manchester would only use Avanti and wouldn't even consider x at Crewe onto LNR!

Or it may be that a path 5 min later from Crewe doesn't work?

It's more like a 6 minute connection - the xx10 south Wales departure has a 3 minute dwell in the standard hour. However that's still shy of the rather high 10 minute connection time at Crewe - I suppose that's probably more to allow for trekking from e.g. platform 9/10/12 to 2, but for most connections it's a lot more than is needed. It highlights the limitations of station-wide connection times, rather than using platform data.

Or even from 5 to 7, which appears on a random check to be the new order from December, with a Down Avanti in 6.

 

[Howardh]

Or are they deliberately setting a 65-min connection to avoid people making delay repay claims against failed connection at Crewe?

I suppose there are alternative Northern services (Manchester-Crewe) which take longer than TfW but - in my experience - can guarantee you a seat and room for luggage, at least off-peak! I try to avoid TfW as much as I do Avanti, their trains seem woefully short of carriages even off-peak.
But back to Avanti and customer experience, a lady I know has just explained that she was compensated for complaining with first-class tickets Manchester/London ret (weekend) and thoroughly enjoyed the journey.
Forgot to ask what the original complaint about Avanti was!

 

[gazzaa2]

Is that peak or off-peak hours? Last time I used that route I went first-class advanced, mid-day midweek, got a seat OK, the rest of the train had plenty of room at Crewe but filled up to standing by Euston.
Would still use it again in preference to Avanti, although a catering trolly would be welcome!

Weekend mostly

 

[Kite159]

I suppose there are alternative Northern services (Manchester-Crewe) which take longer than TfW but - in my experience - can guarantee you a seat and room for luggage, at least off-peak! I try to avoid TfW as much as I do Avanti, their trains seem woefully short of carriages even off-peak.
But back to Avanti and customer experience, a lady I know has just explained that she was compensated for complaining with first-class tickets Manchester/London ret (weekend) and thoroughly enjoyed the journey.
Forgot to ask what the original complaint about Avanti was!

Although using Northern will cost more than using the "WMR/LNR/TFW" only fare from London to Manchester, which considering those cost an extra 20-30p over the "WMR & LNR" only fare from London to Crewe. To make using Northern worthwhile you will need to buy advance tickets for the Northern services (as an period return for Crewe - Manchester is £19.90 for any permitted flexible ticket).

 

[Howardh]

Although using Northern will cost more than using the "WMR/LNR/TFW" only fare from London to Manchester, which considering those cost an extra 20-30p over the "WMR & LNR" only fare from London to Crewe. To make using Northern worthwhile you will need to buy advance tickets for the Northern services (as an period return for Crewe - Manchester is £19.90 for any permitted flexible ticket).

My ticket would be Bolton - Crewe (Northern) then Crewe - London, although wondering if BON/Picc then Picc/Crewe (all Northern) would be cheaper? But any ticket which doesn't state a specific TOC would allow travel to Crewe on Avanti! In fact that's happened to me in reverse, LNW to Crewe and then onto an Avanti to Manchester!

 

[Watershed]

My ticket would be Bolton - Crewe (Northern) then Crewe - London, although wondering if BON/Picc then Picc/Crewe (all Northern) would be cheaper? But any ticket which doesn't state a specific TOC would allow travel to Crewe on Avanti! In fact that's happened to me in reverse, LNW to Crewe and then onto an Avanti to Manchester!

Buying Advances from Bolton to Manchester and Manchester to Crewe is probably cheapest. Or, better still, buying a Manchester to London WMR/LNR/TfW only fare (as it costs just pennies more than the equivalent from Crewe), and then using TfW if the times suit.

 

[Howardh]

Buying Advances from Bolton to Manchester and Manchester to Crewe is probably cheapest. Or, better still, buying a Manchester to London WMR/LNR/TfW only fare (as it costs just pennies more than the equivalent from Crewe), and then using TfW if the times suit.

I suppose this has been asked on here a million times - if you book leg A (advance, TOC 1), leg B (advance, TOC 2) then leg 3 (advance, TOC 3) and one leg delays you, is your ticket still good for the later trains even though they aren't the ones you should be on assuming you use the same TOC as originally booked?