Avanti reduced timetable – passenger experiences

[Howardh]

Putting in the base plan and STP alterations are two very different things, don't ever expect 12 week advance tickets to come back as an industry norm, as they won't.

That's why a lot of us used the rail - because we could guarantee getting cheap advances. If that's to go and I can't get advances when we want to travel, (a) I won't use the trains and (b) I won't travel to UK resorts because hotels/rail are booked at the same time.

London/Brighton/Scotland's loss, Jersey, Costa del Sol's gain. I know I can book cheap flights months in advance. Not gonna book a week away in GB if I'm sweating on getting a cheap advance.

 

[The Planner]

That's why a lot of us used the rail - because we could guarantee getting cheap advances. If that's to go and I can't get advances when we want to travel, (a) I won't use the trains and (b) I won't travel to UK resorts because hotels/rail are booked at the same time.

London/Brighton/Scotland's loss, Jersey, Costa del Sol's gain. I know I can book cheap flights months in advance. Not gonna book a week away in GB if I'm sweating on getting a cheap advance.

They will still exist, but not at 12 weeks, it will be 8 at best. Your money your choice.

 

[43066]

Putting in the base plan and STP alterations are two very different things, don't ever expect 12 week advance tickets to come back as an industry norm, as they won't.

Perhaps no bad thing

As I’ve witnessed first hand a few times recently quite a few passengers travelling on advances seem to wish to treat then as if they were anytime tickets, demanding to board trains before/after the one they’re booked onto, and often becoming angry/abusive when refused.

Then of course there is the assumption that heaven and earth will be moved, including taxis being laid on etc. out of all proportion to the cost of the fare paid, in the event of disruption.

Long distance operators such as Avanti, LNER, GWR, EMR’s intercity bit are bouncing back the best in terms of numbers, so is there any real business case for these tickets?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Oct 2022 ==

They will still exist, but not at 12 weeks, it will be 8 at best. Your money your choice.

At least this will presumably reduce the risk of lots of advanced tickets being bought for services that then cannot run due to engineering.

 

[Howardh]

They will still exist, but not at 12 weeks, it will be 8 at best. Your money your choice.

That's simply not good enough. I book hotel rooms 10 -12 weeks in advance and train tickets at the same time. Where's the incentive to do that if advances are to be 8 weeks or fewer notice? When I can book Ryanair/Easyjet etc well in advance?

 

[43066]

That's simply not good enough. I book hotel rooms 10 -12 weeks in advance and train tickets at the same time. Where's the incentive to do that if advances are to be 8 weeks or fewer notice? When I can book Ryanair/Easyjet etc well in advance?

Advances only make sense as a way to abstract a small amount of additional revenue from otherwise empty seats. Avanti (before the current crisis) were doing a good job of filling their trains, so why does it make sense to offer advances?

To put it another way, why should taxpayer/fare payers subsidise cheap advances on already crowded trains?

 

[Howardh]

Advances only make sense as a way to abstract a small amount of additional revenue from otherwise empty seats. Avanti (before the current crisis) were doing a good job of filling their trains, so why does it make sense to offer advances?

To put it another way, why should taxpayer/fare payers subsidise cheap advances on already crowded trains?

Okay, I'll fly then.

 

[43066]

Okay, I'll fly then.

Pays your money, takes your choice.

Your decision will be appreciated by someone with a much more expensive anytime ticket who can get a seat!

 

[Howardh]

Pays your money, takes your choice.

Your decision will be appreciated by someone with a much more expensive anytime ticket who can get a seat!

They are welcome to it. But if taxpayers "subsidise" the railways, and then those taxpayers are priced out of rail travel (ie the retired, tourist, day trippers) then I would suggest they aren't going to be happy.

 

[43066]

They are welcome to it. But if taxpayers "subsidise" the railways, and then those taxpayers are priced out of rail travel (ie the retired, tourist, day trippers) then I would suggest they aren't going to be happy.

Unfortunately this rather overlooks the reality that the tax payers who don’t regularly use the railway rather outnumber those who do. Hence the now long established government policy of shifting more of the cost of the industry onto fare payers.

However I’m conscious we are now drifting off the topic of Avanti specifically.

 

[The Planner]

That's simply not good enough. I book hotel rooms 10 -12 weeks in advance and train tickets at the same time. Where's the incentive to do that if advances are to be 8 weeks or fewer notice? When I can book Ryanair/Easyjet etc well in advance?

It may not be, but that is the direction the industry is moving in.

 

[Howardh]

It may not be, but that is the direction the industry is moving in.

The industry as a whole, or just the Avanti part of it?

 

[Kite159]

If you remove advance tickets they will simply use other forms of transport if the only tickets they can get are offpeak returns. Long distance Rail travel will just become more unaffordable. Short distance flows, especially on Northern shouldn't have advance tickets (i.e booked train only from Stockport to Piccadilly).

 

[43066]

If you remove advance tickets they will simply use other forms of transport if the only tickets they can get are offpeak returns. Long distance Rail travel will just become more unaffordable. Short distance flows, especially on Northern shouldn't have advance tickets (i.e booked train only from Stockport to Piccadilly).

But not unaffordable to the people the railway wants (and can be successful at attracting), though.

Hence threads like this:

What's happened to the cheap advances?

There are also people to be found (both in and out of the industry) who believe that having different fares for the same journey (based on when you book and/or when you travel) is manifestly unfair. Yes, although at least some of those naively think that the cheapest tier of fares could apply...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Short distance flows, especially on Northern shouldn't have advance tickets (i.e booked train only from Stockport to Piccadilly).

Even worse on that particular flow, are Avanti cynically pricing walk up route "Avanti" tickets at 10p less than the inter-available ticket.

 

[The Planner]

The industry as a whole, or just the Avanti part of it?

All of it.

 

[Kite159]

Even worse on that particular flow, are Avanti cynically pricing walk up route "Avanti" tickets at 10p less than the inter-available ticket.

That isn't the only route where "Avanti only" fares are set to be 10p less than the any permitted route. (Crewe - Manchester & Liverpool springs to mind).

I think they are a left over from the days of Virgin where the "Virgin only" fares did offer a reasonable saving which was worth limiting yourself to Virgin trains.

 

[Master29]

Advances only make sense as a way to abstract a small amount of additional revenue from otherwise empty seats. Avanti (before the current crisis) were doing a good job of filling their trains, so why does it make sense to offer advances?

To put it another way, why should taxpayer/fare payers subsidise cheap advances on already crowded trains?

Why do I detect a note of "holier than though" here. Why should taxpayers bail out Private companies on that logic and we don't get the choice.

 

[Watershed]

That isn't the only route where "Avanti only" fares are set to be 10p less than the any permitted route. (Crewe - Manchester & Liverpool springs to mind).

I think they are a left over from the days of Virgin where the "Virgin only" fares did offer a reasonable saving which was worth limiting yourself to Virgin trains.

They are; the Avanti only season tickets retain the reasonable saving of Virgin only days (around 20-25%) as they realise that season ticket holders aren't going to fall for the scam of a 10p discount.

But the single/return tickets were hiked to 10p less than the Any Permitted back in the May 2020 fares round, as reported on the forum.

 

[jfollows]

That isn't the only route where "Avanti only" fares are set to be 10p less than the any permitted route. (Crewe - Manchester & Liverpool springs to mind).

I think they are a left over from the days of Virgin where the "Virgin only" fares did offer a reasonable saving which was worth limiting yourself to Virgin trains.

Prices hiked in May 2020, yes. The Virgin-only first return Wilmslow-Manchester was something I used, it was 100% money to Virgin for otherwise-empty seats, I was happy to sit with my shopping in the train for 20+ minutes before leaving Manchester on the way home. Then the money-grabbing so-and-sos decided to play games with underpricing fares by 10p for ticket machines so that people would buy them for immediate travel and they'd get 100% of the money. Needless to say I stopped using them.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Even worse on that particular flow, are Avanti cynically pricing walk up route "Avanti" tickets at 10p less than the inter-available ticket.

And a further comment as regards the Stockport->Manchester flow, the vastly reduced Avanti timetable means that for your 10p "Avanti only" saving, you are restricting yourself to just 1 Avanti train per hour, thus excluding the 9 or 10 other TOC services typically operating hourly during most of the day. Madness!

 

[Watershed]

And a further comment as regards the Stockport->Manchester flow, the vastly reduced Avanti timetable means that for your 10p "Avanti only" saving, you are restricting yourself to just 1 Avanti train per hour, thus excluding the 9 or 10 other TOC services typically operating hourly during most of the day. Madness!

For Wilmslow to Manchester it's even worse, as there are only 3 Avanti trains a day in each direction (out of a total of 70), and in fact it's impossible to make a day trip (in that direction) using just Avanti!

 

[jfollows]

For Wilmslow to Manchester it's even worse, as there are only 3 Avanti trains a day in each direction (out of a total of 70), and in fact it's impossible to make a day trip (in that direction) using just Avanti!

For sure, but I’m thinking of when it was an hourly service and presumably will be again.

 

[43066]

Why do I detect a note of "holier than though" here.

I have no idea. You tell me?

Why should taxpayers bail out Private companies on that logic and we don't get the choice.

By “bail out” I think you mean subsidise? In a civilised society we all have to pay for things we don’t use, especially where services are deemed essential. I might as well ask why, as someone the right side of 40 who doesn’t drive, should I have to subsidise roads, or meals on wheels services for elderly people?

Whether they’re provided by public or private sector businesses is a different (and largely irrelevant) matter.

 

[Mag_seven]

I detect we may be going a little off topic here so can I steer everyone back onto the topic of this thread which is to discuss passenger experiences of the Avanti reduced timetable.

thanks

 

[317 forever]

I have noticed the use of 'seat colours' from conductors to identify parts of the train which will be short platforming, very helpful, and employs common sense.

Yes, I heard that when I used an LNWR double-unit train in August.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Not a great day for Avanti trains yesterday. I was on the 0747 LIV-EUS which was delayed for 81 mins due to a curtain on the power cable at Runcorn (see different thread). Diversionary routes, presumably via Earlestown or St Helens Central were unavailable due to engineering works. The National Rail app and #Runcorn proved to be the best sources of information as we waited at Lime Street - and the train manager did his best. Realtimetrains was next to useless.

I was booked on the 1907 EUS-LIV return but, in mid-afternoon, the National Rail app showed this as cancelled, along with the 1810 EUS-CTR and several other trains out of EUS about between 1800 and 1930. So I made sure I got out of Brisbane Road the second the final whistle went and dashed back to EUS to catch the 1807 EUS-LIV. Anticipating this would be very overcrowded with the usual Le Mans scramble when the gate opened, I did what experienced rail enthusiasts do and looked for the likely platform number on Realtimetrains. It got it wrong and had been next to useless throughout about the day's cancellations. To exacerbate matters, the 1807 put in an extra stop at MKC, presumably as the CTR train had been cancelled. Whether MKC passengers should have been asked to travel on a West Midlands train instead is an interesting debate.

In the event, the 1907 did run and on time, but terminated at CRE due to staff issues.

As any regular football supporter will know, travelling by train on a Saturday night is a very risky business due to the multiple cancellations on all sorts of lines. You always need to have plans B, C and D. On many occasions, I have driven to games instead, or stayed overnight, due to lack of confidence in the railways to get me home.

 

[AVK17]

Not a great day for Avanti trains yesterday. I was on the 0747 LIV-EUS which was delayed for 81 mins due to a curtain on the power cable at Runcorn (see different thread). Diversionary routes, presumably via Earlestown or St Helens Central were unavailable due to engineering works. The National Rail app and #Runcorn proved to be the best sources of information as we waited at Lime Street - and the train manager did his best. Realtimetrains was next to useless.

I was booked on the 1907 EUS-LIV return but, in mid-afternoon, the National Rail app showed this as cancelled, along with the 1810 EUS-CTR and several other trains out of EUS about between 1800 and 1930. So I made sure I got out of Brisbane Road the second the final whistle went and dashed back to EUS to catch the 1807 EUS-LIV. Anticipating this would be very overcrowded with the usual Le Mans scramble when the gate opened, I did what experienced rail enthusiasts do and looked for the likely platform number on Realtimetrains. It got it wrong and had been next to useless throughout about the day's cancellations. To exacerbate matters, the 1807 put in an extra stop at MKC, presumably as the CTR train had been cancelled. Whether MKC passengers should have been asked to travel on a West Midlands train instead is an interesting debate.

In the event, the 1907 did run and on time, but terminated at CRE due to staff issues.

As any regular football supporter will know, travelling by train on a Saturday night is a very risky business due to the multiple cancellations on all sorts of lines. You always need to have plans B, C and D. On many occasions, I have driven to games instead, or stayed overnight, due to lack of confidence in the railways to get me home.

I don’t understand some of what you’ve posted. What is EUS CTR LIV MKC CRE please?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I don’t understand some of what you’ve posted. What is EUS CTR LIV MKC CRE please?

Probably meant to be abbreviations / station codes for London Euston, Chester, Liverpool Lime Street, Milton Keynes Central and Crewe stations respectively. Such abbreviations should normally always be explained / clarified, according to forum rules.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2022 ==

As any regular football supporter will know, travelling by train on a Saturday night is a very risky business due to the multiple cancellations on all sorts of lines. You always need to have plans B, C and D. On many occasions, I have driven to games instead, or stayed overnight, due to lack of confidence in the railways to get me home.

Indeed. As well I didn't rely on the 1852 Avanti Southbound service from Edinburgh Waverley yesterday.

 

[gazzaa2]

Not a great day for Avanti trains yesterday. I was on the 0747 LIV-EUS which was delayed for 81 mins due to a curtain on the power cable at Runcorn (see different thread). Diversionary routes, presumably via Earlestown or St Helens Central were unavailable due to engineering works. The National Rail app and #Runcorn proved to be the best sources of information as we waited at Lime Street - and the train manager did his best. Realtimetrains was next to useless.

I was booked on the 1907 EUS-LIV return but, in mid-afternoon, the National Rail app showed this as cancelled, along with the 1810 EUS-CTR and several other trains out of EUS about between 1800 and 1930. So I made sure I got out of Brisbane Road the second the final whistle went and dashed back to EUS to catch the 1807 EUS-LIV. Anticipating this would be very overcrowded with the usual Le Mans scramble when the gate opened, I did what experienced rail enthusiasts do and looked for the likely platform number on Realtimetrains. It got it wrong and had been next to useless throughout about the day's cancellations. To exacerbate matters, the 1807 put in an extra stop at MKC, presumably as the CTR train had been cancelled. Whether MKC passengers should have been asked to travel on a West Midlands train instead is an interesting debate.

In the event, the 1907 did run and on time, but terminated at CRE due to staff issues.

As any regular football supporter will know, travelling by train on a Saturday night is a very risky business due to the multiple cancellations on all sorts of lines. You always need to have plans B, C and D. On many occasions, I have driven to games instead, or stayed overnight, due to lack of confidence in the railways to get me home.

Yeah, I needed to get from Liv to Birmingham when the power was down. Managed to change at Warrington via Northern and get the Avanti from Bank Quay which worked out without too much time lost. Used Standard Premium for an empty carriage which wasn't checked either. The return in the afternoon was packed out and about 20 mins late despite leaving on time but not too bad considering.

When i'm going to London on the train for football i'm always weary of getting there later than about 6 for the return. Especially nowadays.

 

[Pacef8]

On tuesday we did wigan to waverley on the pride train and it was half empty despite tickets not being available nice refit and cordless phone charging. The return on friday about 7pm was full and no tickets available the train before us was cancelled and the one after a bus getting in at 6.30 am .