Avanti platform staff bawling at passengers

[Bletchleyite]

There's a bloke at Liverpool Central who has taken to yelling at passengers for this indiscretion. He was heard bawling, "Get behind the yellow line, now!" very loudly over the tannoy during the short period I was there on Saturday; hardly professional and I think the general consensus amongst passengers was 'Calm down, calm down'! Merseyrail is one of those places I never expected to hear that sort of thing as the staff are usually fairly patient in my experience.

Merseyrail in my experience has changed and is very much not the friendly place it was in the 90s and earlier.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2023 ==

Oh for goodness sake. You really need to find a different argument. It's hardly sanctimonious.

Just as physics isn't inside information to railway staff.

People don't need educating about what a moving train does if it comes into contact with a human body, it's very easy to work out for yourself.

A train is not going to come into contact with me if I'm half an inch over the line.

This is exactly the sanctimoniousness I'm referring to.

I'm sure there is some class psyche creeping in here too... How dare the staff shout at me!

Nonsense. It's simply that quality staff in quality businesses communicate in a quality way with their customers.

The railway almost never does. The railway shows utter contempt, day in, day out.

As for me being anti staff, I'm not. I am anti the attitude problem that a significant minority of them exhibit when speaking to the people without whom they'd be unemployed. And it's getting worse.

It's just happened on the train I'm on - a guy given a lecture for boarding an earlier train with an Advance when there are serious delays. It might technically be the rules but it's beyond jobsworth - it's contempt. The right thing to do for quality customer service here would be to apologise for the delay, compliment the customer on making a sensible choice and mitigating the railway's need to pay Delay Repay, and to endorse the ticket accordingly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2023 ==

Back to the yellow line, quality management would seek to understand why it wasn't working and how things can be changed to influence behaviour.

But if they can't even get Euston departure board locations right, what hope is there?

 

[greyman42]

We'd surely become a laughing stock if we had to create a national TV, radio and Internet campaign to tell people to stand back from the edge of a platform!

We would and given that most people do not even use trains, it would be a waste of money.

 

[12LDA28C]

As for me being anti staff, I'm not. I am anti the attitude problem that a significant minority of them exhibit when speaking to the people without whom they'd be unemployed. And it's getting worse.

Given the fact that the Government subsidised the railway to keep it running during Covid lockdowns when allegedly 'nobody was travelling', this statement is patently untrue. Not that that is justification for poor customer service of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the fact that the Government subsidised the railway to keep it running during Covid lockdowns when allegedly 'nobody was travelling', this statement is patently untrue.

That was a special case.

Not that that is justification for poor customer service of course.

Indeed, though it seems to perhaps be causing it.

 

[12LDA28C]

Indeed, though it seems to perhaps be causing it.

I would suggest that the ongoing industrial action amongst various grades, no pay rise for years on end, Government's attitude towards the railways and DfT cost-cutting is having a serious impact on front-line staff morale at the moment. Again, not a justification for a poor attitude but perhaps a contributory factor to consider.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would suggest that the ongoing industrial action amongst various grades, no pay rise for years on end, Government's attitude towards the railways and DfT cost-cutting is having a serious impact on front-line staff morale at the moment. Again, not a justification for a poor attitude but perhaps a contributory factor to consider.

Yes, there are many reasons for poor morale leading to poor service at the moment. The thing I struggle with is people saying it is OK to shout at people other than to prevent an immediate danger to safety (which someone a bit over the line isn't, particularly when a train is there - in that case the risk is only one of delays).

 

[Krokodil]

They were previously only on intercity stations where trains ran through without stopping. Someone who only ever used Merseyrail, say, may never have seen one.

Painting them everywhere only started in the 2000s.

I trust that the picture of the sign that said "stand behind the yellow line or you may get sucked off" has been shared far and wide. Certainly by anyone with a juvenile sense of humour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I trust that the picture of the sign that said "stand behind the yellow line or you may get sucked off" has been shared far and wide. Certainly by anyone with a juvenile sense of humour.

Sadly that was fake, though entertaining! I believe it was (allegedly) at Penrith.

 

[modernrail]

We'd surely become a laughing stock if we had to create a national TV, radio and Internet campaign to tell people to stand back from the edge of a platform!

You would not be doing it to tell them to stand back from the edge of a platform would you. How many people, prior to the introduction of yellow lines came a cropper by falling off the platform? I don’t know the number but I will take a guess - hardly any. Humans that use trains are not, as some staff members seem to want to say here - lemmings. 99. something are capable of not falling off a platform or suffering any injury whatsoever. I literally can’t think of the last time I had a platform/train interface incident.

The yellow line is not the platform edge. It is a marking that has been introduced that has a meaning. Just as all the markings on the road are taught to every single human we allow to drive on the road, so markings that are considered so important to the future of the human race that platform staff feel entitled to shout their head off at any passenger who steps over it need an education package to go with them. Exactly what that package should be is for people who can balance budget and penetration of the mind to work out. They will have their work cut out to explain the jibberish markings at Machester P platforms 13/14, which you usually can’t see in any case because the platform is too full.

Oh and we consider it necessary to point out in national TV adverts that it is stupid and deadly to get drunk and drive and that smoking kills, even though plenty has been spent making those rather obvious points for decades now. I can’t remember the last time a police officer stood in a pub car park and shouted it at anybody going to their car mind.

 

[Krokodil]

Sadly that was fake, though entertaining! I believe it was (allegedly) at Penrith.

Probably did raise awareness in the meantime

 

[Starmill]

There's something about London gatelines. I'd say south of London is worst, they can barely grunt at you half the time. It's like they just went to London Buses for recruitment. (London bus drivers often similarly only grunt at you, in some cases because they were former Routemaster drivers who never had to talk to anyone anyway).

The LNR staff on 8-11 at Euston are always professional, though.

On the infrequent occasions I do board a London Bus I usually I like to offer quite an energetic, but still friendly, "good afternoon!" or similar, with a broad smile, just to see what the reaction is.

 

[DNCharingX]

Two cents from your screamy shouty dispatcher here.

First, this whole thread, I get it. I wouldn't like to be shouted at, the guy/girl shouting at me also probably doesn't like it. Contrary to popular belief, dispatchers don't take decibel tests before contract. I never came into the railway to bark at passengers and I hardly ever shout apart from at work. One day I will probably lose my voice to this job - should probably get myself a Teleque ASAP.

Some people, pretty good at shouting. You can tell the type who really have to try to shout and be heard from those who have it second nature. As part of training, I'm told that I have to shout at anyone who (paraphrasing) is putting themselves at risk. PTI and whatnot. In this job, I find myself wondering "why can't these fully grown men/women conduct themselves properly."

Dispatchers having to shout is more of a reflection on society than on the dispatchers. Even though the dispatchers are shouting for your safety to prevent something more serious - and a lot of people don't listen, so you have to do it repeatedly until the message gets through. Absolute worst case scenario, you're at least covering yourself - "I did everything I could".

An example, you've missed your train. No amount of trying the doors will allow you onboard. I'm not going to get a door release for you. Some people get the message (not seeing the service advertised should have been the message, and ideally Gateline would've stopped you from getting further), and some don't, so you have to shout a mixture of things, all basically saying "leave now", and you're exhausted by the end. Some shouting is cautionary, and others it's instinctive and genuine, you genuinely fear that person is going to be pulled under the wheels.

That said, people do seem fine with the shouting to prevent danger (and those that aren't, have probably been on the receiving end and didn't like it... public embarassment and whatnot. Would you rather have been centimetres from the third rail instead?) and I do agree that shouting for the sake of it is not good, or when it's not warranted. If you're on the wrong side of the line, and there's nothing coming, you do you. Otherwise, the rulebook says that I have to warn anyone putting themselves in danger. Mandated, like, if something happens, they will quote that at you.

Some of my colleagues don't even shout, and ideally you wouldn't have to. These are adults, you're not here to babysit them, their consequences and whatnot, but it will all come down to what you did in a please explain. Generally speaking, most people use the railway properly, but if we have to shout, it's to protect you (from yourself, ironically), and also perhaps so you can reconsider in the future. I (at least) don't do it to be nasty.

You can play stupid games, but it's the job to make sure you don't win stupid prizes.

 

[12LDA28C]

You would not be doing it to tell them to stand back from the edge of a platform would you. How many people, prior to the introduction of yellow lines came a cropper by falling off the platform? I don’t know the number but I will take a guess - hardly any. Humans that use trains are not, as some staff members seem to want to say here - lemmings. 99. something are capable of not falling off a platform or suffering any injury whatsoever. I literally can’t think of the last time I had a platform/train interface incident.

You'd be surprised how many people fall off the platform onto the track, it happens fairly regularly on the tube network, for example. Not so often on the main line but still happens.

 

[Archie810]

I get the fact its entirely for safety but it still gives the impression of the railway being an unfriendly and unwelcoming place, the fact that you have to rely on people just knowing the rules shows that more should be done to spread the message in a more constructive way. I feel like the reasons people cross the line is much more diverse than simply 'people are stupid'. Some people have never used trains here before, some people may be visually impaired, there are some stations where the area behind the line get very crowded and traversing the platform is very difficult, some people have learning difficulties. I also feel like people trying to open doors after they have been locked is more of a reaction caused by instinct and stress. I feel like the currant system is just not enough and not the right approach.

 

[bramling]

You'd be surprised how many people fall off the platform onto the track, it happens fairly regularly on the tube network

It actually doesn’t. It is very rare for people to accidentally end up on the track on LU, and in fact virtually unheard of when one discounts incidents where alcohol is the main contributory factor.

 

[modernrail]

You'd be surprised how many people fall off the platform onto the track, it happens fairly regularly on the tube network, for example. Not so often on the main line but still happens

It actually doesn’t. It is very rare for people to accidentally end up on the track on LU.

I also wonder how many incidents there are with people falling between platform and train when the train is stationary rather than incidents involving stepping over the yellow line and being sucked off or similar. If the former is the greater, one problem with the barking of platform staff is that it would be giving disproportionate attention to the lesser danger. I am not a behavioural psychologist but I would guess that then risks removing natural awareness of remaining dangers…’ I have stayed behind the yellow line until the train came to a complete stop so now I will be fine’.

I personally find the best combination to be auto-announcers for encouraging standing back for passing trains and a firm but polite ‘stand clear’ at increasing volume to anybody who is making a dash for a train that has just closed its doors who hasn’t got the message after their attempt to open the door has failed.

 

[12LDA28C]

It actually doesn’t. It is very rare for people to accidentally end up on the track on LU.

Are you actually just arguing for the sake of it?

Let's see - so far this year:

19th August 2023 (ten days ago) - a person dies after falling onto the track at Elephant & Castle station.
26th June 2023 - woman suffers life-changing injuries after falling on the track at King's Cross tube station.
30th April 2023 - woman suffers serious injuries after falling onto the track at King's Cross Victoria Line.
12th February 2023 - person dies after falling on the track at Hanger Lane tube station.


Yep, incredibly rare - these are just some of the incidents reported in the media. Plenty of incidents go unreported as they do not result in serious injury.

 

[Horizon22]

I get the fact its entirely for safety but it still gives the impression of the railway being an unfriendly and unwelcoming place, the fact that you have to rely on people just knowing the rules shows that more should be done to spread the message in a more constructive way. I feel like the reasons people cross the line is much more diverse than simply 'people are stupid'. Some people have never used trains here before, some people may be visually impaired, there are some stations where the area behind the line get very crowded and traversing the platform is very difficult, some people have learning difficulties. I also feel like people trying to open doors after they have been locked is more of a reaction caused by instinct and stress. I feel like the currant system is just not enough and not the right approach.

And a sharp, louder voice tends to focus the mind at the key point of dispatch. The Platform-Train Interface (PTI) is the most dangerous part of railway operations and constantly drilled into people who dispatch, which includes platform staff, guards and drivers.

 

[AverageJoe]

I think something that hasn’t been mentioned is the possibility of suicides.

When I approached or leave a platform I’m looking at those close to the edge and trying to read body language and facial expressions and figure out if I’m gonna need the emergency brake or not.

When the platform edge is clear it gives me a much clearer view of potential vulnerable people.

 

[bramling]

19th August 2023 (ten days ago) - a person dies after falling onto the track at Elephant & Castle station.

Believed to be a graffiti vandal accessing the Bakerloo Sidings. Not relevant.

26th June 2023 - woman suffers life-changing injuries after falling on the track at King's Cross tube station.

Believed to be attempted suicide. Not relevant.

30th April 2023 - woman suffers serious injuries after falling onto the track at King's Cross Victoria Line.

Mobility scooter drove off platform edge, believed to have accidentally operated scooter in the wrong direction. Not relevant.

12th February 2023 - person dies after falling on the track at Hanger Lane tube station.

Believed to be a deliberate act. Not relevant.

Yep, incredibly rare

Apparently so.

 

[uglymonkey]

"get the fact its entirely for safety but it still gives the impression of the railway being an unfriendly and unwelcoming place". But it is a unfriendly and unwelcoming place. Try being disabled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"get the fact its entirely for safety but it still gives the impression of the railway being an unfriendly and unwelcoming place". But it is a unfriendly and unwelcoming place. Try being disabled.

Bawling at people rather than designing appropriate safety systems to drive behaviour is typical of the railway being a hostile place for all customers - but I agree it's even worse for disabled people.

Think 20 Zones (which are designed to make 20mph a natural speed to drive) rather than 20 limits with camera enforcement.

(In a railway context, that means designing platforms so people are naturally encouraged not to stand in places you don't want them to, partly by making it really obvious with stuff like hatching and clear but polite automatic announcements*, but partly by designing where you DO want people to stand/walk to be convenient to do so, which means redesigning some platform building layouts so there is a wide enough walkway the correct side of the line. As one example, this might mean removing benches and replacing with single side-facing seating so legs and bags in front of them aren't blocking a safe place to walk).

Shouting at people is the LAST line of defence to avoid a serious accident in the "triangle" of H&S measures, below even provision of PPE. Designing for (passive) safety comes far sooner - that is, remove the risk or design the situation so that people naturally avoid it. That means a shout should really be logged as a near miss if this is a safety matter - or we need to admit that it isn't always that, it's sometimes simply to ensure punctual departure.

* TfL have done studies on how to do announcements to influence behaviour. Note for instance that on the S-stock a male voice (is it Phil Sayer? I forget) gives safety instructions, while a female one does information - this has been found to be far more effective than just having bored Anne or one of the text to speech announcers waffling on constantly, while Connex implemented the rather sensible dedicated "toot-toot-toot-tooooot" tone prefacing any "stand back" announcement.

 

[jon0844]

Many platforms don't have speakers covering the whole length, and there are now rules on speaker volumes to appease residents living nearby, so you cannot rely on that alone.

Plus people wear noise cancelling headphones/earphones, so staff may well assume the lack of movement is because they can't be heard (and, yes, potentially hard of hearing) - not that people are just ignoring them, or getting upset someone is shouting and refusing to move or even moving into an even worse position to make a point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many platforms don't have speakers covering the whole length, and there are now rules on speaker volumes to appease residents living nearby, so you cannot rely on that alone.

Indeed, you shouldn't rely on that alone. The whole system needs to be redesigned, which includes announcements (and may indeed mean better designed, more directional speaker systems set up so announcements are clearly heard on the platform but not outside the station, and perhaps aren't made at all if people aren't detected as present on the station - lots of ways to do that nowadays). If you read my full post and the associated speculative thread you'll see the approach I mean.

Shouting won't work on someone wearing noise-cancellers either. It's the equivalent of a police officer standing in the middle of a dangerous junction waving their arms around rather than redesigning it to be safe.

We've - quite understandably - moved from a system designed based around the idea that if a train is about to come through at speed you stand behind the yellow line* to one where you must be behind it at all times with no exceptions unless actually walking to/from an already stationary train to board/alight it. That's been done with nothing else whatsoever redesigned accordingly, and it simply isn't workable.

But this is how the railway/DaFT does things - and a bit of staff frustration is understandable as a result. See also closing ticket offices without redesigning the ticketing system for self service.

* Please nobody come along waving their PTS certificate and argue otherwise, as that's how it was, regardless of how it was meant to be.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I personally find the best combination to be auto-announcers for encouraging standing back for passing trains and a firm but polite ‘stand clear’ at increasing volume to anybody who is making a dash for a train that has just closed its doors who hasn’t got the message after their attempt to open the door has failed.

Not always clear to passengers when a train is stood on a platform at a busy station as to whether the train's doors have already opened (and now been closed either automatically or because the train is about to depart) or whether they've not yet been opened in the first place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not always clear to passengers when a train is stood on a platform at a busy station as to whether the train's doors have already opened (and now been closed either automatically or because the train is about to depart) or whether they've not yet been opened in the first place.

The orange light gives a clue of whether they're released, to be fair. The German "bong bing bitte einsteigen" announcements help, we really should have an equivalent, though they aren't a solution on their own. Nothing's a solution on its own - shouting definitely isn't - there needs to be a safe system designed based on the principles of behavioural science and extensively tested, and the same at every single station in the country.

 

[jon0844]

Nobody should rely on the CIS to inform them a train might be coming (and even then, how quickly is it coming? A few seconds, 30-40 seconds because the next signalling block is quite a distance, or it has already passed because of a delay that is affecting the screens so is totally pointless.).

In any case, people aren't looking at the screens the whole time. They're often too far apart from each other for one thing. Some might be broken. Some platforms may not even have screens on the platforms themselves, with something at the entrance only.

If we had all the money, the industry could put in better lighting, more screens, a speaker every few metres (then you could turn down the volume), more paint on the platforms, maybe even text, posters explaining the dangers, and more staff to patrol and gently ask people to move back so nobody has to shout at anyone because every platform has 2 or 3 staff.

That's not going to happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's not going to happen.

Perfection is the enemy of the good. Will someone please take that phrase, print it out on heavy card, roll it up and (metaphorically, and in the nicest way possible) belt the railway (and several posters on here who appear to work on it) round the head with it? That it isn't a perfect solution is used all over the place on here and on the railway more widely as an excuse not to make things a bit better on an incrememental basis.

There are low-cost, effective options. I mention repeatedly, but people continue to ignore, hatching, and a dedicated announcement, as well as an earworm "slogan". The railway can have the latter for free - "stay back, stay safe"*. There you go - announce that every time a train is due to pass or depart and it'll soon get in peoples' heads. Posters cost next to nothing, the railway loves creating non-posters to fill poster sites that have nothing useful to put in them, e.g. Railcard posters.

Much more should be done to prevent the need for the shouting. If it's not the situation will continue to be unsatisfactory - staff getting angry and shouting, people ignoring them and the railway's already tattered reputation for customer service continuing to descend.

* SSS isn't the only one of these - does anyone else remember "it's fruitless if it's not orange" advertising the new orange central door locking lights in the 90s?

 

[jon0844]

People on here hate the See it, Say it, Sorted messages. Many hate ANY announcements. You're asking for another one to be played at regular intervals? Good luck with that!

 

[Horizon22]

Perfection is the enemy of the good. Will someone please take that phrase, print it out on heavy card, roll it up and (metaphorically, and in the nicest way possible) belt the railway (and several posters on here who appear to work on it) round the head with it? That it isn't a perfect solution is used all over the place on here and on the railway more widely as an excuse not to make things a bit better on an incrememental basis.

There are low-cost, effective options. I mention repeatedly, but people continue to ignore, hatching, and a dedicated announcement, as well as an earworm "slogan". The railway can have the latter for free - "stay back, stay safe"*. There you go - announce that every time a train is due to pass or depart and it'll soon get in peoples' heads. Posters cost next to nothing, the railway loves creating non-posters to fill poster sites that have nothing useful to put in them, e.g. Railcard posters.

Much more should be done to prevent the need for the shouting. If it's not the situation will continue to be unsatisfactory - staff getting angry and shouting, people ignoring them and the railway's already tattered reputation for customer service continuing to descend.

* SSS isn't the only one of these - does anyone else remember "it's fruitless if it's not orange" advertising the new orange central door locking lights in the 90s?

Ah yes a dedicated announcement - this from the forum who think there are too many announcements?!

Many places do have announcements about standing behind the yellow line and posters and a whole range of other tools, but sometimes you need more blunt and direct action as all the “polite” measures simply do not work - as many who regularly dispatch have indeed pointed out.