Avanti not showing all fare options?

[voyagerdude220]

Hi all,

I recently had a quick look on Avanti's website for ticket prices Wigan North Western to Preston for tomorrow (was looking to see if their seat picker will work- not actually wanting to buy a ticket).

For some reason it isn't showing any of Northern's £3.30 Advance single fares- which are available 06:16/07:06/08:06 departures Wigan to Preston tomorrow morning.
It only offers walk up fares- so it's stating the Avanti cheap day single is the cheapest option.

Does anyone know why Avanti aren't offering the Advance fares? Other website (e.g. LNER) offer the full range of fares- including the £3.30 Advance fares.

Ironically the Avanti website states "Unbeatable prices, guaranteed."

 

[JonathanH]

Could they potentially have had issues with people thinking that, because they had booked with Avanti, the ticket should be accepted by them.

 

[AlterEgo]

Could they potentially have had issues with people thinking that, because they had booked with Avanti, the ticket should be accepted by them.

That doesn’t make any sense. Avanti is a site which sells all tickets.

This will be due to some sort of technical problem, which is par for the course with Avanti’s terrible website.

 

[JonathanH]

This will be due to some sort of technical problem, which is par for the course with Avanti’s terrible website.

Just wait until you have to use their new ticket machines...

 

[voyagerdude220]

I've messaged Avanti on Facebook and sent them screenshots of both their website and the other (LNER) website which will happily offer to sell the Northern Advance fares, but Avanti are questioning how accurate the availability of said Advance fares is.

 

[Spandau]

I believe booking offices are required to sell tickets impartially. Does this rule also apply to TOC websites? May an operator only offer ‘any permitted’ products, or perhaps favour their own tickets and exclude competitors?

 

[AlterEgo]

I believe booking offices are required to sell tickets impartially. Does this rule also apply to TOC websites? May an operator only offer ‘any permitted’ products, or perhaps favour their own tickets and exclude competitors?

A website is not an impartial point of sale, no.

 

[yorkie]

Could they potentially have had issues with people thinking that, because they had booked with Avanti, the ticket should be accepted by them.

I would certainly hope not! All retailers should show fares for all train companies, not just their own (unless it is made very clear that they are only showing their own)

Ironically the Avanti website states "Unbeatable prices, guaranteed."

Yes train companies often make such bold statements, yet have insufficient safeguards in place to actually 'guarantee' anything of the sort.

...but Avanti are questioning how accurate the availability of said Advance fares is.

They don't know what they are talking about and are trying to fob you off. This is surprisingly common in the rail industry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Oct 2021 ==

I believe booking offices are required to sell tickets impartially. Does this rule also apply to TOC websites? May an operator only offer ‘any permitted’ products, or perhaps favour their own tickets and exclude competitors?

The rules of 'Impartial Retailing' as defined in the Ticketing Settlement Agreement (TSA) are not applicable here, but the retailer does have a requirement to act in a reasonable manner; if they were deliberately not showing the Advance fares of other train companies, and not making this clear, in an attempt to distort the market, then I would say that is a potential breach of consumer law.

 

[alistairlees]

Hi all,

I recently had a quick look on Avanti's website for ticket prices Wigan North Western to Preston for tomorrow (was looking to see if their seat picker will work- not actually wanting to buy a ticket).

For some reason it isn't showing any of Northern's £3.30 Advance single fares- which are available 06:16/07:06/08:06 departures Wigan to Preston tomorrow morning.
It only offers walk up fares- so it's stating the Avanti cheap day single is the cheapest option.

Does anyone know why Avanti aren't offering the Advance fares? Other website (e.g. LNER) offer the full range of fares- including the £3.30 Advance fares.

Ironically the Avanti website states "Unbeatable prices, guaranteed."

The £3.30 fare is ticket type DG9. This is a relatively recent addition to northern’s range of advance fares. Most likely Avanti have forgotten to add it to their list of ticket types to sell.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I've messaged Avanti on Facebook and sent them screenshots of both their website and the other (LNER) website which will happily offer to sell the Northern Advance fares, but Avanti are questioning how accurate the availability of said Advance fares is.

You honestly wouldn't believe the amount of work required to keep a web site up to date.

 

[SickyNicky]

You honestly wouldn't believe the amount of work required to keep a web site up to date.

Do you mean like Soham station which is now defined in the timetable data but has not (at least as of Friday) been properly described in IDMS (no CRS or NLC).

 

[Wallsendmag]

Do you mean like Soham station which is now defined in the timetable data but has not (at least as of Friday) been properly described in IDMS (no CRS or NLC).

Exactly, I went into our Admin system last week to add it only to find it wasn't in the feed. You wouldn't believe the depots, sidings and bus stops that are in the feed though.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I believe booking offices are required to sell tickets impartially. Does this rule also apply to TOC websites?

They don't have to be impartial, but it must be clearly stated. Avanti don't do this, so they are expected to be impartial, and that *is* their intention. Either they haven't added the ticket types, or less likely, those ticket types are not allowed to be booked by Avanti in the reservation system. As far as I know only LNWR offer the option of prioritising their own trains.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I've just had a quick look on the Avanti website and it still isn't offering the cheap Advance fares between Wigan and Preston and v.v.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Apologies for the bump this thread- Avanti website is now finally showing all fare options between Wigan and Preston- including Northern Advance fares.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I had a different issue with Avanti a couple of weeks ago, and I think quite a big one.

I was travelling to Rugby from Shepreth. An off peak return is valid on ~8am departures from Shepreth connecting to departures from Euston after 09.27 (restriction code 9H). I intended to take the 09.59 to Birmingham. The off peak return is £70.

Their booking engine incorrectly tried to sell me the Anytime Return at £192.80 and wouldn't allow me to depart Shepreth until 09.39, and not the 08.39. I didn't fall for it and a pop up appeared "why didn't you book" - I fed back that they were incorrectly applying the off peak restriction but it hasn't changed since.

Interstingly, if I try to book from Royston (5 minutes closer to London) it will allow me to book the 08.38 connecting to the 09.59 Avanti from EUS for £70 but would only allow me to select 08.24 connecting to the 09.46 WMT from EUS if I paid £192.80.

Totally inconsistent and extractive practice (though I don't doubt it's a genuine error)

In the end I bought from another retailer whose code worked correctly and got an itinerary. Even the barriers at King's Cross let me straight through!

 

[plugwash]

It seems that under restriction code 9H the "unpublished restrictions" used by journey planners are more restrictive than the published restrictions shown to the public. The "unpublished restrictions contain" among many other things.

Not valid to depart STEVENAGE 0300–0918 on any TOC

My guess is that Avanti's website is applying the unpublished restrictions to all stops on the Journey rather than only applying them to the origin of the leg, the destination of the leg and the final destination of the train (which is how brfares says they should be applied, I don't know where exactly brfares get that information from).

 

[Hadders]

I had a different issue with Avanti a couple of weeks ago, and I think quite a big one.

I was travelling to Rugby from Shepreth. An off peak return is valid on ~8am departures from Shepreth connecting to departures from Euston after 09.27 (restriction code 9H). I intended to take the 09.59 to Birmingham. The off peak return is £70.

Their booking engine incorrectly tried to sell me the Anytime Return at £192.80 and wouldn't allow me to depart Shepreth until 09.39, and not the 08.39. I didn't fall for it and a pop up appeared "why didn't you book" - I fed back that they were incorrectly applying the off peak restriction but it hasn't changed since.

Interstingly, if I try to book from Royston (5 minutes closer to London) it will allow me to book the 08.38 connecting to the 09.59 Avanti from EUS for £70 but would only allow me to select 08.24 connecting to the 09.46 WMT from EUS if I paid £192.80.

Totally inconsistent and extractive practice (though I don't doubt it's a genuine error)

In the end I bought from another retailer whose code worked correctly and got an itinerary. Even the barriers at King's Cross let me straight through!

I've had the same issue with Off Peak Return tickets from Stevenage to Manchester over the years, when travelling via London. The restrictions only apply to the leg from Euston to Manchester and any train from Stevenage to London can be used. Unfortunately no-one appears to be able to get this fixed.

There's a thread on here somewhere about it from years ago.

 

[Haywain]

I think there are a number of journey planners that have problems with the restrictions applied to these tickets, as there isn't anything in the various restriction codes that excludes tickets going via London from applying the first set of restrictions. A few years back I found that Trainsplit couldn't deal with this and wanted to overcharge by splitting tickets where this wasn't necessary.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I think there are a number of journey planners that have problems with the restrictions applied to these tickets, as there isn't anything in the various restriction codes that excludes tickets going via London from applying the first set of restrictions. A few years back I found that Trainsplit couldn't deal with this and wanted to overcharge by splitting tickets where this wasn't necessary.

It doesn't seem to be a very difficult issue to fix but there we go!

Trainsplit offered the £70 through fare as without issue this time, which was the cheapest option, but I have a lingering and I'm sure baseless fear of a Trainsplit itinerary being challenged by ill-informed gateline staff (not so much at Kings Cross but I've heard horror stories of Euston and have experienced clueless handling of cross London off peak tickets at Paddington a number of times!

I bought the ticket from LNER in the end, Thameslink offer the £70 fare as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2021 ==

It seems that under restriction code 9H the "unpublished restrictions" used by journey planners are more restrictive than the published restrictions shown to the public. The "unpublished restrictions contain" among many other things.



My guess is that Avanti's website is applying the unpublished restrictions to all stops on the Journey rather than only applying them to the origin of the leg, the destination of the leg and the final destination of the train (which is how brfares says they should be applied, I don't know where exactly brfares get that information from).

This is interesting. I wonder what the significance of 0918 is or was... I can't buy the off peak ticket on an 0913 departure from Stevenage via the TLGN booking engine

 

[Hadders]

I think there are a number of journey planners that have problems with the restrictions applied to these tickets, as there isn't anything in the various restriction codes that excludes tickets going via London from applying the first set of restrictions. A few years back I found that Trainsplit couldn't deal with this and wanted to overcharge by splitting tickets where this wasn't necessary.

It's disgraceful that the industry knows about this problem but has done nothing to fix it. I suspect similar issues exist from Reading, Watford, Luton and Bedford as well as Stevenage.

Taking my example of Stevenage to Manchester an Off Peak Return should be valid to depart Euston at 09:40 arriving Manchester Piccadilly at 11:46. Unfortunately I cannot find a ticketing website that will sell a ticket for this service, the earliest arrival I can achieve is 12:46, a whole hour later.

I wonder how many passengers have been overcharged over the years, the difference between an off Peak Return and an Anytime Return is £324.50.

 

[Haywain]

Taking my example of Stevenage to Manchester an Off Peak Return should be valid to depart Euston at 09:40 arriving Manchester Piccadilly at 11:46. Unfortunately I cannot find a ticketing website that will sell a ticket for this service, the earliest arrival I can achieve is 12:46, a whole hour later.

The trick is to buy from Hitchin in this case. The problem is that so many of these tickets use generic restriction codes that apply to Stevenage etc, as well as London but don't state that it directional as it really should.

 

[Hadders]

The trick is to buy from Hitchin in this case. The problem is that so many of these tickets use generic restriction codes that apply to Stevenage etc, as well as London but don't state that it directional as it really should.

I know that and so do you but 'normal' passengers don't and shouldn't need to know this.

It's a relatively simple fix but in the meantime the railway is content to overcharge passengers £324.50.

Now it's been highlighted on here perhaps someone will fix it.

 

[Haywain]

It's a relatively simple fix

I don't know if that really is the case, but I'm going to raise it with our suppliers tomorrow. Interestingly, the case I cam across some years ago isn't a problem any longer because the restriction code has been changed. The new code, 9A, is an example of how all of these sort of tickets should be handled.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

TPE website until recently wouldn't sell off peak on WCML on Fridays before 0930 (op is all day)

 

[Watershed]

(op is all day)

That's a generalisation.

There are some flows, primarily those set by Avanti, where the Off-Peak tickets are de facto valid at any time as they have restriction 2T - valid from 04:15am.

That certainly does not apply to all flows along the WCML.

 

[alistairlees]

That's a generalisation.

There are some flows, primarily those set by Avanti, where the Off-Peak tickets are de facto valid at any time as they have restriction 2T - valid from 04:15am.

That certainly does not apply to all flows along the WCML.

I think CHESHIRECAT is referring to flows to / from / via London Euston with restriction code 9I, for which all of Friday on the WCML is Off-Peak.

 

[gray1404]

Does all of Friday on the WCLM being off peak only apply to fares set by AWC and not those set by LNR.

 

[Watershed]

Does all of Friday on the WCLM being off peak only apply to fares set by AWC and not those set by LNR.

Yes, I'm not aware of any WMT-set fares where Fridays are generally Off-Peak. However obviously Avanti's "easement" applies to all operators out of Euston, including WMT.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Yes, I'm not aware of any WMT-set fares where Fridays are generally Off-Peak. However obviously Avanti's "easement" applies to all operators out of Euston, including WMT.

My understanding was that Avanti can only have a say about the time restrictions relating to usage of tickets priced by themselves, not other TOCs.

Surely WMT just do their own thing?