ATW to take over 3 W/S sets

[the-gog]

I 2nd that!!

Da iawn - Cymro arall ar RailUK.

(Very good, another Welshman on RailUK)

Could you forward the link to my photos to your colleagues please, as some of them were telling me that they'd like to see the photos when I put them on the net.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/welsh_snapper/sets/72157625938353972/

Thanks.

 

[krus_aragon]

Da iawn - Cymro arall ar RailUK.

(Very good, another Welshman on RailUK)

Triawd!
(A trio of Welsh speakers!)

Thinking back to other ideas in the rumour mill, Grand Central(?)'s open access plans were held up by the ORR pending a guarantee of some (probably ex-WSMR) rolling stock, so ATW are unlikely to get everything. Even given the above denial, I expect one rake will be on its way.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The scenario is plausible- however now in my 8th year of Arriva franchise we KnoW all to well the cry from Penarth House will be "If its not in the franchise agreement it will require extra money". No doubt the begging bowl will be dangling around WAG as we speak

 

[Simon Poole]

I knew that ATW has something to do with the demise of Wrexham Annd Shropshire!

Be intresting to catch when i'm on my Holidays in Wales in the June time an ATW Class 67 but i was hoping the stock went to Chilterns Railways!

 

[Greenback]

ATW = DB

WSMR = DB

Chiltern = DB

It's not hard to see the connection! DB obviously want to use stock they hire in where they can generate the most return. I second the remark about DB being no better than other operators!

 

[merlodlliw]

I think this note from me is better on this thread.

I agree with several on here, there is more to the WSMR closure than meets the eye & although ATW press office denies it, discussions are afoot on stock diagrams for the WAG Expresses,they need DVTs for example,any spare DVTs for 67s around other than WSMR? ready to go.
and with £3.5M of Welsh assembly Govt funds about to be put in ATWs coffers for the 2nd Wag Express along with the £1.7M paid for one years service already running, I remain sceptical.

I am still bugged as to why DB shut down WSMR with only three days notice,its not like there was any opposition between Wrexham and Telford going direct to London.

Time will tell.

 

[TDK]

Sorry about yet another thread, but this just breaking.

I have it from an impeccable source ATW are to take over three W/S sets, so that both WAG Expresses will run via Wrexham

This is the reason for DB pulling the plug on W/S.

The Minister is now being accused of handling this badly by his own party, in fact it seems he is the reason for W/S being folded and getting 55 put out of work in Wrexham for his asperations.

It is also reported the CEO of W/S as saying WSMR victim of "short termism" by DB Regio . He predicted it would have been in profit by Feb 12. Thinks WAG 2 has been handled very poorly by all concerned.

Wag one is worth £1.7M a year
Wag two ...........£3.7M on a 7 year leasing deal.
both out of public funding subsidies

Bob

Your source? I thought you of all people would take what insiders at ATW said as a pinch of salt

 

[scotsman]

I am still bugged as to why DB shut down WSMR with only three days notice,its not like there was any opposition between Wrexham and Telford going direct to London.

So there's no time to start a campaign to save it? A sudden shut down implies that there was no choice but to shut down to the public

 

[TDK]

The Class 57s and assorted mrk 2 + mrk 3 rakes are being replaced by the Wrexham and Shropshire 67s and W&S Mk. 3 rakes from May, as the 57s have reliability issues aplenty and the W&S rakes have push-pull capability, negating the need to run round. Three trains; two in service and one spare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Agreed, it would make a lot more sense; the same idea as in my post.

Your source and evidence?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ATW would have the ability to form up three 4-carriage mk. 2 rakes once the WAG service gets W&S stock (including the mark 2s they have in store), and as ATW own all their mark 2s as krus aragon rightly says, there would be no hiring in/leasing costs to be considered, just track access charges. Of course there are limitations on the suitability of loco hauled trains operating former DMU workings, such as the time penalty at station stops associated with slam door stock and the limited availability of run-round facilities in some areas of the network, but overall it seems like a heck of a good idea: ATW could even hire 57313-57316 from Virgin on a more permanent basis than at present.

I agree with everything krus aragon has said above.

ATW would have to hire the Mk 3's from DB and the 67's
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There wasn't - the train in the way was the W+S service killing two birds with one stone some may say?

There were always paths via Wrexham for the WAG it was ATW who said there were not as it was more economical to run via crewe as the engine had to be run round at Chester
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for going via Wrexham, the only explanation I can think of for why this is possible is that removing WSMR's ECS path from Crewe to Wrexham gives the Gerallt Gymro the slot needed to get through and still arrive at Cardiff before 10am (which was the original reason given for going via Crewe). There could well be a slot languishing about that will allow a 12pm arrival via Wrexham.

If the rakes are indeed reallocated to ATW, without going via Wrexham, well I can just imagie the uproar from that neck of the woods...

What path? WSMR started at Wrexham and didn't have an ECS path from Chester
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I knew that ATW has something to do with the demise of Wrexham Annd Shropshire!

!

Once again YOUR SOURCE
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There is a lot of guess work going on here without any evidence until there is evidence for the reasons why WSMR ceased operating have a bit of respect for their reduntant employess who have enough to worry about other than this drool

 

[sprinterguy]

Your source and evidence?

Tbh, just what has been said on this forum, which has of course trickled down from other sources, so is somewhat less than solid fact. I should probably have said "The Class 57s and assorted mrk 2 + mrk 3 rakes are reported to be being replaced by the Wrexham and Shropshire 67s and W&S Mk. 3 rakes from May", which would have been more appropriate.

ATW would have to hire the Mk 3's from DB and the 67's

Indeed, but the "no hiring/leasing costs required" was referring solely to the mark 2s, which Arriva own outright. Naturally there would be costs involved in leasing the 57s as well as 67s+ mark 3s for the WAG Express, but the conditions are certainly more favourable than is the case for other TOCs.

 

[Max]

Once again YOUR SOURCE

Can you not shout please? The fact that no sources have been given suggests that some of this may be speculation. However, since this forum isn't an academic essay, I'm not sure that referencing is entirely necessary. The poster may not be inclined to reveal their source for reasons of privacy. On the other hand, maybe you could just take it with a pinch of salt instead of shouting.

 

[The Planner]

What path? WSMR started at Wrexham and didn't have an ECS path from Chester

There definitely used to be one on the graph, proper early in the morning. Will check if its still loitering there.

 

[tbtc]

There is a lot of guess work going on here without any evidence

Agreed, the conspiracy theories seem far fetched (even allowing for the medium of internet forums and canteen gossip)...

 

[Gareth Marston]

The current "white space" between Wrexham North and Saltney Jnc means any soutbound additional trains over this route will have to tail chase the existing HHD/CDF or HHD BHI ATW services. If they followed the HHD/BHI trains they would struggle to get to Shrewsbury ahead of the Manchester to Cardiff trains and then tail chase them down the Marches or tailchase the 175 operated HHD/CDF service the whole way.

Theres no way its going to work unless there a complete recast and the Wrexham to Chester section is redoubled. Unless the DVT/MK2/Class 67 sets take the paths of existing Class 175 operated turns. Which then chucks up a load of questions as the commuter flow from Ludlow/Leominster into Hereford uses the 0423 ex HDD and then its a late AM peak service for Abergavenny/Pontypool and Cwmbran into Cardiff.

 

[krus_aragon]

What path? WSMR started at Wrexham and didn't have an ECS path from Chester

I can't find anything direct to quote, but here's some corroborative evidence:

The Wrexham and Shropshire diagrams require three stock diagrams: each night one train is stabled in London at Wembley depot, one at Wrexham station in the secure area created from two disused bay platforms, and one usually runs from Wrexham via Chester to Crewe (LNWR) for maintainance.

www.nwrail.org.uk/nwgoods.htm

I assume this would have come back from Crewe in the morning to form one of the morning departures. A positioning move for the 0723 would coincide with the Gerallt Gymro coming through Chester at 0708.

Hopefully someone can find a trace of this on TRUST to back me up. If not, then I suppose I'm back at the bottom of the pile with the rest of the rumour-mongers. Sorry...

 

[merlodlliw]

Your source? I thought you of all people would take what insiders at ATW said as a pinch of salt

Well I wont give my source, and its not ATW.

Discussions are & have taken place, there is a lot of interest in the DVTs & I am too long in the tooth to believe anything ATW press office says, or some of ATWs senior managers who have no shame.

These are emotional times, I am aware of the sorrow felt by all excellent W/S employees, I think you all have been treated awfully by DB

 

[quarella]

The scenario is plausible- however now in my 8th year of Arriva franchise we KnoW all to well the cry from Penarth House will be "If its not in the franchise agreement it will require extra money". No doubt the begging bowl will be dangling around WAG as we speak

Penarth House?
Supported accommodation for senior citizens http://www.mha.org.uk/hs29.aspx

 

[krus_aragon]

The current "white space" between Wrexham North and Saltney Jnc means any soutbound additional trains over this route will have to tail chase the existing HHD/CDF or HHD BHI ATW services.

Or could the HHD-BHI service tail the Gerallt Gymro?

Forgive the continued amateur theorising, the following is only based on looking at the public timetables (ATW booklets 1 and 4).

The 0520 Shrewsbury to Chester is the first public train timetabled to run through Wrexham, departing WRX at 0604 and arriving at CTR 0625. In the meantime, the 0425 Holyhead to Cardiff leaves CTR at 0620 and arrives at WRX at 0638. I assume from this that a southbound service can leave CTR 5 minutes before a northbound is due to arrive, passing between CTR and Saltney Jn.

On that evidence, given that the next WRX-CTR service arrives at CTR at 0716 (the Virgin service to Euston) a southbound service could leave CTR at 0711 (with the Holyhead-Birmingham service, currently leaving CTR at 0722, tailing the express). A stopping service takes 61 minutes to travel from CTR to Shrewsbury, at which rate the express would get to SHR by 0812, 3 minutes behind its current timing.

The HHD-BHI service currently stands at Shrewsbury for 10 minutes, so could leave CTR a bit later and still get to its path for Birmingham.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Penarth House?
Supported accommodation for senior citizens http://www.mha.org.uk/hs29.aspx

LOL!

Or perhaps their sister establishment: St Mary's House, 47 Penarth Road, Cardiff.

 

[hick]

I'd imagine that sending three ex WSMR sets to ATW would be a tad difficult given that they have been reformed so that there are currently 4 sets in total hanging around the Chilterns. 2 are required in service daily (Chiltern rainbow set and one silver set), one spare on the depot and one due at Doncaster for plug door fitting.

Any ideas Merlodlliw?

 

[The Planner]

I assume from this that a southbound service can leave CTR 5 minutes before a northbound is due to arrive, passing between CTR and Saltney Jn.

The conflict point is Saltney and there will be a single line re-occupation value, probably 2 or 3 minutes without checking.

 

[merlodlliw]

Penarth House?
Supported accommodation for senior citizens http://www.mha.org.uk/hs29.aspx

Arriva Trains Wales

47 Penarth Road
Cardiff
CF10 5DJ

known as Penarth House in the trade
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd imagine that sending three ex WSMR sets to ATW would be a tad difficult given that they have been reformed so that there are currently 4 sets in total hanging around the Chilterns. 2 are required in service daily (Chiltern rainbow set and one silver set), one spare on the depot and one due at Doncaster for plug door fitting.

Any ideas Merlodlliw?

I only put it up as I was told it from a very reliable source, this source tells me of very high interest in the DVTs, also no surprise at the comment from ATW press office. There is also a clamp down on any info from DB to local reporters.

Question time is at Wrexham tonight, on radio 4, a question as been submitted regarding WSMR closure and railways at Wrexham.
It is up to Dimbleby now to allow the question on his programme, Elin Mary Jones WAG Minister is on the panel & will have been briefed.
It is absolutely correct that discussions are being held with WAG/ATW/DB.

 

[jopsuk]

You mean of course "Any Questions" on Radio 4 (on Fridays) with Jonathon Dimbleby- Question Time, on BBC1 TV, is Thursdays with David Dimbleby. Not sure though that in either case the host is the one that chooses all the questions. Also, don't be upset if the matter isn't raised.

 

[merlodlliw]

You mean of course "Any Questions" on Radio 4 (on Fridays) with Jonathon Dimbleby- Question Time, on BBC1 TV, is Thursdays with David Dimbleby. Not sure though that in either case the host is the one that chooses all the questions. Also, don't be upset if the matter isn't raised.

yes its the radio programme, any questions. We will see if the question raises its head. I know they go for a mix of questions.

 

[TDK]

I can't find anything direct to quote, but here's some corroborative evidence:

www.nwrail.org.uk/nwgoods.htm

I assume this would have come back from Crewe in the morning to form one of the morning departures. A positioning move for the 0723 would coincide with the Gerallt Gymro coming through Chester at 0708.

Hopefully someone can find a trace of this on TRUST to back me up. If not, then I suppose I'm back at the bottom of the pile with the rest of the rumour-mongers. Sorry...

I drove for them for 3 years and never did a set go to LNWR or the ETD unless is had a fault and needed maintenance, it always was 2 at Wrexham and one at Wembley
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I only put it up as I was told it from a very reliable source, this source tells me of very high interest in the DVTs, also no surprise at the comment from ATW press office. There is also a clamp down on any info from DB to local reporters.

Question time is at Wrexham tonight, on radio 4, a question as been submitted regarding WSMR closure and railways at Wrexham.
It is up to Dimbleby now to allow the question on his programme, Elin Mary Jones WAG Minister is on the panel & will have been briefed.
It is absolutely correct that discussions are being held with WAG/ATW/DB.

Grand Central are also interested in 67/DVT, Chiltern are interested, ATW are interested as a matter of fact there are quite a few companies interested, it does not mean thay are going there as directly quoted on this forum - by the way MOJO sorry for shouting but it gets on my nerves when a little info escalates into a definate because someone thinks it may happen - Well I think that Virgin are going to give ATW 4 voyagers so they can then have WSMR stock to be able to get near 90% satisfaction - of course this is not the case and unless they employed the WSMR staff they would get no where near that figure As you say this is a forum for disscussion but it is always best for folks to say "in my opinion" or "it could happen" or maybe this will happen" instead of spouting a definate on hear say
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

yes its the radio programme, any questions. We will see if the question raises its head. I know they go for a mix of questions.

Are the questions not vetted before hand? If so I doubt the direct question will not be forwarded, if it is the most probable answer will be "we are looking at all options on how to improve our service for the people of Wales" note the looking and note improvement and of course the "people of Wales" could mean the WAG members of course, so any questions that are put forward are most likely to be politically replied to - The question to be asked would be "as a company (ATW) do you not think that the money that you are donated by the Welsh assembly should not be wasted on a dedicated express train for the WAG members but used to reinforce the ATW stock that is currently used" for instance - ferurb, repaint, air con in the drivers cabs, cleaning etc - this is where the money is needed - not on the WAG, not on the upgrade of single to double line between Wrexham North Junction and Saltney but for their shabby stock that all the passengers are not happy with.

 

[krus_aragon]

I drove for them for 3 years and never did a set go to LNWR or the ETD unless is had a fault and needed maintenance, it always was 2 at Wrexham and one at Wembley

Right-o: thanks.

 

[splitfare]

.....

I am still bugged as to why DB shut down WSMR with only three days notice,its not like there was any opposition between Wrexham and Telford going direct to London.

.....

I too was very disappointed to see WSMR closed down so suddenly. It was a great service and it was great having employees ask to use WSMR (TFC > MYB) in preference to VT - even though the journey time was slightly longer. Every time they reported "fantastic journey" even on days where they arrived in MYB a little late.

However, as an employer it is logical to close the operation as quick as possible. If it was losing money then you have cut out the costs of running the trains. The other reason (and I suspect the primary one) would be the availability of staff. As soon as a decsion to end operations had been made, the company had to consult with the staff. The staff would then be entitled to time off to attend interviews etc which would be very difficult for WSMR to manage with the level of operating staff they had. How could WSMR reasonably retain all the necessary staff until a deferred end date?

I feel gutted for the WSMR staff (primarily those employed on the trains) as it is they who achieved so much for WSMR. I don't know the terms of the contracts they worked under but if it was only the legal minimum in terms of notice/redundancy it is far from sufficient compensation for the contribution they made to the organisation.


Another reason (from the cynic in me) for closing quickly is to create a time gap between the end of WSMR and the launch of WAG2 should that be where the sets end up being used. "Times heals wounds" and the longer the time gap, the less adverse publicity is likely to arise.

 

[headshot119]

The conflict point is Saltney and there will be a single line re-occupation value, probably 2 or 3 minutes without checking.

As far as I know once the track circuits cancels out, Chester can send another train towards Wrexham. The only Requirement for Croess Newydd to send a train along the single line to Chester is for Chester to slot the route.