ATW to take over 3 W/S sets

[merlodlliw]

Sorry about yet another thread, but this just breaking.

I have it from an impeccable source ATW are to take over three W/S sets, so that both WAG Expresses will run via Wrexham

This is the reason for DB pulling the plug on W/S.

The Minister is now being accused of handling this badly by his own party, in fact it seems he is the reason for W/S being folded and getting 55 put out of work in Wrexham for his asperations.

It is also reported the CEO of W/S as saying WSMR victim of "short termism" by DB Regio . He predicted it would have been in profit by Feb 12. Thinks WAG 2 has been handled very poorly by all concerned.

Wag one is worth £1.7M a year
Wag two ...........£3.7M on a 7 year leasing deal.
both out of public funding subsidies

Bob

 

[fairysdad]

Sorry, may I ask that you explain some of the acronyms used? I assumed W/S was Wrexham & Shropshire, but then you use WSMR as well which (and this took me a while to get too) is the same. Also confused about what WAG is. (There may be other innocents here who might not know what ATW and DB are; though DB is actually the name (ish) of the company...)

I will let you off though as it looks as if you typed this on a mobile device (not that it's my place to have a go at you anyway...)

 

[Greenback]

The Waf is the Welsh Assembly Government, the biody responsible for devolved transport issues here in Wales.

WAG1 and WAG2 are the two trains between Hoklyhead and Cardiff that ar epaid for by the WAG. One is currently running with loco and coaches, the other has not started yet.

 

[merlodlliw]

Sorry, may I ask that you explain some of the acronyms used? I assumed W/S was Wrexham & Shropshire, but then you use WSMR as well which (and this took me a while to get too) is the same. Also confused about what WAG is. (There may be other innocents here who might not know what ATW and DB are; though DB is actually the name (ish) of the company...)

I will let you off though as it looks as if you typed this on a mobile device (not that it's my place to have a go at you anyway...)

I agree, it was typed on a mobile as I got the news, I will reset the story, as I could not get back in to correct the errors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry about yet another thread starting,but this just breaking.

I can confirm ATW will take possession of three ex WSMR complete sets.

The sets will be used to run what is called the Wag Expresses between Holyhead and Cardiff,the paths will be via Wrexham in in place of the current Crewe paths.
The trains are first class premier dinning services, and funded by Welsh Assembly Govt.

Current one service runs via Crewe at a cost of £1.7M a year, the second set is to run two hours later from Holyhead and is to receive funding of £3.5M, the routes via Crewe were only a temporary measure and caused political turmoil in North East Wales.

Following discussions with D.B who own Arriva Trains Wales and the Welsh Assembly Govt, the owners DB closed Wrexham/Shropshire/Marylebone Railway Company last Friday, so that the stock can be used on what we call the WAG Expresses. Thus making 55 Wrexham employees redundant.

Current the service is 57/3 loco hauled and can not run via Wrexham for operational reasons and runs via Crewe.

The CEO of WSMR is reported as saying,he predicted the Company would have been in profit by February.

 

[Greenback]

But how much profit would it have made, assuming the prediction turned out ot be correct? Would it have been as much of a return as DB can expect to see by redeploying the stock?

Having said that, I am always gutted to see jobs lost...

 

[Welshman]

If that is true it is nothing short of scandalous that 55 people should be made redundant and everyday fare-paying passengers lose a service from Wrexham/Shrewsbury to London, just to allow WAG politicians get to Cardiff more easily.

 

[Greenback]

I agree it's scandalaous. But in the economic world it makes perfect sense for DB to employ the stock wher eit will make most money. The villains seem to be the politicians and civils ervants, who would appear to have made a complete mess of the introduction of WAG2, if reports are to be believed!

 

[merlodlliw]

If that is true it is nothing short of scandalous that 55 people should be made redundant and everyday fare-paying passengers lose a service from Wrexham/Shrewsbury to London, just to allow WAG politicians get to Cardiff more easily.

I put the thread up today, yesterday it was doing the rounds, we shall see if the Ministers dept gives a denial.

Suppose DB sniff the other £3.5M, as they have screwed WAG out of £1.7M for this year for the current service.

Bob

 

[headshot119]

I'm rather skeptical at this point about this. From what I've heard there aren't any paths south of Wrexham to run the WAG that way anyway?

 

[Oliver]

If that is true it is nothing short of scandalous that 55 people should be made redundant and everyday fare-paying passengers lose a service from Wrexham/Shrewsbury to London, just to allow WAG politicians get to Cardiff more easily.

The WAG Express isn't solely for use by politicians, though it does rely on public funds and have an underlying political purpose. That is not necessarily a bad thing if it secures good loadings.

However, if this story is true it demonstrates that DB would prefer the security of a subsidised service to the possible future profits of an open-access service. That shouldn't come as a great surprise, and hopefully any remaining illusions about DB having a more noble view of the world than other TOCs can be laid to rest.

 

[TheWalrus]

the one down in the morning is near enough empty! most get off at crewe ironically...

 

[Oliver]

the one down in the morning is near enough empty! most get off at crewe ironically...

Well I am actually not surprised to hear that. It would be helpful if anyone could take a count and give us a few facts to mull over.

 

[anthony263]

the current wag does seem to a few passengers on it whenever i see it at newport. Best thing i think would be to stop it at Hereford to get some more passengers

 

[sprinterguy]

It’s a shame that Wrexham and Shropshire have had their trains cherry-picked in this way, but from a commercial viewpoint it makes sense for DB to invest rolling stock in a financially secure franchise rather than an open access operation. From recent developments it seems that Wrexham and Shropshire’s demise was more due to hungry operators eagerly awaiting the redistribution of four rakes of recently refurbished carriages within the DB fold rather than financial failure on their part.

I would have thought it made more sense for WAG 2 to run in the opposite direction to WAG 1, rather than shadowing two hours behind the existing service. Surely with a spare train now part of the operation, the opportunity could be taken from May for the two WAG trains to work a return fill-in working in the middle of the day and free up 175s to provide capacity elsewhere. The fact that this isn’t going to happen only goes to show that these trains are a political statement rather than a well planned addition to rail services.

By the way, what is the First Class offering like on the WAG Express?

 

[anthony263]

I always thought the plans for a WAG 2 was to have a train say leave cardiff at something like 04:15 or 06:15 and return from holyhead in the early evening. This would have been great for some of us to get a trip to North wales on a loco hauled set and be able to spend a day up there without the need for a overnight stop.

If the 2nd wag is run by loco hauled stock and the stock is used to work the service from Swansea rather than transfering passengers from a DMU to the loco hauled stock at Cardiff how long has it been since there was a regular loco hauled service operating from Swansea?

The last i think was the Intercity/Virgin Swansea - York services which used class 47's

 

[tbtc]

the one down in the morning is near enough empty! most get off at crewe ironically...

...which means a lot of existing passengers are going to be inconvenienced for the sake of a political move

Still, as WAG2 means more services and more jobs, this means that the number of (net) job losses won't be as many as 55. It also means more loco hauled trains for enthusiasts.

I'm slightly confused by the idea that ATW need an additional three rakes of coaches/locos to run one additional train a day (since there is a set for the exisiting service)...

I agree with anthony263 about the need to stop at Hereford (which is the local train station for some people in Wales, as well as a big town and a junction).

 

[sprinterguy]

...which means a lot of existing passengers are going to be inconvenienced for the sake of a political move

Still, as WAG2 means more services and more jobs, this means that the number of (net) job losses won't be as many as 55. It also means more loco hauled trains for enthusiasts.

I'm slightly confused by the idea that ATW need an additional three rakes of coaches/locos to run one additional train a day (since there is a set for the exisiting service)...

I agree with anthony263 about the need to stop at Hereford (which is the local train station for some people in Wales, as well as a big town and a junction).

The Class 57s and assorted mrk 2 + mrk 3 rakes are being replaced by the Wrexham and Shropshire 67s and W&S Mk. 3 rakes from May, as the 57s have reliability issues aplenty and the W&S rakes have push-pull capability, negating the need to run round. Three trains; two in service and one spare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I always thought the plans for a WAG 2 was to have a train say leave cardiff at something like 04:15 or 06:15 and return from holyhead in the early evening. This would have been great for some of us to get a trip to North wales on a loco hauled set and be able to spend a day up there without the need for a overnight stop.

Agreed, it would make a lot more sense; the same idea as in my post.

 

[tbtc]

The Class 57s and assorted mrk 2 + mrk 3 rakes are being replaced by the Wrexham and Shropshire 67s and W&S Mk. 3 rakes from May, as the 57s have reliability issues aplenty and the W&S rakes have push-pull capability, negating the need to run round. Three trains; two in service and one spare

Cheers. So that frees up a rate of mk2/mk3 coaches and a 57 which *could* be used somewhere else? (reliability permitting)

 

[anthony263]

Pity ATW wouldnt bring back loco hauled trains on the rhymney services again. Anyway since ATW have some stock why not get some services running between Cardiff - west wales via the swansea district line.

Maybe ATW should get more use out of the loco hauled stock to allow dmus to be dsiplaced to boost capacity elsewhere on the ATW network or to improve current services such as extending the Ebbw Vale services through to Maesteg and thus elimate the current 40-50 minutes the stock spends just sitting around in cardiff central

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm rather skeptical at this point about this. From what I've heard there aren't any paths south of Wrexham to run the WAG that way anyway?

There wasn't - the train in the way was the W+S service killing two birds with one stone some may say?

 

[krus_aragon]

Cheers. So that frees up a rate of mk2/mk3 coaches and a 57 which *could* be used somewhere else? (reliability permitting)

The Mk3 First Class/Buffet was hired in, whereas the Mk2s were owned by Arriva, as I understand.

With so many rakes about I'd expect the daytime run to Fishguard Harbour would be an obvious job for one of these.

Switching to Mk3 carriages throughout should lead to speed increases, as I think there were speed restrictions associated with a short rake of Mk2s down the Marches.

As for going via Wrexham, the only explanation I can think of for why this is possible is that removing WSMR's ECS path from Crewe to Wrexham gives the Gerallt Gymro the slot needed to get through and still arrive at Cardiff before 10am (which was the original reason given for going via Crewe). There could well be a slot languishing about that will allow a 12pm arrival via Wrexham.

If the rakes are indeed reallocated to ATW, without going via Wrexham, well I can just imagie the uproar from that neck of the woods...

 

[sprinterguy]

Cheers. So that frees up a rate of mk2/mk3 coaches and a 57 which *could* be used somewhere else? (reliability permitting)

ATW would have the ability to form up three 4-carriage mk. 2 rakes once the WAG service gets W&S stock (including the mark 2s they have in store), and as ATW own all their mark 2s as krus aragon rightly says, there would be no hiring in/leasing costs to be considered, just track access charges. Of course there are limitations on the suitability of loco hauled trains operating former DMU workings, such as the time penalty at station stops associated with slam door stock and the limited availability of run-round facilities in some areas of the network, but overall it seems like a heck of a good idea: ATW could even hire 57313-57316 from Virgin on a more permanent basis than at present.

I agree with everything krus aragon has said above.

 

[merlodlliw]

There is a Ghost path for the return of the down Wag Mark two,it shows from Cardiff via
Wrexham to Holyhead. This path as been discussed on RF, its in the May 2011 ATW advance timetable.

Ill try & find it.

Here it is. Train number 1W94

ex
CDF 1821
WRX 2042
HDD 2240 arrive

taken from
Cardiff Central to Crewe,
Chester, Manchester Piccadilly
and Holyhead (Consultation Timetable)
Pocket Timetable 2 Monday to Fridays Table 131 23/05/11 to 09/12/11

No sign of the Up service

 

[anthony263]

There is a Ghost path for the return of the down Wag Mark two,it shows from Cardiff via
Wrexham to Holyhead. This path as been discussed on RF, its in the May 2011 ATW advance timetable.

Ill try & find it.

Here it is. Train number 1W94

ex
CDF 1821
WRX 2042
HDD 2240 arrive

taken from
Cardiff Central to Crewe,
Chester, Manchester Piccadilly
and Holyhead (Consultation Timetable)
Pocket Timetable 2 Monday to Fridays Table 131 23/05/11 to 09/12/11

No sign of the Up service

Also seems that it starts from Swansea at 17:10 as for it coming from Holyhead i think it was supposed to be timed from Holyhead at 07:50 in cardiff at 12:24

 

[The Planner]

The 67 sets will give them a better run than the 57s too as they can take full advantage of the linespeeds as the 57s and MKIIs are restricted via the rule book.

 

[merlodlliw]

Also seems that it starts from Swansea at 17:10 as for it coming from Holyhead i think it was supposed to be timed from Holyhead at 07:50 in cardiff at 12:24

Its all up in the air now Anthony,would seem silly to have the WAGs parked up at Cardiff for six hours as occurs now,BTW have another look at 1W94, its now showing from CDF, the Swansea start as been dropped,but I think Swansea was an error anyhow.

 

[Skip 10]

Maybe if this is true the WAG would be far better spending the money finding jobs for the 55 people that pay the taxes for them to spend on an empty train.....

 

[merlodlliw]

Maybe if this is true the WAG would be far better spending the money finding jobs for the 55 people that pay the taxes for them to spend on an empty train.....

Hello Skip ATW have just put this out to a press request. Its from their press office, but WAG have not denied it yet.,


Thanks for your emails. I can confirm that Arriva Trains Wales will not be taking over the three W/S sets that you refer to.
I would suggest that you contact DB for further comment if required.
Kind regards

 

[the-gog]

Hello Skip ATW have just put this out to a press request. Its from their press office, but WAG have not denied it yet.,


Thanks for your emails. I can confirm that Arriva Trains Wales will not be taking over the three W/S sets that you refer to.
I would suggest that you contact DB for further comment if required.
Kind regards

Merlodlliw, what was your source for this info, and do you know if they still stand by it if ATW are denying it? We do need this sort of info to be accurate, as you can appreciate.

('Dwi dal yn flin am beth digwyddodd i WSMR.)

 

[Skip 10]

('Dwi dal yn flin am beth digwyddodd i WSMR.)

I 2nd that!!