ATW Strike info (thread not for staff bashing)

[The175]

This entire business seems to have gone strangely quiet all of a sudden. Goings on behind the scenes, do we think?

 

[anthony263]

This entire business seems to have gone strangely quiet all of a sudden. Goings on behind the scenes, do we think?

There are talks going on behind the scenes. rumours that ATW have made a better pay deal according to one member of staff i know. best to wait and see is my opinion

 

[seagull]

Yes there is a, umm, 'better' pay deal on the table...

Instead of the previous hotch potch of strings and conditions plus Time+1/4 for Sunday working, now it apparently is... wait for it....

Time+1/3 for Sunday working, and;
One guaranteed Sunday off per year per driver and on an allocation basis which amounts to 1 driver per Sunday for most depots. So you can imagine the bunfight in June/July/August to try and get the guaranteed Sunday off with 10+ drivers all applying for the 1 Sunday and only the first getting it...

Yes it seems to be a very slight improvement but the surprise is that this was enough to persuade ASLEF to call off ALL action including the work to rule. One can almost imagine behind the scenes dealings of a shady nature taking place - certainly something doesn't quite add up. Even more surprising is that despite a previous referendum very clearly conveying the message that committed Sundays are not wanted, even if it costs a chunk of the purported pay rise, another referendum is now being called.

No doubt the ATW guards will be watching very closely now to see what transpires, as the guards are being given more or less the same strings attached.

 

[TDK]

Yes there is a, umm, 'better' pay deal on the table...

Instead of the previous hotch potch of strings and conditions plus Time+1/4 for Sunday working, now it apparently is... wait for it....

Time+1/3 for Sunday working, and;
One guaranteed Sunday off per year per driver and on an allocation basis which amounts to 1 driver per Sunday for most depots. So you can imagine the bunfight in June/July/August to try and get the guaranteed Sunday off with 10+ drivers all applying for the 1 Sunday and only the first getting it...

Yes it seems to be a very slight improvement but the surprise is that this was enough to persuade ASLEF to call off ALL action including the work to rule. One can almost imagine behind the scenes dealings of a shady nature taking place - certainly something doesn't quite add up. Even more surprising is that despite a previous referendum very clearly conveying the message that committed Sundays are not wanted, even if it costs a chunk of the purported pay rise, another referendum is now being called.

No doubt the ATW guards will be watching very closely now to see what transpires, as the guards are being given more or less the same strings attached.

The drivers and ASLEF will not accept any deal making Sundays commited, if they do then shame on them.

 

[merlodlliw]

This entire business seems to have gone strangely quiet all of a sudden. Goings on behind the scenes, do we think?

of course there are, every TU does this, its all part of the ritual & always will be,if both sides are talking together it is far better than strife, and most paramount the passengers can travel,you have to trust your full time officials which you have elected.

just my opinion of course.


Bob

 

[1V53]

I am reminded of Captain Speaking on the previous thread saying "what part of 'there is no more money' do you not understand?" Time and a quarter has now increased to time and a third.... Obviously there was and is more money then! I don't know why profitable companies spout the "there is no more money" bull. It just makes the workforce more angry and determined to get their cut.

 

[rodders133]

The whole thing is a farce. ASLEF should be investigated. This whole thing is corrupt. Aslef are going to lose a lot of drivers here. The improved offer is a joke. How aslef had the audacity to call off action is beyond me.
ASLEF would happily take this deal, and they have recommended it.
Now it has to go to another referendum, if it is a no vote, then there will have to be another ballot to vote for strike action on that deal, as the other ballot has expired.
I do not trust Aslef at all, and apparantly, one of the top fellas at Aslef, plays golf with the top fella at ATW. You couldnt make it up.

Lets get something clear here. If Aslef had stood strong leading up to the rugby strike, then this paydeal would be sorted. There is no way on earth ATW would have let that strike go ahead, and so to avert it they wouldve had to make an offer that did not include the Sunday commitment, and aslef couldve accepted it over the table.....job done.
Aslef must have known this so why didnt they do it. If anyone high up in Aslef reads this I would love you to comment please. Dont interrupt your all expenses paid, round the world cruise... it can wait.

Now everyone is back to square 1, with more threats of strikes looming

 

[seagull]

I should jolly well hope it would be a 'no' to referendum - the simple fact is that ATW aren't willing to pay anywhere even close to the 'going rate' for buying a gold-plated condition from the train crews - if it is given up for just the miserly figure bandied around then I predict that in a few years time there'll be some real 'if only we hadn't' sentiments floating around.
Voluntary Sundays is a very powerful condition to have - and let's face it, under normal circumstances it works 100% well, trains are virtually never cancelled on a Sunday currently.

If it goes through I think the RMT/ATCU membership figures will rise dramatically.

 

[O L Leigh]

I have always felt that the mistake in situations like this is to abandon one union to go and join another, particularly one that may not yet be officially recognised by your employer or have any negotiating abilities. What disgruntled members should be doing is button-holing their local reps and loudly protesting about the conduct and (possible) outcome of the negotiations.

If anything, defections to other unions is likely to be just what your employer might be hoping for because it weakens your position. I've heard about some of the backroom tactics that the TOC's use when negotiating with the unions in an attempt to split their solidarity. They'll take the reps from one union aside, talk about nothing much and then contact all the others and say that an agreement has been reached with this union already. All it does is create confusion and delay in the negotiation process and fosters mistrust between the various staff-side representatives.

If you are dissatisfied with ASLEF you won't be able to do a damn thing about it from the outside. But if you want a strong driver's union then you need to make your voice heard. I've been in one dispute already and even before and after the dispute people were moaning about ASLEF in the messrooms and on platforms. But do they express their concerns when the rep walks in...? Nope. Heck, we've even got an ASLEF Executive Committee member at our depot...!! Do they tell him?

I'll leave you to ponder the answer to that one.

And incidentally, what I say above applies equally to all unions. If you're not happy with the representation you're getting then you need to be telling someone. Just moaning about it and expressing your dissatisfaction by joining a different union won't address any of the issues.

O L Leigh

 

[seagull]

I have always felt that the mistake in situations like this is to abandon one union to go and join another, particularly one that may not yet be officially recognised by your employer or have any negotiating abilities.

I personally agree with that fully - though I've heard the view expressed along the lines of "may as well pay less per month and still be in a useless union" etc. etc. Fact remains that there's only one that's dedicated just to drivers, and indeed, a union is only as good as its membership and *elected* officials.

But do they express their concerns when the rep walks in...? Nope. Heck, we've even got an ASLEF Executive Committee member at our depot...!! Do they tell him?

I'm betting the answer to that one is firmly in the negative. And I can also bet that most of the biggest complainers don't turn up to branch meetings?

 

[O L Leigh]

You, sir, are spot on.

O L Leigh

 

[rodders133]

Actually, our reps get it in the neck. What is even more surprising is the fact that a few months ago, we had a union/staff meeting. All the aslef bigwigs came down and listened to the feeling of the drivers. It was made extremely clear to them that drivers did not want commited Sundays, and I mean extremely clear. To the point that at times in the meeting, I wouldnt have swapped places with them at any cost. It got to the stage where the meeting was almost cancelled because of the unrest in the room.
It was actually pointed out that, a couple of years ago, Aslefs top dog, who was at the meeting had said "Voluntary Sundays are your crown jewels, dont give them up at any cost". How the tide has turned.
There is a fight going on here, and most people would see that the fight would be between staff vs employees, or staff and union vs employees.
It has got to the stage where the drivers biggest enemy, and threat, is their own union. No one can really blame ATW. They are a business, they have to try and get what they can, like you or I or anyone would do. Thats just how it is. But how a union who are supposed to be representing their members feelings can carry on like this is beyond me.
The trouble is, a lot of the drivers feel trapped by aslef. Some depots would be maybe 95% aslef, 5% RMT, so the 5% would not be enough members to warrant a depot rep, which is a big deal to most people.
For the people who say RMT are no better, that may be the case, but I have yet to see actions by the RMT that make me believe there was corruption afoot.
People pay into aslef as an insurance policy, on the off chance they make a big mistake and need someone to bail them out.

 

[BestWestern]

This is all very interesting, as it echoes to some extent the happenings at FGW over the past couple of years. FGW Drivers agreed to commited sunday working, along with some other conditions, in return for a very substantial pay deal - substantial as in a headline figure of approaching 20% - but the when the same proposal was put to the Guards as part of their Harmonisation deal the RMT made it absolutely clear that they would never agree to this condition on principle. No members' ballot, the matter was simply not up for discussion. So presumably the stance of ASLEF is not quite so determined on this issue? The RMT took the view that sunday working is potentially the biggest bargaining tool at their disposal should such a tool be required, and as such it will not be surrendered in any pay deal. Typically militant RMT-ism, but a fair point if you see things that way. I would be expecting the same to be repeated with ATW Guards when the talks come round.

 

[TDK]

Actually, our reps get it in the neck. What is even more surprising is the fact that a few months ago, we had a union/staff meeting. All the aslef bigwigs came down and listened to the feeling of the drivers. It was made extremely clear to them that drivers did not want commited Sundays, and I mean extremely clear. To the point that at times in the meeting, I wouldnt have swapped places with them at any cost. It got to the stage where the meeting was almost cancelled because of the unrest in the room.
It was actually pointed out that, a couple of years ago, Aslefs top dog, who was at the meeting had said "Voluntary Sundays are your crown jewels, dont give them up at any cost". How the tide has turned.
There is a fight going on here, and most people would see that the fight would be between staff vs employees, or staff and union vs employees.
It has got to the stage where the drivers biggest enemy, and threat, is their own union. No one can really blame ATW. They are a business, they have to try and get what they can, like you or I or anyone would do. Thats just how it is. But how a union who are supposed to be representing their members feelings can carry on like this is beyond me.
The trouble is, a lot of the drivers feel trapped by aslef. Some depots would be maybe 95% aslef, 5% RMT, so the 5% would not be enough members to warrant a depot rep, which is a big deal to most people.
For the people who say RMT are no better, that may be the case, but I have yet to see actions by the RMT that make me believe there was corruption afoot.
People pay into aslef as an insurance policy, on the off chance they make a big mistake and need someone to bail them out.

This is a valid point but on the defence of ASLEF the ATW drivers first asked for Parity with other DB TOCs like XC and ASLEF tried to bump up the ATW drivers salary and did quite well however the ATW drivers then preverbially spat in the face of ASLEF as XC conditions didn't suit them with Sundays in so they then changed their pleas after ASLEF had done all the work. This is the root cause of ATW management holding tight to the Sunday issue. This was a mistake on behalf of the drivers or their advisors at the time and it has come back to haunt both the drivers and ATW managment.

If parity and XC was not mentioned the issue would have been solved with a wage increase, a good one at that and Sundays left as they are, so asking ASLEF to try and get parity and then later saying we are not having the conditions is a catch 22.

 

[Pacerpilot]

but its still nowhere near parity with XC. Its nearly a £10k difference and given that XC's next pay anniversary is this May, that difference is set to increase further. An RPI sized increase for XC will see them exceed the £50k mark.

 

[tirphil]

This is a valid point but on the defence of ASLEF the ATW drivers first asked for Parity with other DB TOCs like XC and ASLEF tried to bump up the ATW drivers salary and did quite well however the ATW drivers then preverbially spat in the face of ASLEF as XC conditions didn't suit them with Sundays in so they then changed their pleas after ASLEF had done all the work. This is the root cause of ATW management holding tight to the Sunday issue. This was a mistake on behalf of the drivers or their advisors at the time and it has come back to haunt both the drivers and ATW managment.

If parity and XC was not mentioned the issue would have been solved with a wage increase, a good one at that and Sundays left as they are, so asking ASLEF to try and get parity and then later saying we are not having the conditions is a catch 22.

Indeed you are correct in your observation. Many of the drivers at the depot I work at started this dispute saying it was all about equality of pay. Now the same drivers say its all about the sundays!!! And as someone else has mentioned, those complaining are rarely present at branch meetings.

 

[Flamingo]

This is all very interesting, as it echoes to some extent the happenings at FGW over the past couple of years. FGW Drivers agreed to commited sunday working, along with some other conditions, in return for a very substantial pay deal - substantial as in a headline figure of approaching 20% - but the when the same proposal was put to the Guards as part of their Harmonisation deal the RMT made it absolutely clear that they would never agree to this condition on principle. No members' ballot, the matter was simply not up for discussion. So presumably the stance of ASLEF is not quite so determined on this issue? The RMT took the view that sunday working is potentially the biggest bargaining tool at their disposal should such a tool be required, and as such it will not be surrendered in any pay deal. Typically militant RMT-ism, but a fair point if you see things that way. I would be expecting the same to be repeated with ATW Guards when the talks come round.

RMT didn't put it to members ballot as they were afraid that with a big enough pay deal, they guards would accept it. Which would decrease the clout that RMT would have as an organisation.

However, the deal that the RMT pushed on the guards had some serious holes in it for the staff, and a minimal pay rise for some serious concessions by staff. But we kept being told "It's the best we could do, accept it" by Divisional Council.

 

[1V53]

And the Guards Company Council secretary thinks it's a good offer.... The CC Sec who is a Valleys Guard... Remind me how many Sundays they work again? Oh yeah, 1 in 8!

 

[airwolf21]

Yeah the CC sec who hardly ever works a train, has a nice office on the 4th floor and who has barbecues with the land of leather management....

I liked the union meeting we had the other week, adjourned after 15 mins as they didnt know how long they had the room booked for! No info or memos posted in ages on what is happenening!

 

[1V53]

Update...

Drivers settled some weeks ago. Guards referendum rejected the offer but company council have now negotiated a slight improvement which is awaiting RMT scrutiny and a ballot.

 

[Flamingo]

And peace descended on the earth as everyone went back to loving each other again...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

And peace descended on the earth as everyone went back to loving each other again...

The Guards result should be interesting as us lowly guards are way down the pecking order no matter which TOC we belong to

 

[Flamingo]

Tell me about it...

 

[spacehopper]

Tell me about it...

Stakeholders! (free days out, cruises and hospitality)

 

[merlodlliw]

Stakeholders! (free days out, cruises and hospitality)

You have lost me with that quote,


Bob

 

[1V53]

The Guards result should be interesting as us lowly guards are way down the pecking order no matter which TOC we belong to

It will be accept. Despite overwhelming disgust at six branch meetings around the country, there was a referendum recently (no worry about committing to strike at that point, just a gathering of opinion) over a third voted to accept. Common 'reasons' are they want the back pay and fed up of how long it's been.

So the company can put out an offer loaded with strings, the staff are up in arms, but the company string it along for months (it dates back to July 2010) and eventually people forget their principles on committed Sundays for greed or inertia.

Cue acceptance then moaning about the Sundays then slagging off the union! So predictable.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

All the pensioners in our area flock to buy the Club 55 tickets offered by ATW. The latest offer ran from January to April this year, but on certain days, this offer was unable to be used by them, as strike action came into play.

"Grey Power" was felt amongst the ranks of the disaffected. Unanimity of support with the rail staff involved vanished overnight.

 

[1V53]

All the pensioners in our area flock to buy the Club 55 tickets offered by ATW. The latest offer ran from January to April this year, but on certain days, this offer was unable to be used by them, as strike action came into play.

"Grey Power" was felt amongst the ranks of the disaffected. Unanimity of support with the rail staff involved vanished overnight.

Tbh in today's climate you don't expect to foster the support of the public, nor is it particularly relevant. Most people are too selfish to consider anything except 'how does this affect ME' anyway so it's not worth wasting time trying to get a mostly self centred public onside anyway. You just fight the battles you feel you need to fight and any public support is merely a bonus.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Tbh in today's climate you don't expect to foster the support of the public, nor is it particularly relevant. Most people are too selfish to consider anything except 'how does this affect ME' anyway so it's not worth wasting time trying to get a mostly self centred public onside anyway. You just fight the battles you feel you need to fight and any public support is merely a bonus.

You talk about "a mostly self centred public" in your reply....but don't ALL of us come into that category, one way or another. We are all human with human frailties and normal feelings. This was the basis for the 60's film "I'm all right, Jack" and the recent film "Wall Street"...two sides of the same coin.

I have always sought to influence people into using rail travel, rather than cars, as what I feel is this is a common-sense attitude with the health of millions at risk from carbon emissions. This is why you will find elderly people like me and others with the same reasoning using the Club 55 offers when available. Lots of travel by train....much less by car. Incidentally, the FIRST group did not offer their Club 55 offer this spring, as they did last autumn.

 

[Flamingo]

Incidentally, the FIRST group did not offer their Club 55 offer this spring, as they did last autumn.

They didn't need to, the Club 55 offer was just to put bums on seats in an otherwise quiet time. Some trains, there were so many Club 55 that the ordinary passengers couldn't get seats.

A large number of business-people were using Club 55 tickets as well. Not everybody over 55 is an improvised pensioner, and I don't think that the idea of introducing the offer was for that particular group.