ATW Strike info (thread not for staff bashing)

[1V53]

Talks have broken down again today. Sundays overtime ban continues. ATW are providing limited coaches, one wonders who is funding these?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...-go-ahead-as-talks-break-down-91466-28274787/

 

[ainsworth74]

You know there are times when it comes to disputes (not just industrial) that I would quite like to just get the top people from both sides stick them in a room with a table, chairs, a pen and some paper then lock them in there and tell them they're not coming out till they have an agreement on paper that both sides can agree with!

 

[merlodlliw]

With all Due Respect, I will take note of the moderators on what I can put up,what is your problem IV53
when there are already threads open on this,Rail uk Forums is open to all,including those who disagree.

Who do you think is paying for the buses, ATW course for the long suffering passengers caught up in all of this.


Bob

 

[Sir Topham Hat]

With all Due Respect, I will take note of the moderators,what is your problem
when there is already threads open on this,Rail uk Forums is open to all,including those who disagree.

Who do you expect is paying for the buses, ATW for the long suffering passengers caught up in all of this.


Bob

I think 1V53 means the WAG are footing the bill NOT ATW...

 

[Pacerpilot]

With all Due Respect, I will take note of he moderators on what I can put up,what is your problem IV53
when there are already threads open on this,Rail uk Forums is open to all,including those who disagree.

The main thread was actually locked....

 

[merlodlliw]

I think 1V53 means the WAG are footing the bill NOT ATW...

Welcome to rail forums Sir Top Hat, I am sure we have met at Ascot



Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The main thread was actually locked....

OK, I was not aware, but I still think the thread header is asking for hassle on an open forum.
Anyhow the comment from the zoo is put a little less inflammatory this time

Peter Leppard, Operations and Safety Director for Arriva Trains Wales, said: “We have done everything we can to bring this situation to a resolution and our 12% pay offer over two years still stands.

“We are sorry for the obvious inconvenience this will cause to passengers but continue to urge Aslef to suspend their action and accept this generous pay offer. Communication channels will remain open should Aslef wish to return to discussions.”


Bob

 

[Legzr1]

You know there are times when it comes to disputes (not just industrial) that I would quite like to just get the top people from both sides stick them in a room with a table, chairs, a pen and some paper then lock them in there and tell them they're not coming out till they have an agreement on paper that both sides can agree with!

Like voting in a new Pope?




I agree with your sentiments though.

 

[nedchester]

Got an advance Chester to London for the 0840 dep from Chester.

Looks like I'll have to drive to Crewe for my pendo. Wonder whether I can get a refund for the Chester to Crewe bit?

 

[1V53]

Bob, the original thread was closed and a member banned because of slaggng off of unions and staff then it got personal. It went around and around and just got silly. The moderators shouldn't have to intervene if everyone behaves. I put that in the title a. To assure the mods this was not merely intended to be a continuation, and b. To discourage the 'poke the staff' posters from trying to provoke reactions again. The thread is simply to keep people informed and up to date, hopefully without the 'staff are being greedy/no they aren't merry go round. I trust this explains the situation.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

This is what should happen, management give a bit, staff give abit...everyone happy

This is what will happen

ATW will continue doing a British Airways amd refuse to back down, making silly comparisons in the press, lowering moralle further

ATW staff will get more fed up then more militant

The press then blame ATW staff for everything under the sun

and the vicious circle continues.

 

[1V53]

I think after a few weeks most the public will just be looking to the company to 'sort it out'. At first the staff usually get most of the flack but as time goes on (especially if ATW continue to bang the same old drum) the public just get exasperated and expect the company to manage the situation and sort it out. We shall see.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I think after a few weeks most the public will just be looking to the company to 'sort it out'. At first the staff usually get most of the flack but as time goes on (especially if ATW continue to bang the same old drum) the public just get exasperated and expect the company to manage the situation and sort it out. We shall see.

if only...look how long the BA strike has been going, more twists and turns than a rollercoaster lol

 

[tbtc]

Bob, the original thread was closed and a member banned because of slaggng off of unions and staff then it got personal. It went around and around and just got silly. The moderators shouldn't have to intervene if everyone behaves. I put that in the title a. To assure the mods this was not merely intended to be a continuation, and b. To discourage the 'poke the staff' posters from trying to provoke reactions again. The thread is simply to keep people informed and up to date, hopefully without the 'staff are being greedy/no they aren't merry go round. I trust this explains the situation.

I hope that this thread can stay open and we can discuss the actual affects of the strike etc. I was heartened to see that the "how do you solve a problem like sundays" thread avoided descending into "predictable" territory, so I have high hopes of this one too

 

[Gareth Marston]

Still ATW could take the whole offer off the table and spend the £2 million plus on something else. Leasing more trains or recruiting more staff. To put the offer in perspective the sum is equivalent to leasing every year another eight Class 158's or recruiting 100 extra Platform staff.

ATW spend in excess of £30 million per annum on Drivers salary's alone on a income of £225 million.

 

[1V53]

Still ATW could take the whole offer off the table and spend the £2 million plus on something else. Leasing more trains or recruiting more staff. To put the offer in perspective the sum is equivalent to leasing every year another eight Class 158's or recruiting 100 extra Platform staff.

ATW spend in excess of £30 million per annum on Drivers salary's alone on a income of £225 million.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? I could say "they could reduce train capacity and increase the offer" but that would be just as meaningless really because you can't run a service without drivers or units, and withdrawing the offer and spending the money elsewhere isn't going to solve the dispute!

 

[RobShipway]

Okay, the unions are getting a 12% pay off!! This is where I like to get both parties in a room and bang their heads together for their stupidity because in these times of recession which is what we are currently within, there i sn ot any accept maybe the banks that would have any offer above 4 - 5% if they are lucky over the next three years as a pay increase. The company I work for is only giving 0.5% pay increase for those that qualify.

I presume that ATW will get the money for the 12%, but increasing the fares for the customers in the next 3 - 4 years at about 7% a year then?

 

[1V53]

I fear we are getting back into old territory but just to point out the sticking point is not the amount of the rise (don't believe the media or ATW on that). The problem is the pay rise is conditional on selling conditions, including commitment to work Sundays. Many drivers want a lower rise and the committed Sundays taken out. Basically ATW want to buy conditions that the drivers don't want to sell, for what they deem a small amount. ATW are making big noise about this 12% figure without pointing out the details.

If I can put this into context, if you were offered 12% you'd think that was good. But if the terms were you worked Sats and Suns and go on a 24 hour shift system , when your job was Mon to Fri 9-5, you might not think it was so good? That's just a graphic example, obviously drivers work 24 hour 6 day week roster anyway.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? I could say "they could reduce train capacity and increase the offer" but that would be just as meaningless really because you can't run a service without drivers or units, and withdrawing the offer and spending the money elsewhere isn't going to solve the dispute!

Merely pointing out that the pay deal is not "consequence free" theirs an opportunity cost to it I just plucked 2 examples from the air.

We had a visitor from Glasgow coming to a conference in our building on Tuesday she bought her ticket online and coming down Monday afternoon/evening but did not find she could not get to Newtown until she was in Wolverhampton where she stayed the night. The hotel in Newtown lost out and one she stayed in Wolves benefited. She was not too impressed esp as her ticket was checked about 3 times en route!

 

[RobShipway]

I fear we are getting back into old territory but just to point out the sticking point is not the amount of the rise (don't believe the media or ATW on that). The problem is the pay rise is conditional on selling conditions, including commitment to work Sundays. Many drivers want a lower rise and the committed Sundays taken out. Basically ATW want to buy conditions that the drivers don't want to sell, for what they deem a small amount. ATW are making big noise about this 12% figure without pointing out the details.

If I can put this into context, if you were offered 12% you'd think that was good. But if the terms were you worked Sats and Suns and go on a 24 hour shift system , when your job was Mon to Fri 9-5, you might not think it was so good? That's just a graphic example, obviously drivers work 24 hour 6 day week roster anyway.

Having worked years ago as a Computer Operator doing 12 hour shifts 4 days on 3 days off, 3 nights on, 4 days off with 8% shift allowance in that respect IV53 after reading the details you provided above, I can see the unions point.

However, someone has got to provide the services on Saturdays & Sundays for the passengers unfortunately, whch should be shared out equally amongst the drivers. Depending on the number of drivers required, would they accept having to do one weekend every two months?

If see from the example I have given above, you will see that I was having to work at lest 2 weekends in the month which is what I presume the ATW drivers are having to do now?

 

[1V53]

They currently work approx 2 of 3 Saturdays. Sundays are rostered overtime. Approx 1 in 3 in the North, 1 in 4 to 1 in 8 in the South of Wales. Some don't work any Sundays currently.

Its about choice. Currently drivers can give notice not to work them, but this has been "abused" if that's the right word, by mass chucking in to make a point (before the strike ballot). So not ideal for the company, granted. The problem is they are now trying to force it in by making it a condition of the pay rise. It will remove the current choice to work overtime by making it compulsory.

 

[CNX]

Lets also remember one other factor.

If it wasn't for the industrial relations legislation introduced by the 1979-1997 Conservative government, there would probaly be few if any trains in Wales at all on the strike days, as ATW's ASLEF members would have been free to picket Virgin and FGW depots who's drivers also work over their routes. Fortunately, secondary picketing and sympathy stike action is now illegal.

 

[1V53]

Lets also remember one other factor.

If it wasn't for the industrial relations legislation introduced by the 1979-1997 Conservative government, there would probaly be few if any trains in Wales at all on the strike days, as ATW's ASLEF members would have been free to picket Virgin and FGW depots who's drivers also work over their routes. Fortunately, secondary picketing and sympathy stike action is now illegal.

ATW RMT drivers are quite prevalent on the valleys. They haven't yet been re-balloted yet all refused to cross the picket lines on Monday.

 

[merlodlliw]

Bob, the original thread was closed and a member banned because of slaggng off of unions and staff then it got personal. It went around and around and just got silly. The moderators shouldn't have to intervene if everyone behaves. I put that in the title a. To assure the mods this was not merely intended to be a continuation, and b. To discourage the 'poke the staff' posters from trying to provoke reactions again. The thread is simply to keep people informed and up to date, hopefully without the 'staff are being greedy/no they aren't merry go round. I trust this explains the situation.

OK IV53, I was aware of some silliness on the previous thread, & I was not aware of the ban,I also now have an understanding why you put the title up.

Anyhow to the point, I have been involved in industrial relations as a FOC of a print union,in all my time as a FOC pay offers have had strings,nothing is for nothing, a few years ago everyone with a card was queued up to work Saturday nights/Sunday mornings. I am on this site with an interest in the passenger, who is getting clobbered, Sunday working is part and has always been part of the railways, the sooner this is sorted the better, for the passengers sake,


Bob

 

[CNX]

1V53. Point taken, I was simply making the one regarding trying to enlist the support of drivers from other TOC's by picketing their depots. ATW drivers picketing their own SOP's and asking RMT or non union drivers to support them is legal.

 

[Greenback]

Does anyone have any opinion on the rail replacement buses that are running on Sunday?

 

[TDK]

Does anyone have any opinion on the rail replacement buses that are running on Sunday?

Yes, I think that ATW should put on the busses, it will not cost them that much in comparison to what the comapany saves by not running the trains. ATW hace certain agreements with local councils regarding the number of trains they run and are paid subsudies for these trains so should provide a service of some sorts.

 

[Greenback]

I've had a loojk at the Carmarthen and Swansea replacement buses and it doesn't look like there are veyr many of them. There are a couple of HST's in the afternoon as well though!

 

[TDK]

Still ATW could take the whole offer off the table and spend the £2 million plus on something else. Leasing more trains or recruiting more staff. To put the offer in perspective the sum is equivalent to leasing every year another eight Class 158's or recruiting 100 extra Platform staff.

ATW spend in excess of £30 million per annum on Drivers salary's alone on a income of £225 million.

Yes agreed but if ATW agreed to keep the Sundays as they are the drivers will accept a lower pay offer so there for releasing some money for what you suggest, however ATW are not seeming to budge on this Sundays issue so there fore there is a strike as both parties have failed to agree on any deals. ATW needs now I would imagine to offer ASLE&F RPI plus 1% backdated to when the pay deal was due and leave the Sunday issue and see what happens, if ASLE&F or the drivers dissagree it will be a lot clearer to the public who is at fault with the strikes and overtime bans.

 

[merlodlliw]

Yes, I think that ATW should put on the busses, it will not cost them that much in comparison to what the comapany saves by not running the trains. ATW hace certain agreements with local councils regarding the number of trains they run and are paid subsudies for these trains so should provide a service of some sorts.

I know my Council at Wrexham,after I brought to their attention, have written to ATW to ask why coaches did not replace the trains it pays for last week on the Borderlands line. I am sure there will be coaches this Sunday, and I hope Wrexham, Council asked for its money back for last week.


Bob

 

[1V53]

ATW are not running buses on the Bidston line Bob.

As for something not being for nothing, well the problem is that this has been the view of people in this country for years which is why so many employees have poor conditions now, having fought to get them years before!! I've no idea why people think you have to sell conditions just to get an inflationary or sub inflationary pay rise, especially why when their employer is profitable? I'm asking this as a general question, not just re the railways. There seem to be a few on here with that point of view, and I'm curious as to why. People have fought for years to get conditions and rights and now people are openly advocating that they should be given away just to get a pay "rise" to keep track of inflation! It baffles me to be honest. You'll never get them back so why give them away?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
****New strike date announced by Aslef, Saturday 12 March****