ATW Premier Service

[Rich McLean]

No offer of Fish & Chips at Newport then?

 

[BestWestern]

4 coaches? Has the Gerald set been made up to 3x TSO + Buffet 1st?

Appeared to be a problem with a sliding van door on the DVT, fitters trying unsuccessfully to close it with the aid of a crowbar! Shame, such a smart looking train as well!

 

[merlodlliw]

Appeared to be a problem with a sliding van door on the DVT, fitters trying unsuccessfully to close it with the aid of a crowbar! Shame, such a smart looking train as well!

So two lots of DVT problems, I presume it was the same DVT that had a leaking air line on the Up.

When W/S used DVTs there seemed a problem on occasions opening the sliding door and then closing it, lots of people late for work on Wednesday morning according to reports, due to the Wrexham/Birmingham being held for the WAG to pass at Wrexham.

 

[Chester025]

ATW site showing that the 1821 Cardiff - Holyhead is formed of 3 coaches instead of 4 but not mention of alterations to the catering. Anybody know any further?

 

[merlodlliw]

ATW site showing that the 1821 Cardiff - Holyhead is formed of 3 coaches instead of 4 but not mention of alterations to the catering. Anybody know any further?

Ive looked at the site & can not find it, can you give the link, or is it a closed site.I never find the ATW site easy , except the timetables

Many Thanks

Bob

 

[Chester025]

Ive looked at the site & can not find it, can you give the link, or is it a closed site.I never find the ATW site easy , except the timetables

Many Thanks

Bob

On the home page scroll down and click on the relevant route (for this either Shrewsbury - Cardiff or Shrewsbury - Holyhead) under the 'Live updates' section and it will give you the gen.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ive looked at the site & can not find it, can you give the link, or is it a closed site.I never find the ATW site easy , except the timetables
Many Thanks
Bob

It's in the Live Updates section (eg Marches line) under "Train Formation Update".

 

[merlodlliw]

Many thanks both of you.

Bob

 

[D1009]

So two lots of DVT problems, I presume it was the same DVT that had a leaking air line on the Up.

When W/S used DVTs there seemed a problem on occasions opening the sliding door and then closing it, lots of people late for work on Wednesday morning according to reports, due to the Wrexham/Birmingham being held for the WAG to pass at Wrexham.

Is it running OK this week? Intending to have dinner on it tomorrow evening Cardiff to Chester.

 

[merlodlliw]

Is it running OK this week? Intending to have dinner on it tomorrow evening Cardiff to Chester.

All appears well, but day to day experience is still being gained,according to North Wales newsboard this week, see below

DVT driver training runs have recommenced: above is 67 001 with 82308 at Llandudno Junction on 25 October awaiting the signal, as it was 39 minutes early (Peter Lloyd). For the timings of these trains, see the 13 August issue.

The 18:21 Cardiff - Holyhead on 22 October was the first to feature the full formation of three Mk3 standard class coaches as well as the First Class / Buffet coach, and Driving Van Trailer (DVT). Photographs of this train in either direction are hard to get die to darkness, but a freak chance occurred on 24 October when a problem, said to be a leak in the air-brake system, grounded the train at Holyhead and a breakfast-less Class 175 had to be found to run to Cardiff, 30 minutes late. Later, the fault was rectified and the train ran empty to Cardiff to take up the evening working.

This delay caused problems up the line: it seems the Wrexham - Birmingham stopping train waited for the connection from Chester and missed its front portion at Shrewsbury by about 20 minutes; it was terminated at Shrewsbury and passengers transferred to a London Midland stopping train. The 175
was then pressed into service straight away to substitute for the following Manchester - Carmarthen 175 which expired at Shrewsbury and had to be 'dumped' in the siding. link http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

I presume the odd problem will occur from time to time, hope all is well with your journey today/tomorrow, give us some feedback.

Bob

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All appears well, but day to day experience is still being gained,according to North Wales newsboard this week, see below
Bob

I recognise those words...

 

[D1009]

I presume the odd problem will occur from time to time, hope all is well with your journey today/tomorrow, give us some feedback.

Bob

Immaculately turned out set propelled by 67002. The ride was so smooth you needed to look out of the window to know whether or not you were moving. I was going to say it was a faultless journey, but comparing my notes with the timetable we were progressively losing time without being aware of any actual delay, arriving Chester 8 minutes late.

There were three of us in our party, and two others were dining. For those interested the menu was :

Starters

Cream of Asparagus soup with bread roll and butter

or

Warm pate en croute with toast or Cumberland sauce

or

Chef's special homemade gravlax of salmon with a honey, mustard and dill dressing

Main Course

Confit of Duck with braised red cabbage with apple and a rich plum sauce

or

Garlic and herb crusted Welsh rack of Lamb with seasonal vegetables and a rosemary and redcurrant split jus

both above dishes served with dauphinoise potatoes

or

Vegetable Moussaka served with caesar dressed salad

Dessert

Sticky toffee sponge pudding served with custard

or

Lemon Cheesecake served with cream

or

A selection of Welsh cheeses served with savoury biscuits and local chutney


Between us we sampled two each of the starters and main courses and all three desserts, and none of us could fault any of the food or the service. All in all it was an experience I can thoroughly recommend. A bit like the Olympics, it shows that given the money, the railway can deliver excellence. Such a shame this service is so little used.

 

[All Line Rover]

Between us we sampled two each of the starters and main courses and all three desserts, and none of us could fault any of the food or the service. All in all it was an experience I can thoroughly recommend. A bit like the Olympics, it shows that given the money, the railway can deliver excellence. Such a shame this service is so little used.

The main cause of the underutilisation of the Premier Service is the botched fares structure combined with a lack of promotion.

The train now stops at Hereford in both directions, yet there are no First Class fares between Hereford and Cardiff, or between Hereford and Shrewsbury. How do ATW expect to attract more First Class passengers if there are no First Class fares for them to purchase?

In addition, there are no First Class Advance fares between Shrewsbury and Cardiff - the only option being a £125.20 FOR. Even where First Class Advance fares are available, these cost £61 single, and only £61 single.

The FOR fares are only affordable by premium business travellers, which are lacking between Holyhead and Cardiff and stations in between. Furthermore, £61 for a Chester to Cardiff First Class Advance single is too expensive for most leisure travellers (myself included). One can travel from Chester to Glasgow for £37, from Chester to London for £36.50, from Manchester to Birmingham for £21.50, from Sheffield to London for £20. £61 is very unattractive in comparison, especially when the Standard Class fare costs just £12!

The FOR fares should remain at current prices but ATW should add more reasonably priced intermediate fares (such as between Hereford and Cardiff), should introduce additional tiers of Advance fares to attract leisure travellers (prices starting at £29 for Cardiff to Hereford, £39 for Cardiff to Shrewsbury, £49 for Cardiff to Chester and £69 for Cardiff to Holyhead would in my opinion be reasonable), and should promote the service more.

 

[D1009]

The FOR fares are only affordable by premium business travellers, which are lacking between Holyhead and Cardiff and stations in between. Furthermore, £61 for a Chester to Cardiff First Class Advance single is too expensive for most leisure travellers (myself included). One can travel from Chester to Glasgow for £37, from Chester to London for £36.50, from Manchester to Birmingham for £21.50, from Sheffield to London for £20. £61 is very unattractive in comparison, especially when the Standard Class fare costs just £12!

The FOR fares should remain at current prices but ATW should add more reasonably priced intermediate fares (such as between Hereford and Cardiff), should introduce additional tiers of Advance fares to attract leisure travellers (prices starting at £29 for Cardiff to Hereford, £39 for Cardiff to Shrewsbury, £49 for Cardiff to Chester and £69 for Cardiff to Holyhead would in my opinion be reasonable), and should promote the service more.

It's a premium product, and there is only a very limited amount of accommodation in the restaurant car, like 8 tables, but it's an excellent service in terms of what the railway usually provides.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's a premium product, and there is only a very limited amount of accommodation in the restaurant car, like 8 tables, but it's an excellent service in terms of what the railway usually provides.

Problem is that it's very often empty! If they had capacity problems then I'd agree that trying to sell more tickets is clearly a bad idea but when the WAG Express often has plenty of spare seats in first class then you have to ask are ATW really pricing/marketing the service properly?

 

[merlodlliw]

D 1009 the railway can deliver excellence. Such a shame this service is so little used.

[/QUOTE]

You have hit the nail on the head,it seems when the Wag left Cardiff at 1615 the dinner was little used, at 1821 it is having the same effect, five dinners on the down is above average, thanks for the report, like All Line Rover says, the fare structure for 1st is it seems worked out by ATW/WG staff who never use the service, good to see it stop at ATWs Hereford hub so long as you travel standard.
It is my opinion unless the train departs Cardiff at 1721, it will never capture a better market of travellers, but even then I doubt first would increase, but as this train is a WG prestige product, numbers of 1st dont appear to matter, anyhow ATW get paid Wether 1st is empty or full. As for marketing, in the real world alarm bells would be sounding as to why so few use 1st, it is obvious no market research was ever carried out,

Bob

 

[All Line Rover]

It's a premium product, and there is only a very limited amount of accommodation in the restaurant car, like 8 tables, but it's an excellent service in terms of what the railway usually provides.

It's all well and good having a 'premium product' (which I agree it is), but not if people don't use it! It is a farce if ATW really do get paid the same amount no matter how many people travel on it.

Also, even though there are only 8 tables available, ATW only need to introduce 1 or 2 Advance tickets at the cheapest tier to justify advertising cheap headline prices. If you advertise "Cardiff to Chester with a 3-course meal - £49," I'm sure interest in the service would increase, even if only two tickets are available at that price. East Coast do this a lot, as do East Midlands Trains. Advance fares allow effective demand management whilst also advertising of cheap prices. ATW are not taking advantage of these benefits by having a single tier of First Class Advance Fares priced at £61!

 

[quarella]

The train now stops at Hereford in both directions, yet there are no First Class fares between Hereford and Cardiff, or between Hereford and Shrewsbury. How do ATW expect to attract more First Class passengers if there are no First Class fares for them to purchase?

It's been many years since I worked in a booking office (thank goodness!) but I seem to recall a formula for calculating first class fares where none were listed.

 

[All Line Rover]

It's been many years since I worked in a booking office (thank goodness!) but I seem to recall a formula for calculating first class fares where none were listed.

I appreciate it is possible to 'create' a First Class fare (1.5x the Standard Class fare, which is actually excellent value for Hereford to Cardiff!), but most passengers wan't to avoid this hassle. Furthermore, as there are no First Class fares there is no indication on booking engines that First Class accommodation is available.

 

[merlodlliw]

It's all well and good having a 'premium product' (which I agree it is), but not if people don't use it! It is a farce if ATW really do get paid the same amount no matter how many people travel on it.

Indeed ATW get £2 millions to run the train a year pax or not makes no difference to the WG O/A subsidy.

Has ATW also keep the fare revenue, it surprises me how little the train is advertised by them, lower the 1st fare, try get more pax in first & get more money,but I have to wonder is the demand there for first between Cardiff & the North,when the Mark 3s are like first compared to DMUs.

 

[jones_bangor]

Indeed ATW get £2 millions to run the train a year pax or not makes no difference to the WG O/A subsidy.

Has ATW also keep the fare revenue, it surprises me how little the train is advertised by them, lower the 1st fare, try get more pax in first & get more money,but I have to wonder is the demand there for first between Cardiff & the North,when the Mark 3s are like first compared to DMUs.

I think there's several problems with the service - departure too late, only one service (1st class) each way, fares too high....

It's a shame when the 16:21 and 17:21 services are jam packed and would benefit from the extra seats and comfort.

 

[Penmorfa]

Indeed ATW get £2 millions to run the train a year pax or not makes no difference to the WG O/A subsidy.

less the cost of running the train, employing the staff, hiring the loco and paying the track access charges. £2 million is a handy figure to bandy about but it is not a true reflection of the cost.

Has ATW also keep the fare revenue, it surprises me how little the train is advertised by them, lower the 1st fare, try get more pax in first & get more money,but I have to wonder is the demand there for first between Cardiff & the North,when the Mark 3s are like first compared to DMUs.

The seats in the Mark 3's are identical to the DMU 158's. The average passenger would not notice the difference until they got confused trying to open the door to get off!

 

[Rhydgaled]

The seats in the Mark 3's are identical to the DMU 158's. The average passenger would not notice the difference until they got confused trying to open the door to get off!

Is the legroom better though? I certainly expect the mark3s have more tables now the 158s have been refurbished, with tables removed to make up for the space lost to ERTMS equipment.

Do I take it from comments above that the new Cardiff - Holyhead Gerald is less well used (in standard) than it was in the old 16:15 slot?

 

[merlodlliw]

less the cost of running the train, employing the staff, hiring the loco and paying the track access charges. £2 million is a handy figure to bandy about but it is not a true reflection of the cost.

The hire of the loco/DVT/refurb Coaches was built into the £3.5M WG paid ATW to obtain the stock, the annual £2M is the subsidy WG pay ATW to run the service,it is not all profit but a comfort zone, £2millions subsidy & keeping all fares as an open access is not bad accounting.

The seats in the Mark 3's are identical to the DMU 158's. The average passenger would not notice the difference until they got confused trying to open the door to get off!

There is more leg room.better toilets & more disabled access plus less noise from under slung engines Most seats are bays of four around tables with only a couple of airline style seats. Power sockets are also fitted.Any regular pax would soon notice the difference in my opinion,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think there's several problems with the service - departure too late, only one service (1st class) each way, fares too high....

It's a shame when the 16:21 and 17:21 services are jam packed and would benefit from the extra seats and comfort.

I fully agree the departure is too late, 1721 would be an ideal time, but then it would become just a stopper. We had heard rumours of change from Dec 12,but alas with only five weeks to the new timetable? this appears to have fallen by the wayside,with ATW Managers mentioning the timings remain on the WAG as now,ATW appear to be yet again the only TOC not to publish its new timetable for information,printing of hard copy must have commenced by now.

The first class/free meal service on the WAG which I have always been critical off, is far too expensive in my opinion, the current set up is from political aspiration,& most of us know few Politicians have business acumen, no one seems to bother why so few use First,certainly like others at current cost I would never consider it.

 

[jones_bangor]

There is more leg room.better toilets & more disabled access plus less noise from under slung engines Most seats are bays of four around tables with only a couple of airline style seats. Power sockets are also fitted.Any regular pax would soon notice the difference in my opinion,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I fully agree the departure is too late, 1721 would be an ideal time, but then it would become just a stopper. We had heard rumours of change from Dec 12,but alas with only five weeks to the new timetable? this appears to have fallen by the wayside,with ATW Managers mentioning the timings remain on the WAG as now,ATW appear to be yet again the only TOC not to publish its new timetable for information,printing of hard copy must have commenced by now.

The first class/free meal service on the WAG which I have always been critical off, is far too expensive in my opinion, the current set up is from political aspiration,& most of us know few Politicians have business acumen, no one seems to bother why so few use First,certainly like others at current cost I would never consider it.

Unless First Class is introduced on more North to South services, then the use of the "Premier" service will remain very limited whatever the cost.

 

[TDK]

I fully agree the departure is too late, 1721 would be an ideal time, but then it would become just a stopper. We had heard rumours of change from Dec 12,but alas with only five weeks to the new timetable? this appears to have fallen by the wayside,with ATW Managers mentioning the timings remain on the WAG as now,ATW appear to be yet again the only TOC not to publish its new timetable for information,printing of hard copy must have commenced by now.

ATW do not have a say in the train running times for the WAG it is the WAG that govourns the times

 

[merlodlliw]

There is more leg room.better toilets & more disabled access plus less noise from under slung engines Most seats are bays of four around tables with only a couple of airline style seats. Power sockets are also fitted.Any regular pax would soon notice the difference in my opinion,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Unless First Class is introduced on more North to South services, then the use of the "Premier" service will remain very limited whatever the cost.

In many ways I agree with you,but we wont see any other First Class as you say North/South until the new franchise whatever that may look like comes around. I do recall many years ago seeing the lone Cardiff/Holyhead via Crewe loco hauled having 1st Western Region stock, I am sure this train left Cardiff around 6.00p.m. or so in 1982 , I was returning from the Welsh Office,having handed in a HR1 on behalf of my boss,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ATW do not have a say in the train running times for the WAG it is the WAG that govourns the times

My understanding is, the 1821 departure time was discussed by ATW/WG rail unit & Network Rail,agreed by the Minister then passed on to the ORR for rubber stamping.

OK I agree the main pressure would come from WG, who after all pay for the O/A train, but ATW do have major input.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do I take it from comments above that the new Cardiff - Holyhead Gerald is less well used (in standard) than it was in the old 16:15 slot?

Rhydgaled

Certainly on the up train a lot of traffic as been lost by ATW between Chester & Crewe,as for the Wrexham up route, traffic off the Birmingham as simply transferred to the WAG into Wrexham for Glyndwr/Yale & business

 

[67012]

I think now ATW have a decent train set, its a real shame that its not used a little more.
When the spare set is done they should both be put to work a Cardiff - Holyhead diagram with one starting and finnishing at either end of the route.
But that would make sense

 

[merlodlliw]

I think now ATW have a decent train set, its a real shame that its not used a little more.
When the spare set is done they should both be put to work a Cardiff - Holyhead diagram with one starting and finnishing at either end of the route.
But that would make sense

But who would pay the£2million running costs? ATW wont,better used on heavy traffic routes like Cardiff to Manchester,but that wont happen.

 

[jones_bangor]

But who would pay the£2million running costs? ATW wont,better used on heavy traffic routes like Cardiff to Manchester,but that wont happen.

The running costs wouldn't be anywhere near that high if the 17:21 became LHCS.....