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ATW. No reservations. Look what happens.....

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http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...news/catholic-priest-paul-joseph-carr-6411692

Manchester Evening News said:
17 Dec 2013 06:00

An unholy row: Catholic priest in 'punch-up' with train passenger

A catholic priest was involved in a scuffle with a train passenger in a row over a reserved seat.

Paul Joseph Carr, 53, got on the Arriva train from Manchester Piccadilly to Llandudno in Wales when he found the seat he had reserved online taken by Joseph Lane and his friends.

A row broke out and Mr Carr was alleged to have punched Mr Lane.

He was hauled to court where he was found not guilty of punching passenger Joseph Lane in the face after a day-long trial after magistrates ruled he had acted in self defence.

The court heard how Mr Carr, of Bossall Avenue, Blackley , boarded the train one day in February to find a friend of Mr Lane's sat in the seat he had reserved in an online booking.

Mr Lane was with his wife Winifred and another couple sat on four seats around a table on a trip to Chester.

He told magistrates that Mr Carr angrily confronted his party and demanded they give up the seat he had reserved.

Mr Lane, giving evidence at Manchester magistrates court, said he told Mr Carr there were no reservation cards in the back of any seats.

Mr Carr then picked up a rucksack from the table in front of them in a bid to force them to leave and began to walk away with it, it was claimed.

Mrs Lane said she had to wrestle back the rucksack.

Her husband then admitted that he grabbed hold of Mr Carr's coat lapels but said Mr Carr punched him once in the face, causing a swollen lip and a slight cut.

Mr Carr, who is understood to have connections to a Catholic church in Vancouver, Canada, was spoken to by an off-duty British Transport Police officer and taken from the train at Oxford Road.

He was later charged with a single count of common assault, a charge he denied.

Mr Carr, who gave his occupation as a member of the clergy and said he was travelling to a retreat in Rhyl, denied he was 'agitated and aggressive'.

He told the court: “I had my ticket and my reservation and I showed it them.

“He (Mr Lane) said they were not moving as they were already sat down, then he grinned at the man sat next to him. Almost as an incentive I moved the bag to the end of the table.

“The man stood up and reached past his wife then grabbed hold of me. He pulled me forward and I did not know what he was going to do.

“I put my hand out and that is when it hit his lower jaw. The only contact that was made was when I pushed his head away. I did not punch him.”

William Kempton, chairman of the bench, said Mr Carr's evidence was 'consistent and believable'.

He said: “We believe, taking into consideration the defendant's good character, that you did cause injury to the complainant, but it was self defence to keep him at bay and the force you used was reasonable.”

Mr Carr left court without commenting.

I hear the reservations weren't put on, which is the root cause of the scrap in the first place. Whilst I agree, nowadays many passengers are animals, a train company has an obligation to run a proper service. I know some people think they are great, but I believe the poorly managed ATW franchise has had it's day.
 
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jopsuk

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Not putting out the reservations is in no-way an excuse for violence. This fight cannot reasonably be blamed on ATW.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Having been caught in exactly the same way on this service, I was appalled at the aggressive attitude of the guy waving his reservation.
I didn't punch him, but it was a case of "get out of my seat".
Politeness costs nothing.
In any case, if there are no seat reservations displayed, it's not at all clear where the rights of the matter are.
The original seated passenger has not "made a mistake".
ATW normally have 50 minutes parked up in Mayfield siding with the Llandudno train, plenty of time to get the labels out.
 

yorkie

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Paul Joseph Carr had no right to the seat.

A ticket does not guarantee a seat, and when reservations are not available, it's the same as any other non-reservable train.

If someone is in really desperate need of a seat, and they ask appropriately, then there is much more chance of someone in less need of a seat giving it up, than if they start demanding.

It is also interesting to read that some of those who rabble on about sin and preaching to us, are actually not good role models at all! Will the Catholic Church be taking appropriate action? I suspect not, as they do have a habit of sweeping things under the carpet!
 

broadgage

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Agree, it does sound inefficient of ATW not to reserve seats, but firstly this does not justify violence, and secondly AFAIK if a seat is not marked as reserved then anyone with a valid ticket may use it.
 

Hyphen

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In any case, if there are no seat reservations displayed, it's not at all clear where the rights of the matter are.

As I understand it, if there are no reservations set out then effectively, reservations will not (cannot) be honoured. That's certainly the case on XC, when the reservation screens are not working, and I've seen it on other TOCs where a set has been swapped at very short notice.

Politeness costs nothing.

Absolutely! As I see it, if I'm on a service without reservations and somebody comes up to me and asks politely, I'm very unlikely to refuse to move. If somebody came up to me and demanded I move, chances are I'll stay put.

(if reservations are in force and I'm obviously in the wrong, I'd move regardless of how I was asked)
 

Welshman

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Interesting that it was reported the seat was reserved online.

Whenever I've reserved seats online with ATW, the actual reservation voucher has simply allotted a place on the train [ eg. coachxx, seatxxx].

I understood the only way to get specific allotted seats on ATW is to reserve them at a booking-office.

Although this clergy member of the Church Militant here in earth seems to have been convinced he had a specific seat allotted, I wonder if this has possibly been the cause of some confusion.
 

oldman

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I just tried booking Man-Llandudno on the Virgin site. For an allday single it reserves a specific seat, for an advance it does not - it says I can sit in any unreserved seat, which is nice of them.

So on a ticket which is only valid on a particular train, I can't reserve a seat. On a ticket which I can use on a different train if I feel like it, I can. You can see why passengers get annoyed with the industry sometimes.

The ATW site appears to say nothing about reservations, which is probably just as well.
 

northwichcat

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Whenever I've reserved seats online with ATW, the actual reservation voucher has simply allotted a place on the train [ eg. coachxx, seatxxx].

That should only happen on an Advance ticket as ATW don't want to guarantee seats to people with Advance tickets and leave people with full priced tickets without but they do offer seat reservations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
AFAIK if a seat is not marked as reserved then anyone with a valid ticket may use it.

As long as the person occupying the seat didn't remove the reservation ticket from it.
 

Tetchytyke

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Politeness costs nothing, and I suspect this guy's got away with it by hamming up his religious connections to the Bench.

I don't move for people if the reservations are not displayed. I apologise profusely, of course, but say they should go speak to the guard if they are so upset. Usually they find a different seat. I also don't try and move people if I have a reservation and they are not displayed, I merely curse at the useless Cross Country for being useless.
 

bnm

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Not putting out the reservations is in no-way an excuse for violence. This fight cannot reasonably be blamed on ATW.

No violence according to the court verdict. Self defence and reasonable force.

It is also interesting to read that some of those who rabble on about sin and preaching to us, are actually not good role models at all!

A character assessment from one news report? Brilliant. :roll:

Will the Catholic Church be taking appropriate action? I suspect not, as they do have a habit of sweeping things under the carpet!

What action do you think the Catholic Church should take against one of their clergy being found not guilty in a court of law?

Not a good idea to touch someone's property or to ask someone to move from seats that aren't marked as reserved, but the response from Mr Lane (grabbing Mr Carr's lapels) appeared to escalate the confrontation, resulting in Mr Carr resorting to self defence. A more rational response from Mr Lane would've been to refuse to move and to tell Mr Carr to seek out a member of staff if he was unhappy at not having his reserved seat. The ball would then have been in Mr Carr's court. He may well then have escalated the situation himself, or equally may've gone to find the staff member.

But as Mr Carr was arrested and charged he must be guilty in the court of RailUK. I'm glad are judiciary have a bit more common sense.
 

Tracky

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I just tried booking Man-Llandudno on the Virgin site. For an allday single it reserves a specific seat, for an advance it does not - it says I can sit in any unreserved seat, which is nice of them.

So on a ticket which is only valid on a particular train, I can't reserve a seat. On a ticket which I can use on a different train if I feel like it, I can. You can see why passengers get annoyed with the industry sometimes.

The ATW site appears to say nothing about reservations, which is probably just as well.

Advance purchase tickets come with a counted place but no reserved seat. London Midland do the same. If you wish to make a reservation, it is possible by presenting your ticket at a ticket office. I think it was felt, by some, unfair, that those who had paid the least, get a booked seat.

It is just a feature of the Virgin site that they book a seat for you when buying a flexible ticket. That too is a pain as many people don't then make use of them...
 

Flamingo

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If there were no reservations on any seat that is one thing.

However, I have on occasions found groups of four at tables where every other reservation was out, but, as if by magic, the reservations at the table had disappeared!

I'd wonder what happened in this case...
 

island

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I just tried booking Man-Llandudno on the Virgin site. For an allday single it reserves a specific seat, for an advance it does not - it says I can sit in any unreserved seat, which is nice of them.

So on a ticket which is only valid on a particular train, I can't reserve a seat. On a ticket which I can use on a different train if I feel like it, I can. You can see why passengers get annoyed with the industry sometimes.

This is a situation specific to ATW and I'm not sure why it is allowed to get away with it.
 

jopsuk

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If there were no reservations on any seat that is one thing.

However, I have on occasions found groups of four at tables where every other reservation was out, but, as if by magic, the reservations at the table had disappeared!

I'd wonder what happened in this case...

I was wondering if that was the case here, in which case the four at the table could have been fined under railway byelaws.

Still isn't an excuse for violence.
 

All Line Rover

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No it's not - the same applies to LM as already mentioned.

No, LM don't do seat reservations at all, so it is a free for all. Fair enough, I say.

ATW DO do seat reservations, meaning it is possible for an unreserved Advance ticket holder to board a train where almost every seat has already been reserved.
 

Tetchytyke

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No it's not - the same applies to LM as already mentioned.

London Midland do not offer seat reservations. If you purchase an advance ticket (or, if online, you ask to reserve a seat for a walk on fare) you will get a "reservation coupon" showing the train time and date but with carriage and seat replaced with asterisks.
 

kieron

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This is a situation specific to ATW and I'm not sure why it is allowed to get away with it.
I don't suppose you'll ever find out, but they may be able to tell you why they started doing it this way in the first place. They certainly used to give reservations with Advance tickets booked on-line.

Incidentally, the article doesn't say much about what Mr. Carr's connection with the Catholic church is. As he's Mr. Carr rather than Fr. Carr, the word "priest" may be journalistic shorthand rather than an accurate description of his office.

Whatever he is, there's nothing the Church should do now in response to this altercation which they wouldn't have done 10 months ago.
 
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Tetchytyke

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The article is just a standard "send the intern up to court for the day and see what happens" article you get in all the local newspapers. It's what they do when there's a quiet news day.

The "links with the Catholic Church" will have been picked up from what his defence solicitor said in court. As I said before, it sounds very much like he's played the religion card to get away with being a penis.

Flamingo said:
However, I have on occasions found groups of four at tables where every other reservation was out, but, as if by magic, the reservations at the table had disappeared!

I'd wonder what happened in this case...

The reservation tags say there's a £200 penalty for "unauthorised removal of this label" and £50 for "unauthorised occupation of this seat". I'd love to know if anyone has actually been charged this.
 

island

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No, LM don't do seat reservations at all, so it is a free for all. Fair enough, I say.

ATW DO do seat reservations, meaning it is possible for an unreserved Advance ticket holder to board a train where almost every seat has already been reserved.

Yes, this. AGA, SWT, and a few other TOCs sell advances and offer nobody reservations. This is all the same for everyone. ATW offers seat reservations to all booking office customers and to all walk-up ticket holders, but online advance ticket purchasers don't get one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't suppose you'll ever find out, but they may be able to tell you why they started doing it this way in the first place. They certainly used to give reservations with Advance tickets booked on-line.

I've a mate who's a guard in ATW actually, maybe I'll see if he knows or can make discreet enquiries.
 

Darandio

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What violence? I'll mention it again. Defendant was found not guilty having used reasonable force in self defence.

Which is truly staggering, read the report again.

The defendant angrily confronts them and demands they move, despite there being no obligation to do so.

The defendant then picks up their belongings and begins to walk away with it.

They then seemed to grab his coat lapels, but then get a punch in the face with evidence of injury to prove it.

Yet he gets off scot free, because of his 'position'. I don't care what divine light they have tried to paint him in, it's just more proof that the justice system is a load of bollocks.
 

EbbwJunction1

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I have in front of me three seat reservation tickets.

They are Newport to Bristol Parkway, Bristol Parkway to Birmingham New Street and Birmingham New Street to Newport. They've all been booked through FGW, and the details of each seat (e.g. B33) are on the ticket and on the printout from FGW.

However, I have at other times booked seats through FGW on different lines and, whilst the printout from FGW has stated which seat(s) are reserved, the ticket hasn't. I don't know why this should be, as it's annoying to have to search through the paperwork to find the right seat when travelling.

It seems to me that there's no consistency amongst the operators, which is to my mind just wrong.
 

Searle

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bnm:1653843 said:
Not putting out the reservations is in no-way an excuse for violence. This fight cannot reasonably be blamed on ATW.

No violence according to the court verdict. Self defence and reasonable force.

It is also interesting to read that some of those who rabble on about sin and preaching to us, are actually not good role models at all!

A character assessment from one news report? Brilliant. :roll:

Will the Catholic Church be taking appropriate action? I suspect not, as they do have a habit of sweeping things under the carpet!

What action do you think the Catholic Church should take against one of their clergy being found not guilty in a court of law?

Not a good idea to touch someone's property or to ask someone to move from seats that aren't marked as reserved, but the response from Mr Lane (grabbing Mr Carr's lapels) appeared to escalate the confrontation, resulting in Mr Carr resorting to self defence. A more rational response from Mr Lane would've been to refuse to move and to tell Mr Carr to seek out a member of staff if he was unhappy at not having his reserved seat. The ball would then have been in Mr Carr's court. He may well then have escalated the situation himself, or equally may've gone to find the staff member.

But as Mr Carr was arrested and charged he must be guilty in the court of RailUK. I'm glad are judiciary have a bit more common sense.

I'm surprised you can still breathe upon that sky high horse of yours :roll:
 
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Tracky

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ATW DO do seat reservations, meaning it is possible for an unreserved Advance ticket holder to board a train where almost every seat has already been reserved.

Ummm... There are unreservable seats on every train... Most of the Llandudno-Manchester diagrams are booked 3 car 175s, and Coach B will never contain reservations so over 1/3 of the seats are first come first served... Since refurbishment 158's have a number of seats which carry no numbers...
 

PaxVobiscum

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I was wondering how I have managed up to now to have reserved seats with Advance tickets on ATW trains (nearly always with reservations in place on the actual seats on the day). I see now that I actually have booked these elsewhere - either with ScotRail or EastCoast.

Maybe that's a way round it. Mind you, it doesn't help with louty students who make a beeline for your clearly reserved seats at Aberystwyth and refuse to move when asked politely.

We sat elsewhere (no court appearance). :D
 

headshot119

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I was wondering how I have managed up to now to have reserved seats with Advance tickets on ATW trains (nearly always with reservations in place on the actual seats on the day). I see now that I actually have booked these elsewhere - either with ScotRail or EastCoast.

Maybe that's a way round it. Mind you, it doesn't help with louty students who make a beeline for your clearly reserved seats at Aberystwyth and refuse to move when asked politely.

We sat elsewhere (no court appearance). :D

I book advance tickets on ATW all the time on East Coast and never get a seat reservation just seat * coach *.
 

PaxVobiscum

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I book advance tickets on ATW all the time on East Coast and never get a seat reservation just seat * coach *.

Strange. Here's one of mine (EC):
Your confirmation number is: XXXXXXXX

Journey: 1 Penrhyndeudraeth to Aberystwyth @ £12.45
ANYTIME DAY R £12.45 (1 @ £9.65, 1 @ £2.80)
With 1 Family & Friends railcard(s)
Remember to bring the railcard(s) for the journey

Journey: 1 Penrhyndeudraeth to Aberystwyth
Ticket type: Anytime Day Return Valid outward and return by the route and Train Operator shown, return same day.
Route: Any Permitted Route
Outward journey: XX XXX 2012
departs Penrhyndeudraeth at 10:06 travel by Train service provider Arriva Trains Wales to station Dovey Junction arrives 11:43 ( seats reserved: Coach: F Seats: 32B, 32F )
departs Dovey Junction at 12:55 travel by Train service provider Arriva Trains Wales to station Aberystwyth arrives 13:25 ( seats reserved: Coach: A Seats: 17B, 17F )
Return journey: XX XX 2012
departs Aberystwyth at 15:30 travel by Train service provider Arriva Trains Wales to station Dovey Junction arrives 15:53 ( seats reserved: Coach: A Seats: 17B, 17F )
departs Dovey Junction at 17:05 travel by Train service provider Arriva Trains Wales to station Penrhyndeudraeth arrives 18:45 ( seats reserved: Coach: D Seats: 16B, 16F )

Have done that journey a few times and had reserved seats.
 
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