ATW 175s

[Russonomics]

Since the start of this year I've had to travel twice a week from Milford Haven to Bridgend for business. The journey there is just fine. It's early, not too busy, always get a seat.

The return journey takes the proverbials though. In ten months, today was only the second time I've managed to get a seat straight away on the 14:04 to MFH. This is a (sorta) early afternoon service, nowhere near rush hour. I've gotten so used to standing near the almost always smelly toilets in the vestibule that I've gone nose blind.

As for the 175's themselves, I like the seats and the arctic air conditioning during the summer is a godsend, however I'm not a fan of them in general. The interior is drab and is in desperate need of some TLC. There's still the horrible Firstgroup Pink™ accents, the seats are getting tatty, the carpeting has dirt in the pile so heavy that even the most industrial of Henry hoovers barely touches it, the plastics all have scuff marks and scratches on them, that black rubbery stuff round the windows is falling apart and in the winter, the seventh circle of hell is cooler than the heat which blasts out of the vents.

If a complete refresh isn't viable then how about a deep clean? Push the window seals back in, buff the scuff, give the carpets a good shampoo etc.

 

[Mikey C]

The 175s (and 180s) became a bit of an orphan fleet after the demise of Alstom Washbrook Heath.

Without that closure, I wonder some of the subsequent Turbostar orders would have gone to them, and left a larger and more flexible fleet in the country?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Without that closure, I wonder some of the subsequent Turbostar orders would have gone to them, and left a larger and more flexible fleet in the country?

I'm glad it didn't, TBH. The 175s and 180s are a perfect example of a good idea that went wrong due to a few design flaws and appalling build quality - the latter being surprising given the very good build quality of the Pendolinos, which, the odd rattle aside that they've had since near enough day one, don't look tatty even now they're getting close to 15 years old.

They should have been the ultimate evolution of the Class 156, but the latter seem in better nick these days, even given the way Northern completely fail to look after them properly.

OTOH, the way ATW fail to maintain the 175s is pretty poor, too. Is it really that hard to push the window seals back in as soon as someone notices they are coming loose, or run an industrial Vax over the carpets[1] every couple of weeks? Though a design where they can't come loose or be picked at by vandals is of course preferable.

[1] Though I still think TOCs should consider specifying vinyl with a premium look instead of carpet, e.g. "fake wood". It seems a choice between mucky carpet and plain or stippled hospital-look vinyl, neither of which looks very welcoming.

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm glad it didn't, TBH. The 175s and 180s are a perfect example of a good idea that went wrong due to a few design flaws and appalling build quality - the latter being surprising given the very good build quality of the Pendolinos, which, the odd rattle aside that they've had since near enough day one, don't look tatty even now they're getting close to 15 years old.

They should have been the ultimate evolution of the Class 156, but the latter seem in better nick these days, even given the way Northern completely fail to look after them properly.

OTOH, the way ATW fail to maintain the 175s is pretty poor, too. Is it really that hard to push the window seals back in as soon as someone notices they are coming loose, or run an industrial Vax over the carpets[1] every couple of weeks? Though a design where they can't come loose or be picked at by vandals is of course preferable.

[1] Though I still think TOCs should consider specifying vinyl with a premium look instead of carpet, e.g. "fake wood". It seems a choice between mucky carpet and plain or stippled hospital-look vinyl, neither of which looks very welcoming.

ATW don't maintain them. They have their dedicated, Alstom owned, Depot at Chester.

 

[RobShipway]

ATW don't maintain them. They have their dedicated, Alstom owned, Depot at Chester.

With Alstom setting up a train workshop, where possibly trains could be built from in the future I wonder if there would be a more modern version of either the class 175 or class 180 being built within the facilities?

 

[Bletchleyite]

ATW don't maintain them. They have their dedicated, Alstom owned, Depot at Chester.

Good point.

In that case the contract is probably deficient.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

I've ridden on 175s between Manchester and North Wales a few times as well as Manchester to Shrewsbury when going to Aberystwyth (their 158s are great too) and I've never had any problems with them (although one time, one of the windows was leaking going from Bangor to Crewe but otherwise it was alright) - smooth ride, engine makes a lovely sound (quite relaxing actually), reasonably comfortable seats and spacious tables, as well as good seat to window alignment! Overall I rate them 8/10
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And be four carriages! If anything, Manchester to Cardiff is a route more deserving of four coach trains with a least some first class accommodation, than Crewe to London via the Trent Valley. The only reason why the latter gets four coach trains (as a minimum) is because it serves London, but Manchester to Cardiff can hardly be described as a quiet route. Unlike Crewe to London, it is busy throughout, in both directions of travel, for the majority of the day, seven days a week.

What they need is a system like the EMT 158s on the Norwich to Liverpool run where it's 4 carriages between Liverpool and Nottingham and then the train splits with 2 carriages carrying on to Norwich - Arriva can form a 4 or 5 car train (175/0 + 175/1) and the train splits at Cardiff with the 175/1 carrying on to Carmarthen or Milford Haven - I believe they don't do this because they don't have enough of the units (they only have 27 Class 175s after all)

 

[PHILIPE]

I've ridden on 175s between Manchester and North Wales a few times as well as Manchester to Shrewsbury when going to Aberystwyth (their 158s are great too) and I've never had any problems with them (although one time, one of the windows was leaking going from Bangor to Crewe but otherwise it was alright) - smooth ride, engine makes a lovely sound (quite relaxing actually), reasonably comfortable seats and spacious tables, as well as good seat to window alignment! Overall I rate them 8/10
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What they need is a system like the EMT 158s on the Norwich to Liverpool run where it's 4 carriages between Liverpool and Nottingham and then the train splits with 2 carriages carrying on to Norwich - Arriva can form a 4 or 5 car train (175/0 + 175/1) and the train splits at Cardiff with the 175/1 carrying on to Carmarthen or Milford Haven - I believe they don't do this because they don't have enough of the units (they only have 27 Class 175s after all)

Splitting and the associated shunting of units at Cardiff was dealt with several years ago when the Manchester services ran through to West Wales. The object of this move was to AVOID movements across the throat,

 

[Bevan Price]

For the business passengers, yes. However, with 2 and 3 carriage trains this is impractical. Plus when a 150 subs for a 175 a First Class ticket would be pointless! I endured 150259 all the way to Manchester not long ago, thankfully 175104 took us home and the difference was astronomical.
!

Unfortunately, the terms "common sense" and "TOC" are often incompatible, e.g. the total stupidity of Cross Country creating 1st class areas in 2 coach & 3 coach 170s that already had insufficient standard class seating.

And Northern is persisting with some 2 coach dmus in recent orders, although it is obvious that 2 coach trains are inadequate for most inter-urban services in the north.

In my opinion, 175s are the best UK dmus since the Class 123 & 124 classes, except that they are too small, and maybe due for a bit of refurbishment. I hope the next Wales franchise specifies enough new trains to boost capacity on the principal routes, as others comment, Manchester to both South & North Wales need at least 4 standard class coaches (or 6 coach formations of cascaded 185s, if that became a future option....)

 

[craigybagel]

Interestingly enough, I worked a round trip on the Manchester-Cardiff route today. I won't say which trains exactly I worked, but for the vast majority of both journeys there were less than 50 people on.......like I've said before, take away sporting occasions and other special events and the vast majority of the time the current fleet copes pretty well.

 

[6Gman]

Interestingly enough, I worked a round trip on the Manchester-Cardiff route today. I won't say which trains exactly I worked, but for the vast majority of both journeys there were less than 50 people on.......like I've said before, take away sporting occasions and other special events and the vast majority of the time the current fleet copes pretty well.

And, of course, "overcrowding" often means - I couldn't get a seat ...... without sitting next to/ opposite somebody to whom I've yet to be formally introduced, therefore I chose to stand.

The 175s are brilliant. They're due (overdue ?) a thorough refurb. Would be nice if they were longer - but is anyone volunteering to pay the extra fares/taxes?

 

[Bevan Price]

And, of course, "overcrowding" often means - I couldn't get a seat ...... without sitting next to/ opposite somebody to whom I've yet to be formally introduced, therefore I chose to stand.

The 175s are brilliant. They're due (overdue ?) a thorough refurb. Would be nice if they were longer - but is anyone volunteering to pay the extra fares/taxes?

They might gain some revenue by re-attracting former rail users who probably deserted rail travel after repeated encounters with "wedged" Voyagers and short dmu formations.

 

[ag51ruk]

Interestingly enough, I worked a round trip on the Manchester-Cardiff route today. I won't say which trains exactly I worked, but for the vast majority of both journeys there were less than 50 people on.......like I've said before, take away sporting occasions and other special events and the vast majority of the time the current fleet copes pretty well.

I suspect you weren't working the 1730 from Manchester on either day when it was 2 coaches last week though? Until Nantwich, that is a horrible train when short formed and it does seem to have been happening more often.

 

[Techniquest]

Depends which trains you're on and on which bit of the route sometimes! My last trip from Manchester to Hereford almost 2 weeks ago was rammed between Manchester and Wilmslow (this was the 1530 on 29th September 2016), still very busy to Crewe, lots off, almost as many on til Shrewsbury when lots of seats became available until Ludlow, when coach B was only about a quarter full. From Hereford I don't know how loaded it was, I suspect later on it would have been very busy in South Wales.

Agreed a proper refurb is due, but if that means losing the surprisingly comfortable seats then that's not good.

As for sending the 180s over, umm no thanks. Those unreliable pieces of junk are as desired here as 442s, that is to say both classes should be sent to Rotherham...

 

[craigybagel]

I suspect you weren't working the 1730 from Manchester on either day when it was 2 coaches last week though? Until Nantwich, that is a horrible train when short formed and it does seem to have been happening more often.

Indeed. However it's worth pointing out that when it has it's booked 3 cars (which as a high priority train it usually does) it's normally only got people standing as far as Wilmslow. Given it's the height of the rush hour you'd struggle to find any train out of a major city at that time that doesn't have people standing for the first 15 minutes. After Nantwich there's usually only 100 or so on (on a train with 200 seats) and by Shrewsbury it's often 50 or less.

Between the fire at Barmouth Bridge and the unit fire at Caerphilly, last week was not a good week for availability. 2 fatalities in the last 3 days won't help either.
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Depends which trains you're on and on which bit of the route sometimes! My last trip from Manchester to Hereford almost 2 weeks ago was rammed between Manchester and Wilmslow (this was the 1530 on 29th September 2016), still very busy to Crewe, lots off, almost as many on til Shrewsbury when lots of seats became available until Ludlow, when coach B was only about a quarter full. From Hereford I don't know how loaded it was, I suspect later on it would have been very busy in South Wales.

The 1530 isn't too bad as long as it keeps its 3 cars. It is as you noticed pretty consistently busy throughout its journey but it's normally got a few seats as a 3 car.

 

[43096]

given the very good build quality of the Pendolinos, which, the odd rattle aside

I assume this is an ironic post...

If it isn't then I will just say that the build quality is appalling on the 390s. All of the post privatisation stuff out of Washwood Heath suffers from the "curse of Alstom" to a greater or lesser extent.

 

[rebmcr]

And, of course, "overcrowding" often means - I couldn't get a seat ...... without sitting next to/ opposite somebody to whom I've yet to be formally introduced, therefore I chose to stand.

The 175s are brilliant. They're due (overdue ?) a thorough refurb. Would be nice if they were longer - but is anyone volunteering to pay the extra fares/taxes?

The Manchester-Milford Haven services are absolutely rammed east of Cardiff in both directions, at many different times and days when I've done the journey.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Manchester-Milford Haven services are absolutely rammed east of Cardiff in both directions, at many different times and days when I've done the journey.

What percentage of the Manchester to Milford Haven services are normally just the 2-car version?

 

[craigybagel]

What percentage of the Manchester to Milford Haven services are normally just the 2-car version?

0630, 0730, 1030, 1130 and 1830 from Manchester were 2 cars today. Of those the only one that regularly stuggles to seat everybody east of Cardiff is the 1830, which is usually standing room only until Wilmslow. The 0630 is very busy between Ludlow and Hereford with school and college students but is otherwise nearly empty.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

If it's only really overcrowded between Manchester and Wilmslow, then maybe everyone travelling between those two stations should really use the Virgin Train due to much more capacity!

About the loco hauled service that occasionally operates from Manchester to North Wales, it would make more sense if that was used on the South Wales services from Manchester as they seem more deserving of it!

 

[craigybagel]

If it's only really overcrowded between Manchester and Wilmslow, then maybe everyone travelling between those two stations should really use the Virgin Train due to much more capacity!

About the loco hauled service that occasionally operates from Manchester to North Wales, it would make more sense if that was used on the South Wales services from Manchester as they seem more deserving of it!

There is a Northern Alderley Edge service 8 minutes behind the ATW every hour. I have tried to persuade Wilmslow passengers to use it on exceptionally busy days (like when the previous train has been cancelled for example) without much success.

Loco and stock would indeed be nice to have, although to be fair to the North Wales service they're very busy too, and at the time they were introduced it was much easier to introduce them to that route than to South Wales. They did so initially without needing to train up any more traincrew, it fits neatly into a self contained diagram, and AFAIK there is only one station (Helsby) where the train doesn't fit so local door operation is required. For the South Wales route, there were no conductors who signed the stock who also signed Crewe-Manchester (this is currently being worked on), you would have to decide whether you want to continue to run the train west of Cardiff (which again requires training more staff) or split the timetable up, and you have platform length issues at Whitchurch (up), Wem (both), Ludlow (down), Leominster (both) and Abergavenny (down). With the exception of Wem they'll all take 4 MKIIIs but getting the DVT on is an issue. A solution could be found (and has been done when Gerald has been forced to make additional stops) but still more complex than the North Wales option.

 

[ValleyLines142]

What percentage of the Manchester to Milford Haven services are normally just the 2-car version?

Usually the 0730, 1030, 1130, 1830 and 1930 services from Manchester.

 

[irish_rail]

Well if Abellio get this franchise you will probably end up with some awful Stadler type concoction with doors in the centre of the coach. 175s are not perfect, but they could be a whole lot worse..

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well if Abellio get this franchise you will probably end up with some awful Stadler type concoction with doors in the centre of the coach. 175s are not perfect, but they could be a whole lot worse..

Have you travelled on one yet (e.g. a European one)?

If not, do so before judging. They really are very nice.

 

[CosherB]

Well if Abellio get this franchise you will probably end up with some awful Stadler type concoction with doors in the centre of the coach. 175s are not perfect, but they could be a whole lot worse..

Hindsight is bad enough, but some foresight is equally as bad, if not worse. :roll:

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 175s (and 180s) became a bit of an orphan fleet after the demise of Alstom Washbrook Heath.
Without that closure, I wonder some of the subsequent Turbostar orders would have gone to them, and left a larger and more flexible fleet in the country?

Alstom still builds trains called "Coradia" for European operators.
That's not the same as being willing to build more vehicles of a 15-year-old design for the UK, of course.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...contract.html?sword_list[]=coradia&no_cache=1

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Loco and stock would indeed be nice to have, although to be fair to the North Wales service they're very busy too, and at the time they were introduced it was much easier to introduce them to that route than to South Wales. They did so initially without needing to train up any more traincrew, it fits neatly into a self contained diagram, and AFAIK there is only one station (Helsby) where the train doesn't fit so local door operation is required.

Travelled back from Man Pic yesterday on the loco-hauled 16h50, full and standing after Oxford Road until Earlstown, and then more standing passengers between Warrington and Chester. Fine along the North Wales Coast.