ATW 175s

[ValleyLines142]

I have to say that having done quite a few trips from Cardiff to Manchester over the last few months I have to express my concerns.

Whilst they are stylish, comfortable and quiet, the aircon always seems to be on cold and it can be freezing cold, even in the winter. The toilets aren't particularly pleasant and the units in general could do with a bit of a refresh. I also think that plug sockets are definitely needed for the length of journeys these units do.

South Wales to Manchester services in particular also have a problem whereby they do not have enough of a turnaround time upon arrival at Piccadilly. Whilst this isn't directly related to the 175s, it does mean that they are not being cleaned, including the toilets! The 175s do operate the majority of services on that route.

I've just come off the 2030 from Manchester and it srrived at 2013 off its previous journey. Although it had a 17 minute turnaround, the toilets weren't refreshed and the bins had not been changed, making the journey rather unpleasant.

I know the timetable can't be helped but it is an issue which I think needs addressing.

 

[Kyle1]

Personally i like the colder air-con setting, it's easier to deal with a train being cold than a train being too warm. My major gripe with the 175's is that for the services they operate, they should really have a first class section.

 

[headshot119]

The toilets are fairly nice on the 175s, that is if the public treat them with respect.

I find the year round consistent heat on them quite pleasant, as I always know what to expect.

Plug sockets will no doubt be fitted when the units go through the next refurb, which can't be fair away.

ATW trains are cleaned by a team of mobile cleaners, who will board the train at a station, walk through, do a litter pick, change the bins, clean the toilets, top anything up etc. This happens up and down the network, this method seems to work quite well, as it means the train doesn't need to wait till a terminus to be cleaned.

Personally i like the colder air-con setting, it's easier to deal with a train being cold than a train being too warm. My major gripe with the 175's is that for the services they operate, they should really have a first class section.

That would only work if they where a few coaches longer, or you'd lose out on a lot of much needed standard class seating capacity.

 

[All Line Rover]

they should really have a first class section.

And be four carriages! If anything, Manchester to Cardiff is a route more deserving of four coach trains with a least some first class accommodation, than Crewe to London via the Trent Valley. The only reason why the latter gets four coach trains (as a minimum) is because it serves London, but Manchester to Cardiff can hardly be described as a quiet route. Unlike Crewe to London, it is busy throughout, in both directions of travel, for the majority of the day, seven days a week.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Personally i like the colder air-con setting, it's easier to deal with a train being cold than a train being too warm. My major gripe with the 175's is that for the services they operate, they should really have a first class section.

I do too but this is on the other end of the scale. I had 175004 in both directions yesterday and it was BALTIC on board, so much so that I had two jumpers on and was still cold (and this is coming from someone who is always warm!)

The toilets are fairly nice on the 175s, that is if the public treat them with respect.

ATW trains are cleaned by a team of mobile cleaners, who will board the train at a station, walk through, do a litter pick, change the bins, clean the toilets, top anything up etc. This happens up and down the network, this method seems to work quite well, as it means the train doesn't need to wait till a terminus to be cleaned.

They can't have been on yesterday evening, as I didn't see anyone on board and also upon departure from Wilmslow which is a mere fifteen minutes after Piccadilly the toilet paper had ran out and there was no soap in the dispenser (luckily I had some hand sanitiser in my bag!)

That would only work if they where a few coaches longer, or you'd lose out on a lot of much needed standard class seating capacity.

I agree. I don't feel that First Class is needed on that route, and extra capacity is definitely needed. I also feel there was rather poor planning yesterday. The 0533/0537 departures to Milford Haven/Manchester respectively both come as a pair from Canton depot and split on the platform, with each unit obviously going their separate ways. 175004 formed the Manchester service whilst 175105 formed the Milford Haven service. It would have made much more sense for 175105 to have been on the Manchester section, which is much busier and also it would have worked the 2030 return which would have been much better considering there was rugby at Old Trafford last night (luckily we only caught the first few of the crowds; any later of a departure and we'd have had it!). I know it goes down the argument of the 2 car being at a busier period maybe down in West Wales and in general you can't win but I definitely would have put the 3 car on the Manchester first.

 

[PHILIPE]

Just wondering if the OP has brought this to the attention of ATW rather than just whinge on a Forum. Re the allocation of 2 Coach and 3 Coach 175s one has to consider the working through the whole day rather than individual trains. For example, the 175/1 which went to Milford Haven would probably have been very busy on it's way back to Manchester. It's a very fine balancing act.

 

[387star]

they were refurbished not long ago- new carpets and seat covers

 

[craigybagel]

As well as onboard cleaners there is meant to be a cleaner at Manchester Piccadilly. In ideal circumstances they travel to and from Stockport so have a good deal of time to clean the unit but lately they've been short staffed so this hasn't been an option. There should be an onboard cleaner also onboard between Shrewsbury and Ludlow and Newport and Cardiff during daylight hours, but again this is subject to staff availability. Longer turnarounds at Piccadilly would be nice but it would require extra stock and a recast of the timetable. In practice there is usually 20 minutes which should be ample.
There is a known issue with the aircon where even when the rest of the carriage is at the perfect temperature there are two points, about 10 feet in from each end if the carriage where cold air blasts out. If you move even one or two rows away it's usually a lot warmer. I would still take this over the notoriously unreliable aircon on 158s, or the non existent aircon on 150s!
The diagrams are very carefully worked out with the balance of 2 and 3 cars. On the Cardiff-Manchester run, so long as the correct units turn up for their diagrammed services, they actually cope with passanger loads very well. Problems only normally occur when shortages or disruption mean a 2 car unit ends up on a 3 car diagram. Some services have priority for 3 cars to minimise overcrowding when this happens. The other cause of overcrowding is special events, and sadly without additional stock there is little that can be done about that.
Yes the 175s have a few issues, and they're starting to show their age inside at times especially in terms of the lack of PowerPoints or wifi, but as a guard they're a dream to work compared to the rest of the fleet, and for a passenger it's still one of the most comfortable units out there.

 

[Greenback]

Just wondering if the OP has brought this to the attention of ATW rather than just whinge on a Forum. Re the allocation of 2 Coach and 3 Coach 175s one has to consider the working through the whole day rather than individual trains. For example, the 175/1 which went to Milford Haven would probably have been very busy on it's way back to Manchester. It's a very fine balancing act.

This is true. I do think Dan has a point about turn around times in Manchester, though. Obviously, there are many factors at play with that, pathing, platform availability, a lack of spare stock and so on, but the result is that there isn't time to clean the toilets or empty the bins. Having a mobile rubbish collector come through the train occasionally is more of a cosmetic exercise and is no substitute for a proper job being done at a terminus.

Still, with the constraints I outlined above, I don't think there is much, if anything, that can realistically be done.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is there any difference in basic design between the intermediate coaches of 175/1s and 180s? if there isn't would it be viable (and physically possible - emissions regs etc) to build new intermediate coaches to extended the 175s to maybe 4 or 5 car (installing ASDO/SDO if not already installed) and extending the 180s to 8 or 9 coaches?

 

[Greenback]

Even if it were possible, and I don't know the answer to that one, ATW don't like spending money if they don't have to.

 

[craigybagel]

Even if it were possible, and I don't know the answer to that one, ATW don't like spending money if they don't have to.

Along with every other TOC.

When the new franchise details are announced I'm sure there will be requests in it to deal with capacity issues. Hopefully rather than cobbling together bits of historically unreliable units we'll get something much more impressive like what has been announced for Anglia and Northern.

 

[Greenback]

The Cardiff to Manchester services can be very popular, and in my view they deserve four or five carriages rather than tow or three, with a small first class section.

I hope this is recognised in the new franchise.

 

[CosherB]

Is there any difference in basic design between the intermediate coaches of 175/1s and 180s? if there isn't would it be viable (and physically possible - emissions regs etc) to build new intermediate coaches to extended the 175s to maybe 4 or 5 car (installing ASDO/SDO if not already installed) and extending the 180s to 8 or 9 coaches?

I'd say the liklihood of building new intermediate carriages for the 175s is about zero.

Mixing 175s and 180s is likely to be problematic due to different power units and transmissions. I do seem to remember, however, a thread on here a couple of years ago that suggested just that that and, if I remember correctly, did appear to be well reasoned and seemed, superficially at least, feasible.

Maybe you can reform the 175s into 3 and 4 car units by shuffling centre cars around and running 2-car units in pairs. This still relies on procuring additional units to make up the new shortfall in numbers.

Maybe if LHCS is the new de rigueur then Arriva could build a fleet of cascaded AGA Mk3s post 2019 with their (ie DB) stored DVTs and Class 67s! Fat chance! hock:

 

[416GSi]

they were refurbished not long ago- new carpets and seat covers

I must have missed that.... They were given a light refresh about 5 years ago, i.e. new carpets and new seat covers. But these newish carpets and seat covers are starting to look somewhat tired and threadbare.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Just wondering if the OP has brought this to the attention of ATW rather than just whinge on a Forum. Re the allocation of 2 Coach and 3 Coach 175s one has to consider the working through the whole day rather than individual trains.

I find that the Twitter team don't particularly care.

For example, the 175/1 which went to Milford Haven would probably have been very busy on it's way back to Manchester. It's a very fine balancing act.

This is the point I made in my previous post, however I find the 175/1 wouldn't have been as busy as the almost full and standing 175/0. I agree it is a very fine balancing act but at the same time it is all about planning and organisation.

Yes the 175s have a few issues, and they're starting to show their age inside at times especially in terms of the lack of PowerPoints or wifi, but as a guard they're a dream to work compared to the rest of the fleet, and for a passenger it's still one of the most comfortable units out there.

Agreed. They are perfect for those journeys.

 

[JN114]

I find that the Twitter team don't particularly care.

What makes you say that? If ATW's social media is anything like ours then while they likely aren't personally interested, they will record and raise all feedback with the relevant parties.

This is the point I made in my previous post, however I find the 175/1 wouldn't have been as busy as the almost full and standing 175/0. I agree it is a very fine balancing act but at the same time it is all about planning and organisation.

And there's a lot of very highly paid and highly qualified people at ATW whose job it is to plan and allocate sets to the right services to achieve the very best utilisation for everyone across the day. That may involve some overcrowding at times but I'm fairly confident in their ability to provide the least-worst solution.

 

[ValleyLines142]

What makes you say that? If ATW's social media is anything like ours then while they likely aren't personally interested, they will record and raise all feedback with the relevant parties.

They would just come up with a fairly poor excuse, personally.

And there's a lot of very highly paid and highly qualified people at ATW whose job it is to plan and allocate sets to the right services to achieve the very best utilisation for everyone across the day. That may involve some overcrowding at times but I'm fairly confident in their ability to provide the least-worst solution.

Which I don't argue with and I'm sure they do an excellent job, but on this particular occasion the 175/1 should definitely have been allocated to Manchester first, unless there was a factor that completely hindered this procedure.

 

[craigybagel]

What makes you say that? If ATW's social media is anything like ours then while they likely aren't personally interested, they will record and raise all feedback with the relevant parties.

Correct. They're very good at passing on comments, good and bad, to the relevant management team.

And there's a lot of very highly paid and highly qualified people at ATW whose job it is to plan and allocate sets to the right services to achieve the very best utilisation for everyone across the day. That may involve some overcrowding at times but I'm fairly confident in their ability to provide the least-worst solution.

[/QUOTE]

Having spent a shift sitting beside the unit controllers I can definitely agree with that! Everything is done for a reason.

I've had passengers complain to me about being on a 3 car at 5am when there's noone on board and it seems a waste, when those same passengers have experienced our 2 car units in the rush hour. 2.5 hours later that same unit will have people standing on it as it arrives in Cardiff at the peak of the morning rush. 10 hours after that it's leaving Manchester on the busiest evening train of the day, again with people standing. As long as the diagrams are tied together from Manchester to West Wales and Cardiff to North Wales you're going to have these issues.

 

[JN114]

They would just come up with a fairly poor excuse, personally..

The response they give you is irrelevant - it's what they do with that information internally that makes a difference. We've reformed trains at timetable change based on direct feedback on social media.

Which I don't argue with and I'm sure they do an excellent job, but on this particular occasion the 175/1 should definitely have been allocated to Manchester first, unless there was a factor that completely hindered this procedure.

"Which you don't argue with but..." is an argument. Before I worked in my current role in the industry I used to think the same as you. There is *always* a much bigger picture in play than can be seen from the outside, or even frontline colleagues.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One advantage of merging 175s and 180s is that there's likely to be more 125mph diesel units than the network needs, and a shortage of high-quality 100mph regional diesel units. Considering the issues encountered with the introduction of both fleets though I can imagine the problems any attempt to combine them would create.

Unfortunately both fleets were ordered by First at a time when their policy was to make almost everything branded and pink/purple- so now there are still traces of First branding all over the 180s and 175s. As a result, the 175s and especially the GC 180s look more tired than perhaps they should (though present operators have their own share of blame for that).

 

[PHILIPE]

The Cardiff to Manchester services can be very popular, and in my view they deserve four or five carriages rather than tow or three, with a small first class section.

I hope this is recognised in the new franchise.

Would there be a call for first class ?

 

[Robertj21a]

Even if it were possible, and I don't know the answer to that one, ATW don't like spending money if they don't have to.

Presumably because any business case will fall down - in which case it's a sensible decision.

 

[Techniquest]

Would there be a call for first class ?

For the business passengers, yes. However, with 2 and 3 carriage trains this is impractical. Plus when a 150 subs for a 175 a First Class ticket would be pointless! I endured 150259 all the way to Manchester not long ago, thankfully 175104 took us home and the difference was astronomical.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, 175s are brilliant and one of the best things to happen to the Marches line for years. A shame that they're not all 3 coach sets but we have to live with that. Compared to a 170 these things are excellent, just a shame I can't have one on my trips to Worcester and Birmingham!

Power points in this day and age would be awesome on these units, especially since you get quite the amount of business travel between Manchester and Cardiff. More express trains would be nice too, yes we have some but not enough. I know it won't happen for various reasons, but I can dream!

 

[Llanigraham]

I find that the Twitter team don't particularly care.

There are various other methods for making a complaint!!
Email?
Written letter?

 

[ValleyLines142]

There are various other methods for making a complaint!!
Email?
Written letter?

I know how to make a complaint thank you

 

[Gareth Marston]

As a unit as built in the context of the time they were ordered (late 90's) there a 7.5/8 out of 10 unit. However they are a symbol of the problems of franchising being a small bespoke fleet being forced to do things that have moved on massively from where they were envisaged.

For a starter there non standard the curse of everyone doing there own thing so moving them round the system from where they were originally intended is problematical. Witness the pages of discussion on the larger 185 fleet and then think of TPe LhCS sets, Northern CAF DMU's and East Anglian bi modes that are being built.

secondly the no growth 15 year franchise that they were moved en masse too has not behaved how the clever people at the SRA predicted. There 2/3 car units on diagrams that should be 4/5 as Greenback says.

Any bidder worth their salt given current franchise awards is going to go for growth on the main moneymakers in the new Wales and Border franchise which are Chester to Manchester, Shrewsbury to Birmingham and Manchester to Cardif. the former are to have enhanced competition from other franchise awards so it's a no brainier that Manchester to Cardiff will get new stock and 175's will be cascaded elsewhere. North Wales and Marches Class 2 services beckon for them.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Which you don't argue with but..." is an argument. Before I worked in my current role in the industry I used to think the same as you. There is *always* a much bigger picture in play than can be seen from the outside, or even frontline colleagues.

It isn't, because I'm agreeing that the planning team do do a good job.

 

[Mordac]

For the business passengers, yes. However, with 2 and 3 carriage trains this is impractical. Plus when a 150 subs for a 175 a First Class ticket would be pointless! I endured 150259 all the way to Manchester not long ago, thankfully 175104 took us home and the difference was astronomical.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, 175s are brilliant and one of the best things to happen to the Marches line for years. A shame that they're not all 3 coach sets but we have to live with that. Compared to a 170 these things are excellent, just a shame I can't have one on my trips to Worcester and Birmingham!

Power points in this day and age would be awesome on these units, especially since you get quite the amount of business travel between Manchester and Cardiff. More express trains would be nice too, yes we have some but not enough. I know it won't happen for various reasons, but I can dream!

Only been on the Marches line once (well twice, once both ways) and really have to agree with this. I was really impressed with the 175s, second only to the 185s DMU wise IMHO (never been on a 180 though).

 

[RobShipway]

Admittedly, it was a few years ago but I have been on both a class 175 and class 180, both of which are very quiet in running compared to the Voyagers.

It is a shame that the GWR 180's will be going to Grand Central after they are replaced by class 800 trains, as I think they would be good on both the Marches line and on the North Wales Coast route to Holyhead from Manchester & Liverpool doing express services.