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Attitudes to ticketless travel

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Watershed

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Well, they *could* prosecute the person for having trespassed?
Perhaps that's more along the lines of what they said. Still, a prosecution for trespass really wouldn't result in a very severe penalty; obviously the trespass isn't central to this video, but in other instances it's quite foreseeable that the ad revenue from keeping the video up would be more than any fine.
 
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Haywain

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Perhaps that's more along the lines of what they said. Still, a prosecution for trespass really wouldn't result in a very severe penalty; obviously the trespass isn't central to this video, but in other instances it's quite foreseeable that the ad revenue from keeping the video up would be more than any fine.
Yes, but there's the hassle factor and the fact that the police might look further and find more.
 

philthetube

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I've reported the video now, but as you said I highly doubt youtube will do anything
I tried to report Graffiti on trains as I feel it to be glorifying a criminal act, there is no category to report crimes in their drop down list and I got no response from them. There should be an option for YouTube to be prosecuted in these cases
 

Watershed

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I tried to report Graffiti on trains as I feel it to be glorifying a criminal act, there is no category to report crimes in their drop down list and I got no response from them. There should be an option for YouTube to be prosecuted in these cases
It's not a crime to host videos which some may perceive as glorifying criminal acts, and it certainly shouldn't be.
 

trainophile

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Strange notice posted on a TfW station gateline wall today, not sure if serious or in jest. Didn't have time to photo it as there was a hoard of students waiting to exit behind me and another hoard coming through, but it read something like:

"Season ticket holders must have a valid ticket for this station. Anyone who doesn't have this will be returned to their station of origin".

It made me wonder about the threat to "return to station of origin". Is that ever done? And if so is the errant person charged for a ticket back there? Would be the height of vexation to have travelled any distance, arrive at your destination, only to be put on another train back to where you started from. Deportation on the railways!
 

XAM2175

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It made me wonder about the threat to "return to station of origin". Is that ever done? And if so is the errant person charged for a ticket back there? Would be the height of vexation to have travelled any distance, arrive at your destination, only to be put on another train back to where you started from. Deportation on the railways!
No. It's obviously completely groundless.
 

Birmingham

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MP for Birmingham Selly Oak Steve McCabe tweeted their experience of being issued a Penalty Fare on West Midlands Railway today.

Steve McCabe [@steve_mccabe]
2:03 PM, Oct 10, 2022

Caught a West Midlands Railways train at Bournville. Arrived at platform same time as me. BE WARNED Before travelling with country’s worst operators go online& read lengthy terms & conditions. If you board without a ticket you can’t buy one. Automatic £20fine
 

RPI

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MP for Birmingham Selly Oak Steve McCabe tweeted their experience of being issued a Penalty Fare on West Midlands Railway today.
I'm not sure a yellow "warning, have you paid?" Sign that would have been applicable to Bourneville since about 1994 qualifies as lengthy terms and conditions . The biggest shock is any form of Revenue enforcement on the cross city line!

I just went to look at the tweet and see that someone has replied with a picture of all the PF signs at Bournville
 
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Kite159

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MP for Birmingham Selly Oak Steve McCabe tweeted their experience of being issued a Penalty Fare on West Midlands Railway today.
From what it sounds like he arrived at the station at the same time as the train, so decided to jump on the train instead of buying a ticket.

Although I noticed some of the replies say "buy from Five Ways to save money", until there is a revenue block at New Street set to reject any tickets from Five Ways for further investigation (mainly checking to see if they show an entry scan & the time they were purchased).
 

AlterEgo

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From what it sounds like he arrived at the station at the same time as the train, so decided to jump on the train instead of buying a ticket.

Although I noticed some of the replies say "buy from Five Ways to save money", until there is a revenue block at New Street set to reject any tickets from Five Ways for further investigation (mainly checking to see if they show an entry scan & the time they were purchased).
And of course the requisite data access request after the fact which will capture how many times someone has done it. Not a wise choice!
 

spag23

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From this and other threads, it seems that many people [wrongly] consider that the imminent departure of a train overrides the need to buy a ticket before boarding. Justifiable, perhaps, only if it's the last train of the day.
 

mangyiscute

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From this and other threads, it seems that many people [wrongly] consider that the imminent departure of a train overrides the need to buy a ticket before boarding. Justifiable, perhaps, only if it's the last train of the day.
For me this isn't as clear cut as you seem to make it. If there is a 10 minute wait for the next train, then sure, waiting for the next train is fine. But if it's an hour or longer wait, I think that we should allow people on the train, and personally, I would like to see them purchase a ticket on their phone and then the ticket inspector or whoever can check this, and perhaps it is purchased 3 mins after the train left but thats fine. If it was me personally, I would go up to the train manager and ensure that it is ok for me to board without a ticket and tell them that I would buy a ticket on my phone as soon as I can (or in one case, I wanted a day ranger so i specifically asked them to come up to me and sell me the ticket once the train had left)
 

Chriso

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I'm not sure a yellow "warning, have you paid?" Sign that would have been applicable to Bourneville since about 1994 qualifies as lengthy terms and conditions . The biggest shock is any form of Revenue enforcement on the cross city line!

I just went to look at the tweet and see that someone has replied with a picture of all the PF signs at Bournville

This made me chuckle the cross city has always been a revenue black hole

This MCCabe fella comes across as a bit of a tool tbh why would he even tweet this. Just makes him look an idiot
 

spag23

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For me this isn't as clear cut as you seem to make it. If there is a 10 minute wait for the next train, then sure, waiting for the next train is fine. But if it's an hour or longer wait, I think that we should allow people on the train, and personally, I would like to see them purchase a ticket on their phone and then the ticket inspector or whoever can check this, and perhaps it is purchased 3 mins after the train left but thats fine. If it was me personally, I would go up to the train manager and ensure that it is ok for me to board without a ticket and tell them that I would buy a ticket on my phone as soon as I can (or in one case, I wanted a day ranger so i specifically asked them to come up to me and sell me the ticket once the train had left)
This seems eminently sensible. But no use on my line (Thameslink), where your first encounter would be with an RPI or at the destination. But at my TL station, the trains do usually arrive every 10 minutes! I'm sure that others will say that if you know it's an hourly service, you should buy a ticket in advance, or aim to turn up well in advance.
 

nw1

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This made me chuckle the cross city has always been a revenue black hole

This MCCabe fella comes across as a bit of a tool tbh why would he even tweet this. Just makes him look an idiot

Not sure it does. Morally (though not legally) I would in theory consider it acceptable to jump on a train and go straight to the guard to buy a ticket. However I wouldn't actually do this (or recommend others do it) because of the risk of a PF or even a court appearance, but morally I would consider it OK because the fact you then go straight to the guard means you're clearly not intending to avoid payment.
 
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Jim the Jim

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For me this isn't as clear cut as you seem to make it. If there is a 10 minute wait for the next train, then sure, waiting for the next train is fine. But if it's an hour or longer wait, I think that we should allow people on the train, and personally, I would like to see them purchase a ticket on their phone and then the ticket inspector or whoever can check this, and perhaps it is purchased 3 mins after the train left but thats fine. If it was me personally, I would go up to the train manager and ensure that it is ok for me to board without a ticket and tell them that I would buy a ticket on my phone as soon as I can (or in one case, I wanted a day ranger so i specifically asked them to come up to me and sell me the ticket once the train had left)
If you're planning to catch a train that only leaves hourly, you should ensure your plans give you time to buy a ticket before you get on. Especially with etickets where you don't even have the excuse of needing to queue at the station!
 

Haywain

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Not sure it does. Morally (though not legally) I would in theory consider it acceptable to jump on a train and go straight to the guard to buy a ticket. However I wouldn't actually do this (or recommend others do it) because of the risk of a PF or even a court appearance, but morally I would consider it OK because the fact you then go straight to the guard means you're clearly not intending to avoid payment.
It's the fuss he's making that makes him look a bit of an idiot. Tweeting about it in the way he has conveys a strong 'look at me' type of attitude.
 

godfreycomplex

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Why do so many people think ticketless travel isn’t a “proper” form of theft?
I don’t tend to frequent this part of the forum because of the reasons I outlined below but you’ve asked the question so I’ll answer as best I can based on my own beliefs. Love and respect if those contrast to anyone reading

My view is not so much that ticketless travel isn’t a “proper” form of theft, although I’m not actively trying to bring down the capitalist system I believe in the idea in society before capital, therefore my interest is in the happiness and satisfaction of everyone in my society, and I don’t believe people not necessarily paying for their tickets impacts that. Whilst I do always pay my fares myself (due primarily to anxiety about being caught and the consequences thereof) I believe in the railway as a service to society, and fundamentally I believe the cost should be met by society.

How could I be annoyed at someone doing something to abstract money from a system that I don’t believe should be there in the form that it is (IE the revenue system and privatisation more generally)? That wouldn’t make sense

Also for my own mental health and happiness I am really, really trying to not project my expectations of others’ behaviour onto them, they have contexts around their own lives that within the prison of my own consciousness I will never hope to understand. This is a work in progress, sure, but starting to make a big difference to my own happiness, as I can focus on helping other people in society to live their lives, not what I expect their lives should be.

HTH, all the best
 
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Bletchleyite

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Ticketless travel isn't theft, as for a theft offence to be complete there has to be something taken with the intent to permanently deprive. The latter requirement is why there's a specific offence of TWOC - "Taking a motor vehicle WithOut Consent", as people were getting away with it on the basis of "but I was only borrowing it mate" so an intent to permanently deprive couldn't be proven, and why railway ticketing offences have their own laws - if they didn't, it would just be a civil debt.

Software piracy, despite the campaigns of various industry groups, isn't theft either - it is an offence of copyright infringement.

To me it morally sits in a similar space, but it isn't *quite* the same.
 

philthetube

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Not sure it does. Morally (though not legally) I would in theory consider it acceptable to jump on a train and go straight to the guard to buy a ticket. However I wouldn't actually do this (or recommend others do it) because of the risk of a PF or even a court appearance, but morally I would consider it OK because the fact you then go straight to the guard means you're clearly not intending to avoid payment.
I have seen the guard before boarding and asked but would not risk boarding without.
 

WesternLancer

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If you're planning to catch a train that only leaves hourly, you should ensure your plans give you time to buy a ticket before you get on. Especially with etickets where you don't even have the excuse of needing to queue at the station!
Indeed. Or just use your car instead - which is what the avg person thinks - ie the structures / ticketing systems / sanctions etc are not really customer focussed if you want to actively make it easy for people to buy your service (aka travel by train). This is the problem.
 
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nw1

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I have seen the guard before boarding and asked but would not risk boarding without.

Yes, I've done that admittedly, asked the guard before boarding.

On a related point, what would be the correct course of action if there was only a Permit to Travel machine on a station (they still exist, Beaulieu Road has one) which took only cash? Given that many people don't necessarily carry cash these days, would it be acceptable in that case to jump on the train and see the guard?

In my case (the other day) it was a non-issue as the PTT machine was broken in any case. I had the princely sum of 5p cash on me. :)
 

trainophile

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If you're planning to catch a train that only leaves hourly, you should ensure your plans give you time to buy a ticket before you get on. Especially with etickets where you don't even have the excuse of needing to queue at the station!
It's not always that simple. Some people, me included, travel to the station by bus, which in my case runs once an hour, and if it is delayed in traffic can arrive minutes before the train departs, usually from the platform over the bridge. Should I make my plans to involve getting a bus an hour earlier, and hanging around the station for over an hour, as when it arrives on time that would be the situation?

I always book and collect my tickets in advance, but not everyone knows what their plans will be far enough ahead to do that.

The only issue with the proposal given is that you might get into the habit of buying on the train, and find that this isn't possible with some operators, e.g. Merseyrail.
 

WesternLancer

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Just overheard a colleague at work talking to another staff member as they left for the station "Just realised I haven't got a train ticket today, they never came round this morning" (both responsible people and well paid)

It's supposedly a PF route. Obv ticket sales on board considered the norm. Station has an ungated exit.
 

35B

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I don’t tend to frequent this part of the forum because of the reasons I outlined below but you’ve asked the question so I’ll answer as best I can based on my own beliefs. Love and respect if those contrast to anyone reading

My view is not so much that ticketless travel isn’t a “proper” form of theft, although I’m not actively trying to bring down the capitalist system I believe in the idea in society before capital, therefore my interest is in the happiness and satisfaction of everyone in my society, and I don’t believe people not necessarily paying for their tickets impacts that. Whilst I do always pay my fares myself (due primarily to anxiety about being caught and the consequences thereof) I believe in the railway as a service to society, and fundamentally I believe the cost should be met by society.

How could I be annoyed at someone doing something to abstract money from a system that I don’t believe should be there in the form that it is (IE the revenue system and privatisation more generally)? That wouldn’t make sense

Also for my own mental health and happiness I am really, really trying to not project my expectations of others’ behaviour onto them, they have contexts around their own lives that within the prison of my own consciousness I will never hope to understand. This is a work in progress, sure, but starting to make a big difference to my own happiness, as I can focus on helping other people in society to live their lives, not what I expect their lives should be.

HTH, all the best
Accepting for the sake of argument your view of how the railway should be funded, but acknowledging that society (through elected governments) has chosen to position the cost of travel as a mixture of tax funded and individually paid, my reaction is that by refusing to pay a fare, an individual is taking money from all taxpayers by requiring them the contribute more to the cost of running that service than they otherwise would. As such, and at a moral rather than legal level, travelling without payment is both anti-social (by refusing to abide by that social bargain) and a form of theft (by requiring all taxpayers to pay more to offset the contribution to running the railways that has been foregone).

Expanding that point somewhat, my view is that the provision of public transport services is a public good, so entirely worthy of taxpayer support, but that the use of that service is a private good, and one that individuals should pay for based on the benefit to themselves. This applies to all modes of transport, not just rail, and is I believe distorted by the way that we focus on fares as the cost of travel and disregard the similar trade-off for car use between government provision (the roads we drive on) and personal cost (the vehicles we use, the fuel we use to run them).
 

stj

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I know of people who go even further to avoid proper payment by buying the cheapest ticket available with a railcard to get through the barriers then board a packed train with no chance of a check and alight at an unstaffed station.
 
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