Attitudes to ticketless travel

[WesternLancer]

There has long been an attitude of "if it's the state, they deserve to be fleeced". It couldn't be more wrong when you think of it but nonetheless it has become a sort of urban myth. Railways, government and so on, "but it doesn't matter "cause they can afford it and I pay my taxes", and yet as the OP points out they would never "nick from a shop, mates or family etc. I admit I haven't been immunised to it myself in the past either. I have often heard people being questioned at various stations trotting out the "I`m an honest bloke or girl" line when collared.
I have met many decent enough people myself who have this attitude so it's not about being a bad person so to speak. More or a "follow the crowd" type of response.

Very well put I think.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I remember earlier years travelling in South London where I would arrive at a station to be greeted by someone selling a (used) Capitalcard/Travelcard at a "discounted rate" that they didn't need any more

Not sure if this practice still exists as paper Travelcards sold within London are probably less common now with the widespread use of Oyster.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I remember earlier years travelling in South London where I would arrive at a station to be greeted by someone selling a (used) Capitalcard/Travelcard at a "discounted rate" that they didn't need any more

Not sure if this practice still exists as paper Travelcards sold within London are probably less common now with the widespread use of Oyster.

Used to be loads of shady looking folk attempting this at the top of the escalators coming up from, or going down to, Euston Underground station, back in the day (1990s).

 

[Tallguy]

I remember earlier years travelling in South London where I would arrive at a station to be greeted by someone selling a (used) Capitalcard/Travelcard at a "discounted rate" that they didn't need any more

Not sure if this practice still exists as paper Travelcards sold within London are probably less common now with the widespread use of Oyster.

Still happens at Hounslow West. Same guy for years asking for your travel card then trying to re-sell it.

 

[ticketbuyer]

The way passengers are treated by the railways is an absolute joke and in my opinion some of the defences of that system on here is emblematic of how detached the passengers are from the people who run the railways. The passengers are all too often treated like criminals for things that in other areas of society would rightly not be treated that way. Let me just say that fare dodgers i.e. people actively trying to defraud the railway, should be prosecuted. The issue is how every day, good people are treated for misjudgments, misunderstandings, and mistakes. The bar is set so high in rail.

The often used "shoplifting" comparison doesn't work for me. If an honest person went in to a shop, scanned their items and paid, and then realised they had forgotten to scan their Mars bar then that person would simply say sorry I forgot and they would pay. They wouldn't be threatened with legal action and all of the stress, cost, and mental strain that causes. Yet on the railways, you accidentally let your railcard expire and suddenly you could find yourself in court.

This isn't something that just happens to the odd person. I've seen it and experienced myself many times over in Manchester, particularly by the Northern Rail staff who in my experience are awful to deal with and treat you like you're a criminal even when you do have a ticket. I used to find myself walking to the end of Piccadilly to exit the far platform just so I didn't have to be anywhere near the Northern staff.

Student taken to court over 60 pence https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...er-news/student-faced-600-fine-after-15409212
A couple who honestly expected to be able to pay on the train fined https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...n-rail-tickets-manchester-piccadilly-14999015
Someone else fined for not being able to pay on the train despite evidence of always paying their fare https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ster-news/train-ticket-fine-pay-rail-12476799
Taken to court 3 times over an honest mistake worth 50p https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...news/commuter-finally-cleared-over-50p-861691

I myself have been fined for:
Buying a ticket on an expired railcard without realising the railcard option was set and it being my first journey in months post covid, travelling at a time I expected wasn't even applicable for railcard prices anyway, and for a cost difference of 20p. I can assure you that those were not intentional actions.
Also for buying a ticket from Manchester Airport to Manchester but realising at Manchester that I had purchased it the other way around. Exactly the same journey and price. Fined.

So as you can tell I hold a certain disdain for how passengers are treated by the railways and they have far too much power, despite the understandable challenge of actual fare dodgers.

 

[superkopite]

The way passengers are treated by the railways is an absolute joke and in my opinion some of the defences of that system on here is emblematic of how detached the passengers are from the people who run the railways. The passengers are all too often treated like criminals for things that in other areas of society would rightly not be treated that way. Let me just say that fare dodgers i.e. people actively trying to defraud the railway, should be prosecuted. The issue is how every day, good people are treated for misjudgments, misunderstandings, and mistakes. The bar is set so high in rail.

The often used "shoplifting" comparison doesn't work for me. If an honest person went in to a shop, scanned their items and paid, and then realised they had forgotten to scan their Mars bar then that person would simply say sorry I forgot and they would pay. They wouldn't be threatened with legal action and all of the stress, cost, and mental strain that causes. Yet on the railways, you accidentally let your railcard expire and suddenly you could find yourself in court.

This isn't something that just happens to the odd person. I've seen it and experienced myself many times over in Manchester, particularly by the Northern Rail staff who in my experience are awful to deal with and treat you like you're a criminal even when you do have a ticket. I used to find myself walking to the end of Piccadilly to exit the far platform just so I didn't have to be anywhere near the Northern staff.

Student taken to court over 60 pence https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...er-news/student-faced-600-fine-after-15409212
A couple who honestly expected to be able to pay on the train fined https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...n-rail-tickets-manchester-piccadilly-14999015
Someone else fined for not being able to pay on the train despite evidence of always paying their fare https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ster-news/train-ticket-fine-pay-rail-12476799
Taken to court 3 times over an honest mistake worth 50p https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...news/commuter-finally-cleared-over-50p-861691

I myself have been fined for:
Buying a ticket on an expired railcard without realising the railcard option was set and it being my first journey in months post covid, travelling at a time I expected wasn't even applicable for railcard prices anyway, and for a cost difference of 20p. I can assure you that those were not intentional actions.
Also for buying a ticket from Manchester Airport to Manchester but realising at Manchester that I had purchased it the other way around. Exactly the same journey and price. Fined.

So as you can tell I hold a certain disdain for how passengers are treated by the railways and they have far too much power, despite the understandable challenge of actual fare dodgers.

I entirely agree with your points

I would add that there are not many walks of life where something as unintentional as losing your ticket can, and often does, land you in court.

 

[nanstallon]

I entirely agree with your points

I would add that there are not many walks of life where something as unintentional as losing your ticket can, and often does, land you in court.

In any sensible system, if you lost your ticket, you would be allowed to show that you had paid, e.g. credit card receipt. OK, it is possible that he had bought a ticket and then given it to someone else to use, but hardly likely. Everything is assumed against the customer; as I have said before, there are surely no other industries that are so hostile to their customers. Possibly the police!

 

[AlterEgo]

In any sensible system, if you lost your ticket, you would be allowed to show that you had paid, e.g. credit card receipt. OK, it is possible that he had bought a ticket and then given it to someone else to use, but hardly likely.

Why even issue tickets at all?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why even issue tickets at all?

If we had ID cards there'd be no need at least for Advances. Just the name would do.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Why even issue tickets at all?

I nearly said this a few posts up. Just have a type of Permit to Travel

 

[nanstallon]

Why even issue tickets at all?

I'd rather have a paper/ card ticket than rely on the phone, which could fail because of battery exhaustion or no signal.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd rather have a paper/ card ticket than rely on the phone, which could fail because of battery exhaustion or no signal.

Yeah but why issue them at all, if as you suggest someone with a proof of purchase should be accepted for travel without question?

 

[Haywain]

Yeah but why issue them at all, if as you suggest someone with a proof of purchase should be accepted for travel without question?

Well, that proof of payment might be on a phone...

 

[XAM2175]

In any sensible system, if you lost your ticket, you would be allowed to show that you had paid, e.g. credit card receipt. OK, it is possible that he had bought a ticket and then given it to someone else to use, but hardly likely.

I can assure you that it would become a lot more likely as soon as word got out that it was possible!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yeah but why issue them at all, if as you suggest someone with a proof of purchase should be accepted for travel without question?

I'm not sure someone should be accepted "without question". However there seems to be a particular attitude on the railways that everyone is a cad and a chancer and the big stick gets wielded out for everything.

I'd have no issue with the railways taking people's details and looking at their records. That way the honest get "let off" and there's proper evidence to clobber the dishonest who've "lost" ten tickets this month.

Maybe I'm naive, but most people are mostly honest.

County Lines was mentioned further up. Let's be honest, the drug dealers and real scrotes are telling the security to go forth and multiply with fists flailing and, oddly enough, the security back down rather than get beaten up (not that I blame them).

I've seen it in Newcastle on the Metro far too much. The RPIs aren't interested in the scrotes climbing over the wall at North Shields because we all know they'll get violent, but they're all over the students who forget to tap in at West Jesmond in Freshers Week like a dose of the clap.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I've seen it in Newcastle on the Metro far too much. The RPIs aren't interested in the scrotes climbing over the wall at North Shields because we all know they'll get violent, but they're all over the students who forget to tap in at West Jesmond in Freshers Week like a dose of the clap

Alternatively, students who are new to the Metro are taught at an early stage that it is important to comply, and they spend the rest of their student career paying the right fare.

If that's the case, that's actually good enforcement rather than victimising the newbies.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Alternatively, students who are new to the Metro are taught at an early stage that it is important to comply, and they spend the rest of their student career paying the right fare.

I'm sure that is how targeting the low-hanging fruit is justified. Short, sharp shocks and all that.

I just find it rather distasteful how they're all over the low-hanging fruit who won't fight back but, when it comes to the real scrotes who cause most of the problems on Metro, they're conspicuous by their absence.

I've seen more revenue blocks at West Jesmond than, say, Shiremoor or Meadowell. It makes sense to go where the fishing is easiest, I know, but it leaves a sour taste in the mouth.

 

[L401CJF]

At the same time, the people you treat as honest are often the ones who aren't.

So many times I've scanned tickets pre 10am with a 16-25 railcard for example who have paid less than the £12 minimum fare. They seem genuine so I give them some slack and explain the £12 rule, and tell them not just to pick the "cheapest fare" option on their app. (Usually trainline). "Oh I'm so sorry I didn't realise". OK then I'll let you off don't do it again!

A few days later you'll pick up the same person doing the same thing, and they suddenly don't become so friendly or act as innocent.

 

[nanstallon]

I'm not sure someone should be accepted "without question". However there seems to be a particular attitude on the railways that everyone is a cad and a chancer and the big stick gets wielded out for everything.

I'd have no issue with the railways taking people's details and looking at their records. That way the honest get "let off" and there's proper evidence to clobber the dishonest who've "lost" ten tickets this month.

Maybe I'm naive, but most people are mostly honest.

County Lines was mentioned further up. Let's be honest, the drug dealers and real scrotes are telling the security to go forth and multiply with fists flailing and, oddly enough, the security back down rather than get beaten up (not that I blame them).

I've seen it in Newcastle on the Metro far too much. The RPIs aren't interested in the scrotes climbing over the wall at North Shields because we all know they'll get violent, but they're all over the students who forget to tap in at West Jesmond in Freshers Week like a dose of the clap.

That's Britain for you. Violence pays.

 

[mangyiscute]

I see you've said that most people are honest, when reading this section of the forum out of the people who have been caught you see very few people who have accidentally had an invalid ticket and many more people who have deliberately tried to fare evade. I think that since the railways do have so many more people fare evade it does have to be a bit more harsh. I've seen one person trying to shoplift ever in my life, but I probably see someone on a train fare evading at least once per month, and I probably go in more shops than go on trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think I would say most people are casually dishonest when it comes to a "victimless" (quotes deliberate) minor crime where the chance of being caught is small, e.g. casual fare evasion. Which is why gatelines work so well even if staffed by people who have no way of dealing with them bar pointing at a TVM and asking them to pay.

It is a bit like most drivers speed, albeit mostly not to massive excess. That is almost every driver will have done 80 on a motorway at some point whether deliberately or by their speed having crept up without them noticing, but relatively few will have done 100+.

 

[mangyiscute]

I think I would say most people are casually dishonest when it comes to a "victimless" (quotes deliberate) minor crime where the chance of being caught is small, e.g. casual fare evasion.

I'd be interested to hear the stats of how many people steal stuff from supermarket self checkouts

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be interested to hear the stats of how many people steal stuff from supermarket self checkouts

I reckon misrepresentation is quite high - actually nicking something might get found out, but lying about what it is when buying loose produce and claiming to have pressed the wrong button is far less likely to be, and if it was probably not treated as theft unless someone did it too often.

I have noticed that my local Tesco Express has turned off the function to weigh produce on the self service till and suspect this casual dishonesty is likely to be the reason.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

I'd be interested to hear the stats of how many people steal stuff from supermarket self checkouts

The well known one was to buy expensive fruit and veg by claiming it was carrots which are cheap.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The well known one was to buy expensive fruit and veg by claiming it was carrots which are cheap.

Like avocados, for example? Seem to remember there was a story a few years ago about some supermarket that had apparently sold many, many more kgs of carrots than it had ever had in stock.

Attempting to drag the thread back on topic, wonder what number of low value tickets supposedly get sold for journeys from, for example, Burley Park to Leeds, or from Wembley Stadium to London Marylebone, in an attempt to exit the barriers?

(Not sure if the latter dodge still works any more, given the number of folk - using such tickets - appearing as New Members in the "Disputes and Prosecutions" sub thread!)

 

[skyhigh]

Attempting to drag the thread back on topic, wonder what number of low value tickets supposedly get sold for journeys from, for example, Burley Park to Leeds, or from Wembley Stadium to London Marylebone, in an attempt to exit the barriers?

Enough that I know there are discussions going on in the background about what can be done to prevent it. I know of a TOC that is testing a standalone e-ticket validator (e.g. a bit like the scanners on barriers that read e-tickets but just on a post a bit like existing Oyster/smartcard validators). Obviously as it stands there is no requirement to validate an e-ticket before travel, but if the NRCoT could be altered to enforce pre-departure scans that would go a long way to wiping out short-faring and doughnutting. It would also have an impact on splitting though...

 

[jon0844]

Enough that I know there are discussions going on in the background about what can be done to prevent it. I know of a TOC that is testing a standalone e-ticket validator (e.g. a bit like the scanners on barriers that read e-tickets but just on a post a bit like existing Oyster/smartcard validators). Obviously as it stands there is no requirement to validate an e-ticket before travel, but if the NRCoT could be altered to enforce pre-departure scans that would go a long way to wiping out short-faring and doughnutting. It would also have an impact on splitting though...

I thought that the ITSO cards came with a rule that you must always tap in and out (which for people with seasons often doesn't happen, and currently no harm will be done). Given the huge problem of short faring*, I would think it sensible to make it a requirement to tap in or out, even with a season, so you can't so easily buy two short tickets. As I've said before, TOCs will one day likely look at purchase histories for people who are habitually buying two tickets with a gap (and looking for non-taps as well as the time between the two taps) but changing the T&Cs or properly enforcing - and doing the same for e-tickets - would be the way forward.

To do that effectively, you'd certainly need more validators to give people a chance.

As for splitting, you'd have no trouble here as if asked for more information - you'd be able to present the necessary tickets to satisfy any inspection.

(* It's ironic that you only need to be caught once, perhaps after months or years of getting away with it, for every offence to be shown up - making it an incredibly risky thing to do).

 

[Chew Chew]

Like avocados, for example? Seem to remember there was a story a few years ago about some supermarket that had apparently sold many, many more kgs of carrots than it had ever had in stock.

Attempting to drag the thread back on topic, wonder what number of low value tickets supposedly get sold for journeys from, for example, Burley Park to Leeds, or from Wembley Stadium to London Marylebone, in an attempt to exit the barriers?

(Not sure if the latter dodge still works any more, given the number of folk - using such tickets - appearing as New Members in the "Disputes and Prosecutions" sub thread!)

IIRC the year after Glasgow Queen Street was barriered the number of tickets sold to/ from Bishopbriggs increased by 300k!

 

[Statto]

Used to be loads of shady looking folk attempting this at the top of the escalators coming up from, or going down to, Euston Underground station, back in the day (1990s).

Seen this happen in the arrivals hall at Victoria Coach Station a few times too.

 

[Turtle]

Seen this happen in the arrivals hall at Victoria Coach Station a few times too.

And at Kings Cross and Victoria Underground as well.