Attaching; detaching or moving trains. What's more dangerous?

[Tio Terry]

Trains regularly attach and detach at Purley. There's usually a PA warning to stand clear but the trains will have passengers in them. Attaching is more dangerous than detaching because you, in effect, have to drive one train into the other.

My experience in other places - especially Waterloo - is that they don't attach with passengers on-board. You are told to wait and stand clear on the platform whilst the attachment is made.

 

[fowler9]

It is just fear of litigation, pure and simple. How many trains coupling up have injured people over the years do you reckon? Next to none I would guess. How may claims have gone in over the years, loads. Before "where there's blame there's a claim" came about trains coupled up several times an hour in every major station.

 

[Clip]

Its the most regular thing to ever happen at Faversham to be honest some drivers are pretty good at it and you hardly feel a thing when they rear end you..

 

[Hadders]

But surely there's more risk if you make everyone get off, then get back on again. Especially as trains can couple up mid journey and continue as a longer train through to the destination.

All the pushing and shoving as everyone gets off (with their luggage) onoy to get back on again a few seconds later would be farcical and delay the coupling process by several minutes.

 

[A-driver]

Its the most regular thing to ever happen at Faversham to be honest some drivers are pretty good at it and you hardly feel a thing when they rear end you..

It's not so much a case of how good they are at it, it's down to the units. 377s etc used at daversgam have seller couplings so only need to be kissed together lightly. Tight lock couplers, especially on a curve or gradient, can need quite a bash and a few attempts to engage properly. If you are too gentle it will keep bouncing back off.

 

[edwin_m]

Is this a recent thing. I spent my formative years in the 70's, 80's and 90's with locos coupling up to trains while everyone was on board. I can't recall any serious injuries, or indeed any injuries at all. Are the autocouplers on multiple units more dangerous?

In one way yes they are. A skilled driver and shunter working together could bring a loco onto a train so the buffers were just compressed, then hook the screw coupling over and tighten it up, all without significant impact. Whereas, as mentioned, the Tightlock in particular doesn't seem to couple reliably unless brought together with a certain amount of wallop.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Last time i was on a train that coupled up to another was years ago. I think the guard closed the external doors and made an announcement warning everyone that the train was about to couple up to another train.

 

[unlevel42]

The 10:07 XC from Manchester Piccadilly treminating at 13:10 in Bristol Temple Meads joins up with the XC 11:25 from Plymouth to become 13:30 departure for Dundee.

Passengers are not usually allowed to board the front portion (ex Manchester) until both trains are coupled even though it arrives first and does not move until departure. The bit from Plymouth detrains its Bristol passengers and then is brought up to couple. (my post Nov 2012)

Although the timings are now slightly changed it appears on RT that a similar situation still exists at platform 3.

 

[fowler9]

In one way yes they are. A skilled driver and shunter working together could bring a loco onto a train so the buffers were just compressed, then hook the screw coupling over and tighten it up, all without significant impact. Whereas, as mentioned, the Tightlock in particular doesn't seem to couple reliably unless brought together with a certain amount of wallop.

Cheers mate. Interesting info. Despite my comments about litigation I thought some of the coupling movements I've seen at Lime Street seem a little more vigorous than when locos used to couple up to coaches. (Gosh that sounded dodgy, ha ha).

 

[DownSouth]

I dread to think of the chaos that would happen if passengers had to get off and get back on when trains coupled. Places like Cambridge and Haywards heath would be a nightmare.

It could have one positive effect - convincing people that good connections can actually be better than every little village getting their one 'direct' train to London each day. If you're going to get off and on again, why not do it onto a different train instead of the same one?

But surely there's more risk if you make everyone get off, then get back on again. Especially as trains can couple up mid journey and continue as a longer train through to the destination.

All the pushing and shoving as everyone gets off (with their luggage) onoy to get back on again a few seconds later would be farcical and delay the coupling process by several minutes.

+1

Making hundreds of people negotiate the platform-train interface without any good reason would definitely show a stunning lack of awareness of the Law of Averages.

Ow, my neck!

*Calls lawyer to pay for next Australia holiday*

Nice of you to give your lawyer a break, I'll say hi to him when he arrives

 

[Parallel]

They always make the announcement at Machynlleth advising passengers to remain seated as there will be a slight bump when the trains attach. I imagine this would be the biggest hazard, although it depends on the track. If it's quite bumpy or has bends then it can be quite difficult to walk down the isle, and fall into a seat/someone.

 

[hassaanhc]

My limited experiences as a passenger of portion working:

1902 London Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour / Bognor Regis (January & February 2014): split at Horsham, can't remember now whether uncoupling took place before release of passenger doors, or if passengers were allowed to alight then doors were closed to detach before opening again (can't see the latter one being very logical though). First occasion I travelled Gatwick Airport-Fratton and next time it was London Victoria-Havant.

1723 London Bridge to Eastbourne / East Grinstead (March 2014): Don't think this particular service exists in this form now (only seems to go to East Grinstead) but that day I got to the platform at LBG to find the 8 coaches with the doors closed and a few passengers on. Then eventually a 4 coach unit came and coupled to it, don't recall any real force being used at all. Then several minutes spent faffing around with something and staff in and out of both inner cabs to the new coupling (probably the computers? ) before finally being allowed to board. I thought we weren't going to have a "Right Time" departure :P. I only went London Bridge-East Croydon.

1429 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North / Barrow (April 2014): I boarded this at Manchester Piccadilly and was on the Barrow portion (going to Silverdale), at Preston the doors were released initially before being closed and the split taking place, and my rear unit was reversed a couple of feet before doors being released again.

 

[leedslad82]

They always make the announcement at Machynlleth advising passengers to remain seated as there will be a slight bump when the trains attach. I imagine this would be the biggest hazard, although it depends on the track. If it's quite bumpy or has bends then it can be quite difficult to walk down the isle, and fall into a seat/someone.

I used to get the 08-19 Leeds to morecombe service when I worked in keighley. This came in as two sets of two carriages from Manchester Victoria about ten past eight. They would open the doors to allow passengers to alight/board. Then shut the doors and split the units. With front two forming 08-15 to selby and rear two the morecombe service. Loads of announcements explaining what was happening but amount of times people didn't listen and ended up in the morecombe section when they had been told to move forward to front two coaches for passengers wishing to proceed onwards towards selby. Never really felt anything. Just a loud bang when they de-coupled.

 

[bussnapperwm]

London midland at Northampton when the Birmingham and crewe workings attached/detached let passengers on and off before and after departure

 

[ac6000cw]

It could have one positive effect - convincing people that good connections can actually be better than every little village getting their one 'direct' train to London each day. If you're going to get off and on again, why not do it onto a different train instead of the same one?

At Cambridge, it's partly about stock utilisation and partly necessity - off-peak for most of the day a four-car 365 is adequate between CBG and Kings Lynn, so the other unit from London forms the next train back to KGX, and in the peaks eight cars are needed KLN - CBG (and the platforms at all of the stations are not long enough to take 12 cars, as far as I know) so splitting/joining 12 car trains at Cambridge is a necessity.

 

[Crossover]

I think the biggest danger of the process with Desiros is the number of people who see the doors close and start jabbing away at door buttons, then a unit revs up (185 mainly) and moves and they then start hammering their fist on the window as if it will make an ounce of difference. I have seen it happen a few times and have explained to some passengers that they will reopen in a minute once they have attached/detached

 

[Bill Stanier]

I would love to travel in a slip carriage but I was born too late to experience it, unless there are some heritage lines that operate such things now and again for people's experience.

The use of a slip coach breaks the rule of no more than one train in a section at once, so I doubt heritage lines would do it. When the 'Big Railway' did it there were some accidents. In one instance the guard slipped the coach in fog, the train driver thought he wouldn't have slipped due the fog, so stopped in the next station for the slip coach to be manually uncoupled; whereupon the slip coach ran into the back of its own train in the fog!

Regarding coupling to stock with pax on board we find that no problem at all on our heritage line, which is perhaps as well as our steam locos have to run-around at loops at either end of the line. The stock (mk1s) are held on the vacuum and hand brakes, the loco slowly advances until the buffers contact and compress. The stock doesn't move at all until the coupling and hoses are connected and the brakes released!

 

[infobleep]

The use of a slip coach breaks the rule of no more than one train in a section at once, so I doubt heritage lines would do it. When the 'Big Railway' did it there were some accidents. In one instance the guard slipped the coach in fog, the train driver thought he wouldn't have slipped due the fog, so stopped in the next station for the slip coach to be manually uncoupled; whereupon the slip coach ran into the back of its own train in the fog!

Regarding coupling to stock with pax on board we find that no problem at all on our heritage line, which is perhaps as well as our steam locos have to run-around at loops at either end of the line. The stock (mk1s) are held on the vacuum and hand brakes, the loco slowly advances until the buffers contact and compress. The stock doesn't move at all until the coupling and hoses are connected and the brakes released!

That's a shame skip carriages wouldn't be run. Still better to be safe than injured.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Rapidash]

To the best of my knowledge, they don't give any warnings if a service is being strengthened at EXD, you just get the slight push forward, which if on a pacer one could accidently assume was an attempt at acceleration.

They do make sure to say if something is being detached, though, mostly heard on the Cardiff service in the afternoon.

 

[Welshman]

Also.. does anyone else think it's slightly crazy that given how safety critical it is keeping trains blocks apart that coupling/calling on is permitted at stations? I know the speeds are so low but should this sort of think be kept in the shunting yard?

I'd love to see the looks on the faces of passengers on Edinburgh station in the early hours, shivering in their nighties and pyjamas, as their sleeper coaches from Inverness/Fort William/Aberdeen are combined!

 

[infobleep]

I'd love to see the looks on the faces of passengers on Edinburgh station in the early hours, shivering in their nighties and pyjamas, as their sleeper coaches from Inverness/Fort William/Aberdeen are combined!

You assuming they are all wear nighties and pyjamas.

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[306024]

While there are not many in service attachments, it has been common practice on Greater Anglia for some time to close the doors on the front unit while an attachment is made, and to announce for folks to remain seated. There is even an automatic announcement if the driver can find the right code. Doors are then released again once the units are attached.

Contrast to approaching Helsinki a few weeks ago on a passenger train, where we ran in and attached immediately, all before we could alight. No stopping 6 feet short first over there. Seen similar in Holland. Now whether the Finnish announcement told us we were about to attach, well your guess is as good as mine

 

[Hophead]

My limited experiences as a passenger of portion working:

1902 London Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour / Bognor Regis (January & February 2014): split at Horsham, can't remember now whether uncoupling took place before release of passenger doors, or if passengers were allowed to alight then doors were closed to detach before opening again (can't see the latter one being very logical though).

The latter (and you're allowed to board as well!), and I can't see why it's illogical - it's the most passenger-friendly method, surely? If you didn't release the doors a second time, the train would be sat in the platform for a couple of minutes prior to booked departure time but intending passengers would be barred from boarding.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes it's sensible to open the doors both before and after splitting or joining, otherwise you end up with some very frustrated passengers. The doors have to be closed during the actual split and join, otherwise they can't get traction interlock to move the unit.

 

[headshot119]

While there are not many in service attachments, it has been common practice on Greater Anglia for some time to close the doors on the front unit while an attachment is made, and to announce for folks to remain seated. There is even an automatic announcement if the driver can find the right code. Doors are then released again once the units are attached.

Contrast to approaching Helsinki a few weeks ago on a passenger train, where we ran in and attached immediately, all before we could alight. No stopping 6 feet short first over there. Seen similar in Holland. Now whether the Finnish announcement told us we were about to attach, well your guess is as good as mine

Croatian and Malaysian railways are interesting when it comes to attaching and detaching, no stopping short, no announcements, and no locked doors!

 

[455driver]

Croatian and Malaysian railways are interesting when it comes to attaching and detaching, no stopping short, no announcements, and no locked doors!

The difference is over there people have personal responsibility and personal accountability, unlike here!

 

[Crossover]

Me and starmill were in Oxford a few weeks ago, awaiting the service to Worcester - it was an arrival from Paddington and arrived as a double set. The whole lot stopped, a crew member jumped into the cab of the rear unit, they uncoupled, propelled the rear unit a couple of feet back towards London and then released the doors. It was done with such a slickness that I have never seen on the UK railways before - very efficient.
How those on the back unit felt going briefly back to London I don't know - hopefully they had been advised!

We then left on the front unit with the rear unit left to go ECS into the sidings

 

[Blindtraveler]

The staff at Preston are good with the portion worked WCML TPE workings and you barely notice it. In contrast to this Iv had a portion worked GSW Service splitting and ataching at Kilmarnock before where the 156s needed a
huge
bang!

 

[Taunton]

Of course, to those of us who remember when the railway was all proper locomotives, they were attached and detached all day long without the slightest issue, while passengers were getting in and out, much as you still find in Switzerland etc. Quite where this paranoia about not doing so nowadays comes from I'm not aware.

 

[hassaanhc]

The latter (and you're allowed to board as well!), and I can't see why it's illogical - it's the most passenger-friendly method, surely? If you didn't release the doors a second time, the train would be sat in the platform for a couple of minutes prior to booked departure time but intending passengers would be barred from boarding.

Yes it's sensible to open the doors both before and after splitting or joining, otherwise you end up with some very frustrated passengers. The doors have to be closed during the actual split and join, otherwise they can't get traction interlock to move the unit.

Fair points, I wasn't thinking properly when writing :P (although I actually wrote "split first then open doors for first and only time", but then we're being pedantic and anyway it isn't a good idea ).
A comparison could be driver changeovers on buses, some drivers/routes allow waiting passengers to board before the changeover and then again once complete, while others make the passengers wait outside first (but let alighting passengers leave in both cases). I know which one I prefer, especially in winter...