Attaching; detaching or moving trains. What's more dangerous?

[infobleep]

I just heard the following announcement from the guard before we attached to a train in front "Customers are advised to remain seated as the trains do move slightly when attached."

It got me wondering, what is more dangerous for standing passengers, trains being attached, detached or trains moving along a line during normal service?

Has anyone been injured from trains attaching or detaching? What about trains moving? I would exclude sudden breaking and crashes but is the latter a reason for remaining seated during attachments?

If a train was packed, would all the standing passenger's have to get off before the attachment or detachment took place?

Personally I found the train sways move and I'm liable to fall into someone very rarely when the train is moving along the railway lines. Of course I do tend to remain seated when attachments take place so it's not quite scientific.

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[SpacePhoenix]

I would imagine that it's when they're being joined that's the most dangerous, when they're split up, once the connections have been separated, the drivers probably press a "release coupling" button whilst one pulls away a couple of feet.

 

[Welshman]

It got me wondering, what is more dangerous for standing passengers, trains being attached, detached or trains moving along a line during normal service?

I would imagine it's the unexpectedness of the attaching which could be the hazard.

When you're walking about/standing on a train which is moving, you are alert to the possibilities of being thrown off balance and, hopefully, prepared for them.

But when in a station on a stationary train, you might not be aware that another set is to be coupled-up to yours and the unexpected bump that happens could throw you off balance if you were not seated.

 

[edwin_m]

When attaching, the jolt could be more severe than encountered during the normal movement of the train, because it results from a sudden impact not from the usual power and brakes. Particularly so in the portion that wasn't moving before, because the passengers won't be expecting it unless warned. BSI couplers on Sprinters seem particularly unwilling to couple first time, so some drivers tend to give them a bit more of a wallop.

 

[A-driver]

When attaching you are literally crashing trains into each other so both portions can jolt and come to a very sudden stand, in some cases it could knock people over who are walking about or standing up not holding onto anything. When splitting in a tight platform the detaching portion can end up using a full service brake application to ensure that it dosnt SPAD or hit buffer stops/another train. This again could cause someone to fall over.

Trains moving in normal service tend to see passengers taking more care when walking about and standing anyway as they are expecting movement and even an emergancy brake application is unlikely to be harsh enough to see people falling over.

If the driver said nothing and just banged the 2 units together and someone fell over then there would be complaints.

 

[infobleep]

Which therefore brings me to my other question, do standing passengers have to alight when trains are joining, if the train is packed. I don't know of any crowded trains that join or split but it must occur.

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[jamesst]

Which therefore brings me to my other question, do standing passengers have to alight when trains are joining, if the train is packed. I don't know of any crowded trains that join or split but it must occur.

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I know on Merseyrail coupling/uncoupling isn't allowed with passengers onboard except in an emergency.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Which therefore brings me to my other question, do standing passengers have to alight when trains are joining, if the train is packed. I don't know of any crowded trains that join or split but it must occur.

Hayward's Heath - and I've never had to get off when a busy train splits or joins there. Having said that, I don't think they carry the practice out in the peak so it's only going to be occasional when something is full and standing there getting this treatment - Eastbourne air show weekend is an example.

 

[bitmadmax]

I was on a single car 185 a few months ago at MCO (it's normally 2 units from Liverpool on this particular working). The other unit was waiting ahead in the platform for us to couple to. Even though we were warned about the coupling and allowed to stay on board it was still very disconcerting and this was in the moving unit - must have been worse in the other unit

Also.. does anyone else think it's slightly crazy that given how safety critical it is keeping trains blocks apart that coupling/calling on is permitted at stations? I know the speeds are so low but should this sort of think be kept in the shunting yard?

 

[A-driver]

Which therefore brings me to my other question, do standing passengers have to alight when trains are joining, if the train is packed. I don't know of any crowded trains that join or split but it must occur.

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Not unless a toc specifically insists on it. Southern and FCC regularly attach and split trains with pax on.

It shouldn't cause anyone to fall over if standing asking as they are expecting it-the force isn't that violent. It's more if someone is walking through the train assuming it will remain stationary could loose balance if not given warning.

 

[ac6000cw]

Which therefore brings me to my other question, do standing passengers have to alight when trains are joining, if the train is packed. I don't know of any crowded trains that join or split but it must occur.

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They certainly don't have to alight at Cambridge (and splitting/joining happens peak and off-peak). I can't remember what announcements are made inside the train, but the staff just close the doors (to make sure nobody tries to join/alight the train(s)), keep passengers back from the platform edge and then do the coupling. Doors are re-opened after all the pull-back tests are complete etc.

 

[Jona26]

Arrived into Waterloo recently and the train coupled to another unit already in the platform on arrival before the doors were released and we were allowed off. No announcement was made prior to this happening and although I realised what was happening the majority of passengers looked a bit concerned at the 'impact'.

I don't know if this is the usual sequence at Waterloo - we were not running late and I don't know why the guard didn't make an announcement in advance to warn passengers. Most were standing by the doors and had a bit of a jolt!

 

[SPADTrap]

I was on a single car 185 a few months ago at MCO (it's normally 2 units from Liverpool on this particular working). The other unit was waiting ahead in the platform for us to couple to. Even though we were warned about the coupling and allowed to stay on board it was still very disconcerting and this was in the moving unit - must have been worse in the other unit

Also.. does anyone else think it's slightly crazy that given how safety critical it is keeping trains blocks apart that coupling/calling on is permitted at stations? I know the speeds are so low but should this sort of think be kept in the shunting yard?

Not really no. Why isn't it safe?!

 

[185]

Why isn't it safe?

Ow, my neck!

*Calls lawyer to pay for next Australia holiday*

 

[Sodor85]

Arrived into Waterloo recently and the train coupled to another unit already in the platform on arrival before the doors were released and we were allowed off. No announcement was made prior to this happening and although I realised what was happening the majority of passengers looked a bit concerned at the 'impact'.

I don't know if this is the usual sequence at Waterloo - we were not running late and I don't know why the guard didn't make an announcement in advance to warn passengers. Most were standing by the doors and had a bit of a jolt!

Surprised there wasn't an announcement. I've not been in this particular service but on services in the past in my experience there has always been an announcement.

 

[NSE]

Oh no if its busy FCC don't kick people off. I've stood up loads of times (cause I've been standing anyway) and you just gotta hold on. Its not that dangerous. Though it does make me chuckle when sitting in the back carriage and the second unit slams into us. Especially when it won't play ball and takes three or four slams.

 

[SPADTrap]

Ow, my neck!

*Calls lawyer to pay for next Australia holiday*

Ok, but why isn't it safe?

 

[infobleep]

My comment about standing was because they feel people to remain seated, which clearly isn't possible if all the seats are taken by other passengers.

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[user15681]

It doesn't happen when passengers are on board, except really in an emergency, but I wouldn't want to be standing up on a 465 coupling. They get thrown about a fair bit!

 

[G0ORC]

My comment about standing was because they feel people to remain seated, which clearly isn't possible if all the seats are taken by other passengers.

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I've got the ideal job for you - I hear there are vacancies at the Health and Safety Executive.

For crying out loud, this practice has been going on for as long as railways have been around. Have you heard of anyone who has been injured while two units couple in a station?

I'm sure 455driver will put me right, but when I left the industry a few years ago, to couple anything to anything else, the moving vehicle must stop six (or was it three?) feet apart, then SLOWLY move forward until the couplers engage. Just what is the problem with that?

I think sometimes you lot on here ought to go out more instead of inventing safety problems which don't exist

If you think this is unsafe, why don't you google "slip coach" - now that WAS fun!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_coach

 

[Minilad]

I've got the ideal job for you - I hear there are vacancies at the Health and Safety Executive.

For crying out loud, this practice has been going on for as long as railways have been around. Have you heard of anyone who has been injured while two units couple in a station?

I'm sure 455driver will put me right, but when I left the industry a few years ago, to couple anything to anything else, the moving vehicle must stop six feet apart, then SLOWLY move forward until the couplers engage. Just what is the problem with that?

I think sometime you lot on here ought to go out more instead of inventing safety problems which don't exist

If you think this is unsafe, why don't you google "slip coach" - now that WAS fun!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_coach

Six foot. Then two foot. Then ease forward. The jolt should be minimal. I have been on many trains that have coupled and barely felt a thing. Likewise when I couple up (admittedly mostly ECS) I try to imagine there are people on the train and do it as gently as possible. Occasionally an errant coupler might mean a slightly harder than normal coming together is required but this is pretty rare in my experience

 

[infobleep]

I've got the ideal job for you - I hear there are vacancies at the Health and Safety Executive.

For crying out loud, this practice has been going on for as long as railways have been around. Have you heard of anyone who has been injured while two units couple in a station?

I'm sure 455driver will put me right, but when I left the industry a few years ago, to couple anything to anything else, the moving vehicle must stop six (or was it three?) feet apart, then SLOWLY move forward until the couplers engage. Just what is the problem with that?

I think sometimes you lot on here ought to go out more instead of inventing safety problems which don't exist

If you think this is unsafe, why don't you google "slip coach" - now that WAS fun!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_coach

I couldn't see a problem standing up, hence my question. I would love to travel in a slip carriage but I was born too late to experience it, unless there are some heritage lines that operate such things now and again for people's experience.

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[ExRes]

I was on a single car 185 a few months ago at MCO (it's normally 2 units from Liverpool on this particular working). The other unit was waiting ahead in the platform for us to couple to. Even though we were warned about the coupling and allowed to stay on board it was still very disconcerting and this was in the moving unit - must have been worse in the other unit

Also.. does anyone else think it's slightly crazy that given how safety critical it is keeping trains blocks apart that coupling/calling on is permitted at stations? I know the speeds are so low but should this sort of think be kept in the shunting yard?

I know I'd rather be anywhere than in a single car 185

I can just see 2 trainloads of passengers being told to leave their trains so that they can pop off into the yard to couple up, "never mind everyone, we'll keep your seats for you" ...........

 

[G0ORC]

Six foot. Then two foot. Then ease forward. The jolt should be minimal. I have been on many trains that have coupled and barely felt a thing. Likewise when I couple up (admittedly mostly ECS) I try to imagine there are people on the train and do it as gently as possible. Occasionally an errant coupler might mean a slightly harder than normal coming together is required but this is pretty rare in my experience

Thanks for that, I've been away from the job for too long - one forgets these details!

 

[Crossover]

I have been on a few joining trains, the first experience of it was on a 185. We were warned about it but it was a hell of a jolt when they went together. I have since been on another 185 which wasn't quite as bad and on a 377 which I didn't feel at all. I did wonder if there was an element of Southern being well practiced on 377's (it was one of the regular hourly joining services at Horsham, IIRC) where TPE maybe aren't quite so confident. Either way, I wouldn't want to be in a situation where a train hits something at more than walking pace after that first encounter!

They certainly don't have to alight at Cambridge (and splitting/joining happens peak and off-peak). I can't remember what announcements are made inside the train, but the staff just close the doors (to make sure nobody tries to join/alight the train(s)), keep passengers back from the platform edge and then do the coupling. Doors are re-opened after all the pull-back tests are complete etc.

Can't speak for all stock, but certainly new stuff (Desiros namely I'm aware of) I believe has to have all doors secured and interlock gained before attaching/detaching, otherwise it stuffs the onboard systems and prevents a brake release or similar, let alone for passenger safety

 

[ac6000cw]

I was on a single car 185 a few months ago at MCO (it's normally 2 units from Liverpool on this particular working). The other unit was waiting ahead in the platform for us to couple to. Even though we were warned about the coupling and allowed to stay on board it was still very disconcerting and this was in the moving unit - must have been worse in the other unit

Also.. does anyone else think it's slightly crazy that given how safety critical it is keeping trains blocks apart that coupling/calling on is permitted at stations? I know the speeds are so low but should this sort of think be kept in the shunting yard?

Not really - it's just normal railway practice (the world over, as far as I know). It's because it's a potentially hazardous situation that a) it's a very low-speed operation only and b) there are specific rules and signalling to govern it. Block sections and 'station limits' are two different things.

 

[the sniper]

I noticed in France a few months ago that there they split TGVs with the doors open. I think they might have done the attach with the door open too.

On coupling/calling on in stations, there are many places in the country where the service would very quickly fall over if they were banned. The railway would be unworkable.

 

[DJL]

It doesn't happen when passengers are on board, except really in an emergency, but I wouldn't want to be standing up on a 465 coupling. They get thrown about a fair bit!

I'm pretty sure I've been on a 465 when coupling at Orpington (which could have been done with no passengers on board).
I do remember it was a fair jolt and if done without warning could cause a few standing/walking passengers to fall. But with sufficient warning It's not really an issue.

Although I do wonder what happens about those who are hard of hearing...

 

[fowler9]

Is this a recent thing. I spent my formative years in the 70's, 80's and 90's with locos coupling up to trains while everyone was on board. I can't recall any serious injuries, or indeed any injuries at all. Are the autocouplers on multiple units more dangerous?

 

[Hadders]

I've been on a 365 at Kings Cross when it's coupled up to another unit. IIRC they usually close the doors to prevent passengers getting on or off while the coupling takes place but passengers already on the train may remain on board.

The driver usually announces what's happening over the pa, there's a small movement with a 'clunk' rather than a jolt. There's no safety issue.

I dread to think of the chaos that would happen if passengers had to get off and get back on when trains coupled. Places like Cambridge and Haywards heath would be a nightmare.