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There is a reason why strikes are endemic in the public sector and it because the striking workers get to delight in disruption maximisation and walk back into their jobs the next day as if nothing had happened.
Do you actually know any train drivers? Because I can assure you literally nobody 'delights in disruption maximisation' as you put it. Try to stop presenting your biased opinion as fact.
Yes, I can understand why some who were unable to get to work all week wouldn’t be delighted about those responsible being “rewarded” for it, as it were. (With their taxes too.)
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They work tirelessly to save lives though, so it’s not a fair comparison really. A better comparison is bus drivers (on a pittance) and those in industries such as banking, many of whom haven’t had a rise in yonks, or hospitality, where the wages really are pretty poor if you’re not on a managerial level. Hospitality really could do with a worker’s union.
Hospitality could absolutely do with a union. I simply don’t believe that somebody who works for a bank hasn’t had a payrise in ‘yonks’.
Train drivers are deservedly paid well because it’s a demanding job with high skill levels and incredibly unsociable shift patterns. Anybody who can drive a car could drive a bus, very few could drive a train.
Train drivers are deservedly paid well because it’s a demanding job with high skill levels and incredibly unsociable shift patterns. Anybody who can drive a car could drive a bus, very few could drive a train.
I can well believe it, but train driving is not a life saving emergency service such as fire fighters and paramedics, and therefore I don’t believe it should be compared to one.
Slightly selfishly, that doesn't appear to affect any of my upcoming Jan/Feb travel. Still annoying though, and Aslef should have gone the way of RMT ages ago.
I can well believe it, but train driving is not a life saving emergency service such as fire fighters and paramedics, and therefore I don’t believe it should be compared to one.
I can well believe it, but train driving is not a life saving emergency service such as fire fighters and paramedics, and therefore I don’t believe it should be compared to one.
Train driving is not an emergency service, who over suggested it was! Train driving is a "keeping people safe and alive" industry as every hour of every shift a train driver is keeping 10s, 100s or thousands of passengers alive and uninjured by doing their job to some of the highest safety standards in any industry. That is one reason why the pay is good and the Ts&Cs need to be good.
Yes, it's an interesting one, especially if one of the staff on a train is off sick and it can't then run, and the service goes below the minimum level. Can they force a striker to go in to get to that minimum service?? Would that in itself be illegal??
Well they would publish the work notices in advance and those staff would have to turn up. If you mean one of those staff that have been chosen to work go sick on the day then you can't force someone else in that you didn't issue a notice too. I would guess most crew wouldn't answer the phone on the day and might even have had a drink etc. And of course in many cases wouldn't live near enough to the depot to get there in time.
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You really are talking absolute nonsense regards Drivers ' get to delight' from striking, this is the first time I've been on strike in over 30 years on the job, I take no delight whatsoever in it, I definitely am not prepared to accept the last 'offer' and the bonfire of T&Cs attached to it.
Just to add, FOCs have been subject to strike ballots in the past, but being real businesses as you put it,they sat down with the unions and thrashed out solutions.
I can well believe it, but train driving is not a life saving emergency service such as fire fighters and paramedics, and therefore I don’t believe it should be compared to one.
Train driving is not an emergency service, who over suggested it was! Train driving is a "keeping people safe and alive" industry as every hour of every shift a train driver is keeping 10s, 100s or thousands of passengers alive and uninjured by doing their job to some of the highest safety standards in any industry. That is one reason why the pay is good and the Ts&Cs need to be good.
Its not a good comparison, if for no other reason commercial airline pilots have to fork out upwards of £100K just to train for their licence. And then flying an aircraft is nothing like driving a train.
So your claim is that a majority Labour government would hold a prolonged industrial relations dispute between workers in state corporations (and potentially some overhanging Government-contracted private companies) and a Labour-affiliated trade union?
Its not a good comparison, if for no other reason commercial airline pilots have to fork out upwards of £100K just to train for their licence. And then flying an aircraft is nothing like driving a train.
Driving a HGV is nothing like driving a train and some HGV drivers now get paid as much as some train drivers. And also nursing and policing etc are nothing like driving trains but people still compare.
I'm not aware of any cases where GMB or Unite are representing any doctors in Wales, so I would imagine not? Even if they were the dispute there is far more likely to be resolved. If the Welsh Government had the appropriate tax powers it probably would have been already.
Comparing who earns what is all irrelevant, the fact remains that Train drivers under the control of the franchised Toc's haven't had a payrise in over 4 years, that is absolutely scandalous, can anyone who has commented on this thread who isn't a driver honestly tell me they they haven't had one either?
Driving a HGV is nothing like driving a train and some HGV drivers now get paid as much as some train drivers. And also nursing and policing etc are nothing like driving trains but people still compare.
You will always get people making comparisons on grounds such as which job is percieved as more "demanding" or "deserving" or "skilful", along with a variety of other factors. But the reality is that supply and demand plays a huge role. Another key factor is the time taken, and resources invested, to train someone up (and whether the person has to pay for it themselves, such as pilots, or if the company pays, as in most jobs) and this also often gets ignored.
One of the jobs I do is a football coach and the salary for this can be very low:
However there will be no shortage of takers for that role, guaranteed. I'm lucky in that I can do such a role for just a few hours a week on a more reasonable rate of pay.
Having worked in a wide variety of roles, for private and public employers, I can see arguments for or against different jobs being paid differently, but at the end of the day, it's a lot more complex than the average person might think. Some of the roles I do are paid much more generously than others but at the end of the day I pick and choose what I want to do, and if not enough people choose to do a particular role at a particular salary, then if those positions need to be filled, the salary has to rise.
Working in rail is, in general, better paid than many other sectors. Of course this is not universally true of all rail-related jobs and there will always be exceptions, but as a generalisation it's surely an undeniable fact. Whether members of the general public see that as fair or not doesn't really come into it; as the saying goes, "it is what it is". But if anyone is in a job which others think is overpaid, at the end of the day people have the right to think that. But then they also have the right to try to apply for those jobs, when they become available (which, in the case of train drivers, many many people do!)
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Comparing who earns what is all irrelevant, the fact remains that Train drivers under the control of the franchised Toc's haven't had a payrise in over 4 years, that is absolutely scandalous, can anyone who has commented on this thread who isn't a driver honestly tell me they they haven't had one either?
I did a job where I had no pay rise for over 4 years, but it started on a high base (hourly salary equivalent to a train driver, although not at the highest paying TOCs), so I didn't complain. At the end of the day, if the role of train driver isn't paying enough (at any operator) then that will be reflected by an inability for the company to fill positions, and that would force the company to pay more, if they can't afford to be short staffed.
I did a job where I had no pay rise for over 4 years, but it started on a high base (hourly salary equivalent to a train driver, although not at the highest paying TOCs), so I didn't complain. At the end of the day, if the role of train driver isn't paying enough (at any operator) then that will be reflected by an inability for the company to fill positions, and that would force the company to pay more, if they can't afford to be short staffed.
Comparing who earns what is all irrelevant, the fact remains that Train drivers under the control of the franchised Toc's haven't had a payrise in over 4 years, that is absolutely scandalous, can anyone who has commented on this thread who isn't a driver honestly tell me they they haven't had one either?
I could point you to a lot of people who lost 20% and even more of their income in 2020-21 & even into 2021-22. I could also point you to people that lost their jobs entirely, and others whose businesses tanked in the same period.
I understand that many are unhappy about not having a pay rise for 4 years, although actually this would be more like two should any deal be accepted as it should be retrospectively applied. But train drivers didn't live in some unfortunate bubble, much of the country got hit hard and most will still be trying to recover from that serious hit. At least for the most part drivers had their jobs and wages protected, with little or no need to lean on Universal Credit just to put food on the table. I think its important to remember this.
I could point you to a lot of people who lost 20% and even more of their income in 2020-21 & even into 2021-22. I could also point you to people that lost their jobs entirely, and others whose businesses tanked in the same period.
I understand that many are unhappy about not having a pay rise for 4 years, although actually this would be more like two should any deal be accepted as it should be retrospectively applied. But train drivers didn't live in some unfortunate bubble, much of the country got hit hard and most will still be trying to recover from that serious hit. At least for the most part drivers had their jobs and wages protected, with little or no need to lean on Universal Credit just to put food on the table. I think its important to remember this.
Comparing who earns what is all irrelevant, the fact remains that Train drivers under the control of the franchised Toc's haven't had a payrise in over 4 years, that is absolutely scandalous, can anyone who has commented on this thread who isn't a driver honestly tell me they they haven't had one either?
not me i.m now retired, but my daughter is a ambulance/patient transport driver, in a now classed private company she has not had a pay rise for over 4yrs... but will this April cause the minimum wage is going up.
My take on this is where you start from, ie a train driver difficult job, hours, training etc. but 4yrs ago their pay was decent/good and a porter/booking office clerk was a lot less because it was not so demanding, so 4yrs on no rises but the gap is still there... some people outside of the rail industry have had rises, a lot are still below drivers, and have had to make changes to their working practises to keep their jobs.
So in the case of comparisons a director or the toilet cleaner vast difference in pay but who do you miss most when absent...
So your claim is that a majority Labour government would hold a prolonged industrial relations dispute between workers in state corporations (and potentially some overhanging Government-contracted private companies) and a Labour-affiliated trade union?
Yes. My self employed wife also lost thousands because her business was unable to operate. But none of this is the point.
If and when a pay deal is finally agreed, providing nothing changes you will be paid back to 2022-23 as I understand it. Yes that means a couple of years without a pay rise, but lets remember what was happening at the time. As I said many people lost a lot of income, which is why some people aren't cheering on this continuing action by ASLEF members.
Comparing who earns what is all irrelevant, the fact remains that Train drivers under the control of the franchised Toc's haven't had a payrise in over 4 years, that is absolutely scandalous, can anyone who has commented on this thread who isn't a driver honestly tell me they they haven't had one either?
Precisely.
Take the NHS for example, not known for its generous pay awards to staff who arguably do a more important job than driving a train - have had a cumulative pay rise of 16.1% since 2020.
Your right, it did work well in December. There was chaos spread over 10 days. It proved a very effective way of acting, whilst individual members lose at most one day's pay for over a week of disruption. After 5 years with no reasonable payoffer from Dft what else is Aslef to do?
Precisely.
Take the NHS for example, not known for its generous pay awards to staff who arguably do a more important job than driving a train - have had a cumulative pay rise of 16.1% since 2020.
Many people were paid 80% of their salary to stay at home and not work, which was not an option offered to the vast majority of train drivers due to the railway being considered an essential service, required to be kept running for the benefit of key workers and the country as a whole. Funny how the Government doesn't seem to consider the railway quite so essential any more isn't it?
If you're looking for someone to blame for this whole debacle, look no further than the Tory Government and their response to Covid, combined with their reticence in engaging with ASLEF and refusal to offer them the same deal that was offered to and accepted by the RMT.
Train strikes over pay disputes are common. But what are train drivers actually paid?
www.euronews.com
(Euronews is a TV news channel. Article compares EU and UK train driver salaries. It says that UK train drivers earn much more than their EU counterparts, nearly twice that of French and German drivers)
If correct, it would seem that Aslef has done an outstanding job for its members over the years.
However, with industry income significantly down compared to before covid, where is any more money going to come from?
According to this article Irish train drivers earn 31k. Yet Irish rail starting salaries for drivers begin at 45k. So I'm not sure how they have calculated this.
Train driving is a hugely tiring, mentally taxing and unsociable job, working very long shifts at all hours of the day whilst maintaining absolute perfection of performance. Those outside the industry simply cannot grasp the amount of detailed information all train drivers have to learn and be capable of recalling instantly should the situation so demand - even knowledge they haven't had call to use for years or even decades. A train driver is responsible for thousands of lives throughout the course of their shift and must be at their best all the time. There is no leeway. This is why drivers are paid well - the role is deserving of it.
That doesn't mean other roles are not deserving. NHS employees, teachers, social workers - they are all, in my opinion, underpaid for the work they do. Their pay should be more reflective of their role - but that's got nothing to do with train drivers! Each role should be judged on its own merits and paid accordingly; one shouldn't be dragged down to the same poor level as another.
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www.euronews.com
