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Ultimately, everyone has the right to negotiate the terms of their employment (including the money), and if they don’t get it, to withdraw their labour, either temporarily (eg by striking or working to rule) or permanently by seeking other employment. Their employer, and wider society, then has to decide if they want the output of that labour enough to offer what is asked. The problem in this case seems to be a confusion about who determines that offer, the TOCs or the Government.
People who think train drivers are grossly overpaid are at liberty to attempt the role. They are also at liberty to refuse to use the railways as a mode of transport, or even, at the extremes, to campaign for the abolition of railways. Moaning about it on here is probably the least useful thing they can do, but again, they are free (within the forum rules and the decisions of moderators) to do so. What they can’t do, no matter how much they envy or resent the drivers’ position, is dictate to other people the terms under which they will work, like it or not. There’s a word for that, and it was abolished in this country in 1807.
A lot of comparisons to other jobs all of which are pointless. Especially as i don’t see anyone comparing MP’s rises compared to those other jobs.
Saw a post regarding drivers in the EU getting paid less. Yes there basic is less, but they get paid enhanced rates for overtime,bank holidays,unsocial hours and many other enhancements in line with being civil servants. None of which we get in the UK, so at the end of the day take home earnings are a lot closer.
They also haven’t suffered the effects of privatisation where in this country are market was created for drivers services. The Tories created this with privatisation, no one else!
Conjecture about who earns what, is to create a distraction from the Tory mishandling of this dispute and the broader impact of 14 years of austerity and the deliberate abandonment of public services.
Train driving, as a skill, is completely misunderstood by the public and is regularly dismissed by mainstream media and politicians, who seek to disparage the industry in order to wrestle the public narrative. Whether or not anyone subscribes to this, the fact remains that train driving requires a high level of cognitive ability, hence why all train drivers undergo rigorous psychometric training to establish occupational suitability.
Further, there's a reason why the average training period extends to around 2 years. Drivers have to know the rule book verbatim, learn their routes inside and out (station platform formations, signalling systems, low adhesion sites, signal box sections, speed limits, braking sections, shunting moves, general route risk areas, sectional appendix instructions, employer working instructions, track diagrams, level crossings). The list goes on and on and on. Drivers have to know how to operate each train they drive, resolve all sorts of technical issues and deal with emergency situations. Above all else, maintaining sky-high concentration levels and keeping calm when you're sliding along the track at 125mph also helps, so that passengers can get from A-B alive.
I believe their pay is certainly commensurate with the skill, knowledge and responsibility. It's very similar to the aviation industry in terms of responsibility and potential consequences.
The rail industry has a very strong and well organised trade union who have defended and negotiated excellent pay and conditions for its members. It isn't that the rail industry is overpaid, more that other professions have allowed their own T's & C's to be eroded by apathy and a failure of trade union activism.
I agree with anyone that laments the NHS pay structures, as an example. Nurses and doctors should be awarded pay increases and I have great sympathy with the junior doctors who have, for decades, been used and abused as cheap labour. As anyone who knows, nurses are also fighting not just for pay, but for better staffing levels, better patient safety standards, excessive working hours etc. And the same is true for the rail industry. I'm pretty certain that 4%, no-strings-attached, backdated would be accepted by ASLEF members in an instant. However, not with the associated wrecking bar changes to T's & C's proposed by the government via the DFT and RDG.
And that really takes us to the crux of the debate. It's up to other professions to organise trade union movements and fight for better salaries and T's & C's, like the CPS barristers who got themselves 15% pay rise and MP's who have managed a 30% pay rise in the last 10 years or so, whilst we're all told to "graft harder".
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Yes. My self employed wife also lost thousands because her business was unable to operate. But none of this is the point.
If and when a pay deal is finally agreed, providing nothing changes you will be paid back to 2022-23 as I understand it. Yes that means a couple of years without a pay rise, but lets remember what was happening at the time. As I said many people lost a lot of income, which is why some people aren't cheering on this continuing action by ASLEF members.
Yes, lets remember what happened at the time. Rail workers were considered key workers, providing a public service to those others who relied on public transport to get to and from their place of work.
And if we're talking about distribution of public money to run the railways, let us not forget, all the shareholders of the privately owned companies running the railways received full dividends. It is scandalous that hundreds of millions of pounds were syphoned off, only for the railway workers to be told that there is no money for pay awards.
Many people were paid 80% of their salary to stay at home and not work, which was not an option offered to the vast majority of train drivers due to the railway being considered an essential service, required to be kept running for the benefit of key workers and the country as a whole.
Would you have been happy losing 20% of your salary? Or worse, being laid off completely if the government had decided to shut the network down as happened in much of aviation? I've read quite a few people on these forums lamenting the fact they didn't get the chance to stay at home and lose money, but also lamenting the fact they didn't get a pay rise in the same period. Lets face it, the industry was underwritten whilst passenger numbers and revenues were way down, so it might have to be the case you take the hit for job security.
Is it fair? No. Was other people losing 20% or worse fair? Even more not.
Easily remedied. The industry needs to woo the private sector back, meaning it doesn't have to rely more and more on public funds which always short in supply.
If you're looking for someone to blame for this whole debacle, look no further than the Tory Government and their response to Covid, combined with their reticence in engaging with ASLEF and refusal to offer them the same deal that was offered to and accepted by the RMT.
I've long been of the opinion that all sides are to blame. It doesn't seem to matter what government or management are in charge, or what union policies are, the industry seems to stumble from one mess to another whilst all the time costing us punters more and more. Its literally a running joke.
Would you have been happy losing 20% of your salary? Or worse, being laid off completely if the government had decided to shut the network down as happened in much of aviation? I've read quite a few people on these forums lamenting the fact they didn't get the chance to stay at home and lose money, but also lamenting the fact they didn't get a pay rise in the same period. Lets face it, the industry was underwritten whilst passenger numbers and revenues were way down, so it might have to be the case you take the hit for job security.
Is it fair? No. Was other people losing 20% or worse fair? Even more not.
Easily remedied. The industry needs to woo the private sector back, meaning it doesn't have to rely more and more on public funds which always short in supply.
I've long been of the opinion that all sides are to blame. It doesn't seem to matter what government or management are in charge, or what union policies are, the industry seems to stumble from one mess to another whilst all the time costing us punters more and more. Its literally a running joke.
You're comparing chalk & cheese. Railways are a critical public transport sector. Tourism aviation sector is not.
'woo the private sector back'.... No idea what you mean since the entire rail sector is sill privately owned. The government now pay the TOCs to run services. You might need to go away and do a little research on this.
Unions don't run the railway. The DFT, RDG, TOCs and the government run the railways. They are responsible for the mess it's in. The railways ills owe more to their incompetence than employee T's & C's
You're comparing chalk & cheese. Railways are a critical public transport sector. Tourism aviation sector is not.
'woo the private sector back'.... No idea what you mean since the entire rail sector is sill privately owned. The government now pay the TOCs to run services. You might need to go away and do a little research on this.
Unions don't run the railway. The DFT, RDG, TOCs and the government run the railways. They are responsible for the mess it's in. The railways ills owe more to their incompetence than employee T's & C's
More and more companies are falling under government control, which really, really should tell a wider story. Sadly there seems no appetite from all sides to really get to the heart of the problem, so it will just limp along with dispute after dispute thrown in. And people will start to mitigate for it getting worse by using others means whenever the railway falls over...
I’ll have to say though it appears to me the impact is getting less and less each time.
In plenty of locations people can easily plan around the (limited) service provision or just shift a day for working from home or travel a day earlier/later; a good proportion of rail travellers remain commuters in London & SE.
Not in my line of work where we're desperately trying to run essential services and staff (who live outside of London) can't get into work. Many jobs cannot be done from home; nor is there the flexibility to just "shift a day" or "travel a day earlier/later"
More and more companies are falling under government control, which really, really should tell a wider story. Sadly there seems no appetite from all sides to really get to the heart of the problem, so it will just limp along with dispute after dispute thrown in. And people will start to mitigate for it getting worse by using others means whenever the railway falls over...
Unions have, are and will in the future, work with regulators and such to reform and improve the railway sector. ASLEF are open for talks and continue to invite the respective negotiating teams to the table, only for the DFT and Tories to stubbornly insist their offer is full & final. The ASLEF members have by proxy, rejected the offer in full, through continued balloting for further strike action. The gov need to stop obfuscating and get back around the table to thrash out an acceptable deal.
There are two very separate elements to this debate 1: T's & C's and the pay rise. 2: Management and policy directives in the railway sector.
If you want better managed railways, that's down to the people that run them. And that is a separate issue entirely.
There are only 3 grades as it stands that have power, drivers, guards and signalmen, with guards and signalmen losing their power slowly but not without a fight (I'm amazed that the signalmen haven't been more ready to withdraw their labour like the drivers as I think they'd get more from it), from privatisation it became a performance based railway and not a customer based one, Aslef knew this and have used their power very well (to the detriment of other grades as there is no money to ever get the pay rises they do), years ago a CO3 was basically the same as a driver, now look at the disparity, is it fair? Well I always thought the drivers should have been on more simply because of the responsibility alone but the difference now is becoming crazy, the long term I think will be no full time staff on stations simply contract workers on minimum wage or near it and no pensions to speak of and the drivers being the only contracted employees to the toc.
A terrible future.
Unions have, are and will in the future, work with regulators and such to reform and improve the railway sector. ASLEF are open for talks and continue to invite the respective negotiating teams to the table, only for the DFT and Tories to stubbornly insist their offer is full & final. The ASLEF members have by proxy, rejected the offer in full, through continued balloting for further strike action. The gov need to stop obfuscating and get back around the table to thrash out an acceptable deal.
There are two very separate elements to this debate 1: T's & C's and the pay rise. 2: Management and policy directives in the railway sector.
If you want better managed railways, that's down to the people that run them. And that is a separate issue entirely.
There are only 3 grades as it stands that have power, drivers, guards and signalmen, with guards and signalmen losing their power slowly but not without a fight (I'm amazed that the signalmen haven't been more ready to withdraw their labour like the drivers as I think they'd get more from it), from privatisation it became a performance based railway and not a customer based one, Aslef knew this and have used their power very well (to the detriment of other grades as there is no money to ever get the pay rises they do), years ago a CO3 was basically the same as a driver, now look at the disparity, is it fair? Well I always thought the drivers should have been on more simply because of the responsibility alone but the difference now is becoming crazy, the long term I think will be no full time staff on stations simply contract workers on minimum wage or near it and no pensions to speak of and the drivers being the only contracted employees to the toc.
A terrible future.
I would have said some 30+ years ago a CO4 would have been in the same ball-park as a driver - whether it was a 3 or 4 matters little - in those BR days the driver would have had mileage and shift allowance on top. As a CO4 at the time I thought that was reasonable - the role I had then was flat days, no weekends, no overtime and no bank holidays. The inner and outer NSE allowances were probably the same. I would be interested in clerical grades rates of pay now.
I would have said some 30+ years ago a CO4 would have been in the same ball-park as a driver - whether it was a 3 or 4 matters little - in those BR days the driver would have had mileage and shift allowance on top. As a CO4 at the time I thought that was reasonable - the role I had then was flat days, no weekends, no overtime and no bank holidays. The inner and outer NSE allowances were probably the same. I would be interested in clerical grades rates of pay now.
I'm guessing 30k? Few left now but they wouldn't want to move to new contracts as their basic would be more but no time and 3/4 on a Sunday and the like.
ASLEF are open for talks and continue to invite the respective negotiating teams to the table, only for the DFT and Tories to stubbornly insist their offer is full & final. The ASLEF members have by proxy, rejected the offer in full, through continued balloting for further strike action. The gov need to stop obfuscating and get back around the table to thrash out an acceptable deal.
Except the Government don't need to do that. They've told ASLEF what the offer is. ASLEF have rejected it without balloting their members on the offer and 'stubbornly insisted', to coin your phrase, on a no-strings pay deal. Or does intransigence only work one way in this dispute?
Except the Government don't need to do that. They've told ASLEF what the offer is. ASLEF have rejected it without balloting their members on the offer and 'stubbornly insisted', to coin your phrase, on a no-strings pay deal. Or does intransigence only work one way in this dispute?
I believe ASLEF have said that any changes to terms and conditions should be negotiated at a local level as it has been since the dawn of time and not arbitrarily imposed by Government which is exactly right and is the same line taken by the RMT. Can you explain why a better offer was put to the RMT and accepted but the same offer was not put to ASLEF?
I would have said some 30+ years ago a CO4 would have been in the same ball-park as a driver - whether it was a 3 or 4 matters little - in those BR days the driver would have had mileage and shift allowance on top. As a CO4 at the time I thought that was reasonable - the role I had then was flat days, no weekends, no overtime and no bank holidays. The inner and outer NSE allowances were probably the same. I would be interested in clerical grades rates of pay now.
I suspect probably quite a number would theoretically be eligible to learn to drive a train.,I’ll leave the rest to others more experienced to answer .
Funnily enough it's amazing how outside of the enthusiast / Daily Mail reading bubble, how many "customers" say they are supportive of the action. So far I've only had one, yes one "customer" say anything remotely negative to me, and he also managed to spit in my face whilst doing so, so that gives you a measure of that particular "customer".
I have had plenty of positive comments and the travelling public are showing a remarkable degree of empathy towards train drivers on the whole, which I'm very grateful for.
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A classic phrase often touted by those who have no idea what it takes to drive a train. Easy it is not, it demands enormous amounts of concentration and full attention at all times. Adjustment of driving style dependent upon conditions, be able to recall relevant rules from the massive amount we have to know at a moments notice, a forensic knowledge of the route you are driving over and knowing where you are at all times in all conditions. I could go on but it's an insult to say driving a train is easy and anyone who tells you differently is either lying or being sarcastic.
Comparing who earns what is all irrelevant, the fact remains that Train drivers under the control of the franchised Toc's haven't had a payrise in over 4 years, that is absolutely scandalous,
Is it though? In real terms they're paid about the same (probably a bit less) than in 2010. That's pretty good by today's (rubbish) standards. Certainly much better than most public sector employees, including the whole NHS.
I think we're done here. Nothing has fundamentally changed on either side which means we are where we are. Arguing the toss about whether or not drivers are "OVERPAID BUTTON PUSHING MONKEYS" or "UNDERPAID PERSECUTED SALT OF THE EARTH WORKERS"* isn't exactly going to get us anywhere other than spread ill feeling. People are entitled to their views and I have seen very little indication that anyone is changing their opinion on the current ASLEF dispute.
If anyone has queries in relation to journey planning, refunds or similar please feel free to start a thread to discuss this in the appropriate Forum. Otherwise until there is some sort of update we'll bring the discussion to a close here.
*Hopefully I do not need to indicate that those statements are intended to be humorous hyperbole but just in case, they are...
An update: ASLEF have announced that on LNER their members will be on strike for five consecutive days:
Train drivers who are members of ASLEF Union will walk out on LNER for five days from Monday 5 until Friday 9 February.
The drivers will also refuse to work any non-contractual overtime from Wednesday 7 until Saturday 10 February.
The action is in furtherance of the union's long-running pay dispute with the operator.
Mick Whelan, general secretary of ASLEF, commented: "We have given LNER management - and their government counterparts who hold the purse strings - every opportunity to come to the table and they have so far made no realistic offer to our members.
"We have not heard from the Transport Secretary since December 2022, or from the train operating companies since April 2023. It's time for them to come to the table and work with us to resolve this dispute so we can all move forward and get our railway back on track."
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