ASLEF and RMT agree: no more DOO or DCO

[gtr driver]

How about the situation where in the pm peak an operator has decided DOO trains must be dispatched by platform staff. But in the morning peak on the same platform platform staff not provided to dispatch the train.

DOO from platforms on your right hand side. Once you sit in the seat you have no idea what is going on.

How about DOO from platforms with a locally monitored level crossing immediately beyond the end of the platform? How do I look back to monitor the corridor as I depart and monitor the crossing?

DOO is a minefield.

Quite. Earlier today I dispatched DOO at a quiet station, everyone waiting on the platform got on, no one got off, I counted five seconds (we are already past the departure time so not even in the 30 seconds early period), closed the doors, all clear, off we go, look back as in the rules and someone has run to the train and is now walking along with it pushing a door button in the minuscule bit of time that has passed. What do i do? Stop in case they fall? If we take this to its logical conclusion nothing will move. And that was a quiet period at a sparsely used station. And as an aside, WHY do people try the door buttons once they have closed or the train is moving off? Do people think the doors are actually unlocked and all we have done is close them not lock them? Do they really think a train would run around with the doors unlocked like that? Post slam doors.

 

[muz379]

How about DOO from platforms with a locally monitored level crossing immediately beyond the end of the platform? How do I look back to monitor the corridor as I depart and monitor the crossing?

What do you check last before you take power the crossing or the PTI ?

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

What do you check last before you take power the crossing or the PTI ?

And there is the rub, **** up on either one due to the fact of human evolutionary development that we do not have forward and rearward facing eyes, both able to assimilate information independently and we face a potential five years of painful anal sex every time we go for a shower.

 

[HowardGWR]

and we face a potential five years of painful anal sex every time we go for a shower.

I just am dismayed that people think it's funny to indulge this appalling crime as a joke and see it as an 'extra' penalty for being sent to jail. Especially on this subject, when some here are trying to convince us of their responsible attitude to safety, it doesn't help their case in my view to then indulge in pub humour.

 

[A-driver]

Well the first test of this stance may be sooner than people think. I have it on very good authority (although can't find a link) that GTR have announced they are looking to extend DOO on their network (or southern). If this 'friendship' between unions is what it is advertised as then drivers won't be crossing the picket lines either.

 

[HH]

Well the first test of this stance may be sooner than people think. I have it on very good authority (although can't find a link) that GTR have announced they are looking to extend DOO on their network (or southern). If this 'friendship' between unions is what it is advertised as then drivers won't be crossing the picket lines either.

Is this really a surprise? It was pretty much stipulated by DfT that there would be an increase in DOO; the only question was how much would you do. AFAIK bidders generally went much less further than DfT wanted.

 

[Hadders]

You may think I'm crazy but I feel like its only a matter of time before a second member of staff is re-introduced on all London services. DfT and TfLs possition maybe anti-guard, but positions change with new governments, even within the same government term. The calls keep coming for more accessible railway staff, women only carriages, more policing, checking tickets and of course like said above in emergencies. LO and GTR staffing stations first train to last may be good, but that doesn't help if a DOO service driver is seriously injured in the middle of nowhere or there are disruptives/vandals on-board. Honestly I don't mind having no staff at some stations like Knockholt or Emerson Park 100% of the time, but onboard trains just seem different.

Whether that second member of staff does door duties is up for debate, but I can't see this zero staff visible nonsense carrying on much longer. Its only right unions have said this. More and more pressure for second staff members will build.

I can't see this happening. We've had DOO on Great Northern for over 20 years without major incident so I don't see it changing.

Thing is, you'd think it was the nasty private operators that were responsible for the majority of DOO conversions when it was in fact that nice British Rail that everyone wants back! Had BR not have been privatised I suspect it would only be inter-city services being operated with more than one member of staff on board.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I just am dismayed that people think it's funny to indulge this appalling crime as a joke and see it as an 'extra' penalty for being sent to jail. Especially on this subject, when some here are trying to convince us of their responsible attitude to safety, it doesn't help their case in my view to then indulge in pub humour.

Where is the pub humor ? I wasn't being funny.

FACT if DOO is forced upon me again as a driver after I moved across half the country to get away from DOO, if I make a serious mistake in operating under DOO, I end up in prison with all it's possible consequences

I find nothing funny in that, at all. If I didn't give a toss about safety, I wouldn't object so much to DOO

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And there is the rub, **** up on either one due to the fact of human evolutionary development that we do not have forward and rearward facing eyes, both able to assimilate information independently

Would you think it would be worth considering having sets of well-trained depot chameleons acting as "second man", as they could obviate the sight problems you raise....

I do have a sense of humour, despite what others might think.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Where is the pub humor ? I wasn't being funny.

You most certainly were not and I am most surprised that you chose to use the anal sex comment in your posting, when you could have well used other comparisons.

 

[Carlisle]

Is this really a surprise? It was pretty much stipulated by DfT that there would be an increase in DOO; the only question was how much would you do. AFAIK bidders generally went much less further than DfT wanted.

Yes , i think it's been discussed here before that the franchise states all Thameslink services are planned to be DOO ,not sure about Southern services

 

[455driver]

Would you think it would be worth considering having sets of well-trained depot chameleons acting as "second man", as they could obviate the sight problems you raise....

I do have a sense of humour, despite what others might think.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You most certainly were not and I am most surprised that you chose to use the anal sex comment in your posting, when you could have well used other comparisons.

Either way, if the driver makes a mistake they are F###ed!

 

[A-driver]

I can't see this happening. We've had DOO on Great Northern for over 20 years without major incident so I don't see it changing.

Thing is, you'd think it was the nasty private operators that were responsible for the majority of DOO conversions when it was in fact that nice British Rail that everyone wants back! Had BR not have been privatised I suspect it would only be inter-city services being operated with more than one member of staff on board.

The GN may have had DOO for many years however in recent years it's become so busy and incidents of people being dragged in doors are becoming more common-almost certainly due to the increase in passengers. The DOO equipment is so out of date now and useless in the peaks with a huge increase in delays due to drivers having to walk the length of a train and manually shut the coaches down as the volume of passengers makes it impossible to see the entire train.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Would you think it would be worth considering having sets of well-trained depot chameleons acting as "second man", as they could obviate the sight problems you raise....

I do have a sense of humour, despite what others might think.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You most certainly were not and I am most surprised that you chose to use the anal sex comment in your posting, when you could have well used other comparisons.

whose making a comparison ? I make a genuine mistake driving DOO recent evidence shows that as a result I end up in prison and my and I suspect. most others fear would be getting analy raped in there. Do you run that risk as a result of a mistake at work ?

 

[323235]

The Northern guards revenue issue is easily solved by allowing them to work from any panel in the train and also putting in panels at every door (or alternate door) like they have on other TOCs. I work the same stock as Northern and have no issues with covering revenue and doing the doors in a timely manner, so it's more a case of the management at Northern preventing their guards from being more efficient.

Absolutely, FGW and ATW had no problem doing this so why haven't Northern?

Then again we still appear at present to have the local policy on Northern of doors to be closed from the very rear of the train unless a 323/333 or similar or if it is a curved platform and the guard must be in the rear portion of multiple connected non-gangway units at all times.

When will that get lifted , it has been in since the James Street incident on Merseyrail.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

whose making a comparison ? I make a genuine mistake driving DOO recent evidence shows that as a result I end up in prison and my and I suspect. Most others fear would be getting analy raped in there. Do you run that risk as a result of a mistake at work ?

You know quite well that I retired in 2010, yet you still persist in your view that I am still in employment, as shown in the final sentence of your posting above.

Can you clarify what you mean by "and my and I suspect" that you state at the end of a sentence where incarceration in a prison is stated, as I do not fully comprehend what it is you are trying to say by the use of that particular phrase.

Incidentally, the correct word to use is "anally"...not "analy".

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

You know quite well that I retired in 2010, yet you still persist in your view that I am still in employment, as shown in the final sentence of your posting above.

Can you clarify what you mean by "and my and I suspect" that you state at the end of a sentence where incarceration in a prison is stated, as I do not fully comprehend what it is you are trying to say by the use of that particular phrase.

Incidentally, the correct word to use is "anally"...not "analy".

it was typed on a very small screen having a wake up coffee in the messroom, when knakered at 0530 this morning on the end of a turn where I left the house at 1700 the day before, so apologies for the poor diction and crossed eyes. I'm up 5 hours later as my sleep patterns are shot so I will revisit the prior post after breakfast and an attempt at more sleep

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

it was typed on a very small screen having a wake up coffee in the messroom, when knakered at 0530 this morning on the end of a turn where I left the house at 1700 the day before, so apologies for the poor diction and crossed eyes. I'm up 5 hours later as my sleep patterns are shot so I will revisit the prior post after breakfast and an attempt at more sleep

You did, to be perfectly fair, raise the fear of being sodomised when in prison, as part of your earlier posting and I wonder if you have conveyed this very real fear to your local branch official to raise on the members behalf, in case the union has not fully comprehended the worries of their membership on that particular issue.

 

[Phil.]

Here's the thing. What is constantly raised is the scenario of the driver closing the doors, obtaining interlock and starting to move off before a lemming like passenger tries opening a door by trotting alongside pushing a door button before tripping and falling under the train. That's a fair and proper observation.
Now let us look at a train with a conductor leaving an un-platformstaffed station - and there's no shortage of them on the Southern with their 378 stock and on SWT with their 440/50/58 stock.
The conductor checks that all is clear, closes the doors, has one last look, closes his door and gives the driver two on the bell. That train is now effectively DOO as the conductor can't look out to see that the train is departing, " in a safe and proper manner". In fact even if he could he has no access to a brake valve as he had in days of yore with a lemming and can only give the driver one on the bell.
Unfortunately the facts and records prove that for every Hayes and Harlington there's a St. James' Square.
DOO is a deeply decisive issue at all levels but I still don't think that it is inherently any unsafer than that what is happening with a train staffed by a guard now at unstaffed stations due to the design of modern stock. If a guard is going to be provided then surely the best way of working is the system the GWR uses on the North Downs lines which is driver release, guard close from the cab where he can look out after final door closure.

 

[SPADTrap]

Here's the thing. What is constantly raised is the scenario of the driver closing the doors, obtaining interlock and starting to move off before a lemming like passenger tries opening a door by trotting alongside pushing a door button before tripping and falling under the train. That's a fair and proper observation.
Now let us look at a train with a conductor leaving an un-platformstaffed station - and there's no shortage of them on the Southern with their 378 stock and on SWT with their 440/50/58 stock.
The conductor checks that all is clear, closes the doors, has one last look, closes his door and gives the driver two on the bell. That train is now effectively DOO as the conductor can't look out to see that the train is departing, " in a safe and proper manner". In fact even if he could he has no access to a brake valve as he had in days of yore with a lemming and can only give the driver one on the bell.
Unfortunately the facts and records prove that for every Hayes and Harlington there's a St. James' Square.
DOO is a deeply decisive issue at all levels but I still don't think that it is inherently any unsafer than that what is happening with a train staffed by a guard now at unstaffed stations due to the design of modern stock. If a guard is going to be provided then surely the best way of working is the system the GWR uses on the North Downs lines which is driver release, guard close from the cab where he can look out after final door closure.

Or just modify crew working so the guard can observe the PTI from a droplight window.

 

[455driver]

Here's the thing. What is constantly raised is the scenario of the driver closing the doors, obtaining interlock and starting to move off before a lemming like passenger tries opening a door by trotting alongside pushing a door button before tripping and falling under the train. That's a fair and proper observation.
Now let us look at a train with a conductor leaving an un-platformstaffed station - and there's no shortage of them on the Southern with their 378 stock and on SWT with their 440/50/58 stock.
The conductor checks that all is clear, closes the doors, has one last look, closes his door and gives the driver two on the bell. That train is now effectively DOO as the conductor can't look out to see that the train is departing, " in a safe and proper manner". In fact even if he could he has no access to a brake valve as he had in days of yore with a lemming and can only give the driver one on the bell.
Unfortunately the facts and records prove that for every Hayes and Harlington there's a St. James' Square.
DOO is a deeply decisive issue at all levels but I still don't think that it is inherently any unsafer than that what is happening with a train staffed by a guard now at unstaffed stations due to the design of modern stock. If a guard is going to be provided then surely the best way of working is the system the GWR uses on the North Downs lines which is driver release, guard close from the cab where he can look out after final door closure.

And who is at fault for that?
Staff have been campaigning for the trains to have droplights of some description (so they can see) but all modern trains are designed and built without them, that isn't the fault of the staff but is surely degrading the job by stealth!

Oh the guard doesn't close the doors on the North Downs line! :roll:

 

[sarahj]

Well the news today regarding Southern and DOO is not good is all I'm going to say on the matter.

And btw, yes, we can stop a train and I have.

 

[Phil.]

And who is at fault for that?
Staff have been campaigning for the trains to have droplights of some description (so they can see) but all modern trains are designed and built without them, that isn't the fault of the staff but is surely degrading the job by stealth!

The guard's job has been de-graded for the last thirty years. No parcels, no mail, no livestock, no train preparation, not even a brake continuity test and with the advent of modern signalling there's not really a need for a train to be guarded anymore which is why he was titled a guard in the first place.

Oh the guard doesn't close the doors on the North Downs line! :roll:

No, but he signals the driver to close them so it's the guard's decision to close them/have them closed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well the news today regarding Southern and DOO is not good is all I'm going to say on the matter.

And btw, yes, we can stop a train and I have.

From an intermediate coach.Enlighten please. I have mentioned giving the driver one on the bell but conductors that I've observed tend to whip the key out as soon as they've sent a ding-ding.

 

[8J]

I've seen many a guard stop a train on stock with droplights windows and those without up here in northern-land. Personally I think that DOO isn't as safe as guard operation of doors and we have to look at the number of incidents of wrong side door release or releasing at a 4 board when you've got an 8 coach train. The number of times I've been on a guard operated train and the driver has stopped short is very high.

 

[craigybagel]

From an intermediate coach.Enlighten please. I have mentioned giving the driver one on the bell but conductors that I've observed tend to whip the key out as soon as they've sent a ding-ding.

I can think of at least one other way that would definitely stop the train quicker than one on the bell at an intermediate panel. There is another way that works as well on the trains I sign with intermediate panels, but I'm not sure if it works on 377s or not.

 

[ComUtoR]

Well the news today regarding Southern and DOO is not good is all I'm going to say on the matter.

What happened ?

PM pretty please pretty lady.

 

[theageofthetra]

I may have mentioned before that on Sydney commuter trains the guards dispatch with a door open at most of the stations I saw in a recent visit. The train arrives with the door open too so the guard can observe the PTI.

 

[455driver]

I may have mentioned before that on Sydney commuter trains the guards dispatch with a door open at most of the stations I saw in a recent visit. The train arrives with the door open too so the guard can observe the PTI.

Which is the way I was taught on 455s.

 

[sarahj]

No, but he signals the driver to close them so it's the guard's decision to close them/have them closed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


From an intermediate coach.Enlighten please. I have mentioned giving the driver one on the bell but conductors that I've observed tend to whip the key out as soon as they've sent a ding-ding.

Then those are naughty conductors. You should remain at your panel observing the station until you are clear and I leave the key in as well.. There are other ways than the bell, which I've used, (kids arsing around). but would not discuss that on an open forum, tho' I'm sure others can guess. The safest way to dispatch a 377 is in the rear cab. Window can be opened and you have the bell and the emergency stop button. The bell again has worked for me during an urgent stop. (drunk football fan and kids arsing around). When your full and standing and full of football fans. Safest way by miles.

 

[reb0118]

Incidentally, the correct word to use is "anally"...not "analy".

A wee bit anal Paul?

 

[northwichcat]

Just noticed this in the LM franchise consultation:

At the moment it is difficult for staff on some trains to spend more time passing through
carriages as they are required to operate doors, dispatch trains and in some cases
make next stop announcements. Therefore one way that bidders might wish to explore
is looking at how some of these responsibilities can be picked up by other staff. For
example, door operation and dispatch of the train could be undertaken by the driver
rather than the conductor in what is known as “driver controlled operation” (DCO).