ASLEF and RMT agree: no more DOO or DCO

[muz379]

There are so many pages to wade through now but, if it has been mentioned before excuse me, I saw a post on another Forum of great interest.
The members of the unions are responsible to their employers, TOCs or Network Rail for example. These are the bodies with which the Unions have to negotiate with but it was suggested that if the DaFT specified DOO or DCO in the Franchise Agreements then that is the a form of Contract to which the TOCs have to work to. The Unions do not negotiate with DFT as they are not their members employers, so if the TOCs have to work to the Agreement there is nothing the Unions could do about. I could be wrong, of course.

I dont think there is much in that , the TOCS do have to work to the franchise spec and particulars of their winning bid which is between them and the DFT . But in order to do this they then have to negotiate terms and conditions which allow for that with their employees and their representatives . Take the expansion of Sunday services in this next franchise , the franchise bidder is going to have to negotiate an agreement on this with their staff . Incidentally I think that Sundays will be one of the first things that causes tension between the new franchise and the unions .

 

[gtr driver]

If someone can put a proper argument why DCO (opposed to DOO) won't work with proper impartial references and statistics I'll listen but 169 posts in to this thread no-one has done that.

Okay, well I’m a DOO driver, so I’m probably not impartial to your way of thinking, but I am at least informed by my experience, and if you’re never been a DOO driver, then bluntly, I’m more informed than you on this matter.

Tell me who’s impartial? Those on the government and TOC side stand to save money out of DOO and those on the staff side either lose their job or gain unwanted responsibilities, sometimes for more pay. Passengers gain nothing but a loss of some amenity as the lower salary bill certainly won’t be used to reduce their ticket price.

Stats? Well if I drive 1000 trains and no one gets hurt or killed it’s little comfort to me when someone dies on the 1001st trip because I didn’t see them run for the train after I’d moved off. Absolute stats are no use here, it’s about risk reduction, and DOO increases risk.

But if you insist here are some reasons:

We are generally expected to rely on methods of viewing the side of the train which are less satisfactory than a human being standing on the platform. A battered mirror which a driver thinks he can see 8 BIL lights in but as they are a bit dazzling it’s best to wait until his eyes get used to the dark. Monitor pictures that are a bit dark in the middle of the platform. Curved platforms that mean passengers obscure a part of the train. All of this raises risk and causes delay. We can get out on to the platform and even walk back and close each door individually, but it will bring the railway to a halt if everyone does it. In other words some risk is expected to be borne to keep things moving. Well that was great until recent incidents started to make it clear that the driver is likely to be held responsible for everyone that happens even if it’s beyond his reasonable control.

Drunk people deciding to muck around, stagger along the train, fall off the train. What does the driver do? Assume they’re okay once they’re clear? Brave man in these times as we’re now seemingly expected to take responsibility for other people’s actions now. Two people are helpful if for nothing else to back up the other’s account of events. But were more useful for being able to see what’s happening as the train moves off and stop it if necessary. Quite useful for sober people too, knowing that someone’s seen them when they run at a departing train and slip into the gap. Still at least when you dash for a closing door and a tragedy happens you can blame the driver even though you heard the hustle alarm because it’s his fault.

And that’s just dispatch. Inside the train on these parts, DOO means you are truly on your own. There is no one to check tickets. To come to your aid if you fall ill. To deter anti social behaviour. To help you with your luggage or pram. Even to help you if you’ve got on the wrong train because when you get off you might be lucky to find any station staff.

As for being in a wheelchair, forget even travelling if you haven’t booked ahead. The driver can’t get out and put a ramp down for you.

And you are truly abandoned if there is a fault or major issue. Frankly, the driver is too busy talking to signallers or fitters and trying to get the train moving again to give you any attention. He can’t do all those things at once.

Make no mistake. Driver Only Operation is only about saving money. It is an immediate loss of facility for passengers and a heap of extra trouble for the driver.


"Ah a sensible comment. With the number of unstaffed stations having only 1 member of staff on board would probably breach the government's own Equalities Act as who would assist disabled passengers at unstaffed stations? The driver? Other passengers?"

And a sensible comment from you at last? Guess what? Plenty of trains with only one staff member on board. No one helps if you don't book ahead, I've had no choice but to abandon people as I'm not allowed to help. Doesn't make you feel great as a human being or as a professional driver, but to quote A Driver, the people deciding these things are a million miles from the front line.

 

[74A]

Stats? Well if I drive 1000 trains and no one gets hurt or killed it’s little comfort to me when someone dies on the 1001st trip because I didn’t see them run for the train after I’d moved off. Absolute stats are no use here, it’s about risk reduction, and DOO increases risk.

I am afraid the person running for the train after the doors are safely closed is not considered in the despatch. If it was then the TV monitors would not go off as soon as the train has left the platform. Also if this was a concern then every time a train passed through a station at slow speed then someone would have to look out and watch the train through the platform which they don't.

Despatch is considered finished after you have shut the doors and checked that no one is stuck in them. If someone runs towards the train after you have taken power then that is a separate event.

 

[gtr driver]

I am afraid the person running for the train after the doors are safely closed is not considered in the despatch. If it was then the TV monitors would not go off as soon as the train has left the platform. Also if this was a concern then every time a train passed through a station at slow speed then someone would have to look out and watch the train through the platform which they don't.

Despatch is considered finished after you have shut the doors and checked that no one is stuck in them. If someone runs towards the train after you have taken power then that is a separate event.

Well thank you for that point of order. Again, it's not much comfort.

 

[FordFocus]

That is now a very grey area, when you press the door close button and sometime runs for the train and injures themselves it's now deemed to be an offense that the guard or driver can be prosecuted for by the CPS, despite been cleared by railway bodies including your own TOC. See the latest Merseyrail incident where the guard is now going to court in January.

 

[muz379]

I am afraid the person running for the train after the doors are safely closed is not considered in the despatch. If it was then the TV monitors would not go off as soon as the train has left the platform. Also if this was a concern then every time a train passed through a station at slow speed then someone would have to look out and watch the train through the platform which they don't.

Despatch is considered finished after you have shut the doors and checked that no one is stuck in them. If someone runs towards the train after you have taken power then that is a separate event.

Although with a guard and a platform dispatcher present in that instance there is still a chance that the dispatcher could give the stop signal to the guard who could then stop the train

With just a driver and a dispatcher unless there are technological changes once the driver has started looking at the road ahead the train cannot be stopped

Is this not one of the reasons we have dispatchers at busy mainline stations ?

 

[gtr driver]

Although with a guard and a platform dispatcher present in that instance there is still a chance that the dispatcher could give the stop signal to the guard who could then stop the train

With just a driver and a dispatcher unless there are technological changes once the driver has started looking at the road ahead the train cannot be stopped

Is this not one of the reasons we have dispatchers at busy mainline stations ?

It's more to do with some places being too busy for one person to do the job satisfactorily (sometimes this is only at peak times.)

 

[driver_m]

I work DCO. The platforms I work are mostly able to do CD/RA (close doors/right away). Now what do you think a company could possibly want to do somewhere down the line? (No pun intended). It's blatantly obvious what DCO would be brought in for.

I'll be damned if I'm going to ever agree to DOO and jcollins proposal for a dispatcher instead of a guard suggested earlier is quite frankly laughable. Imagine Platform 13/14 at man picc and think seriously about that proposal again. In the current climate where a guard doing his job is facing prosecution, no one would agree to that.

 

[Carlisle]

- The infrastructure costs on new DOO installations is huge, you can't get away with a misty mirror ?

Not really ,all passenger lines (except RETB routes) and stock are already fitted with GSMR , many stations have had new lights installed in recent times too ,so the cost of installing bodyside cameras and reinstating driver door controls I agree, won't be cheap but shouldn't be horrendous either

 

[Gareth Marston]

Not really ,all passenger lines (except RETB routes) and stock are already fitted with GSMR , many stations have had new lights installed in recent times too ,so the cost of installing bodyside cameras and reinstating driver door controls I agree, won't be cheap but shouldn't be horrendous either

it will if Network Rail quotes for it

 

[craigybagel]

Not really ,all passenger lines (except RETB routes) and stock are already fitted with GSMR , many stations have had new lights installed in recent times too ,so the cost of installing bodyside cameras and reinstating driver door controls I agree, won't be cheap but shouldn't be horrendous either

They don't seem able to find the funds to resignal Stockport, yet as it stands the 5 AB boxes there are a barrier to DOO, at least unless they change the rules.

 

[muz379]

Not really ,all passenger lines (except RETB routes) and stock are already fitted with GSMR , many stations have had new lights installed in recent times too ,so the cost of installing bodyside cameras and reinstating driver door controls I agree, won't be cheap but shouldn't be horrendous either

and what about the curved platforms of which there are many . And many stations I know of which whilst having had recent updates still have woefully inadequate station lighting which is also very sporadic in its operation

that being said the investment costs are not really an issue because everybody knows implementing it is going to require significant up front capital .

The elephant in the room is the supposed reduction in ongoing operating costs . This is the reason that the DFT is so convinced that DCO/DOO are the way forward , because they think it is going to lead to a reduction in subsidy

 

[craigybagel]

That is now a very grey area, when you press the door close button and sometime runs for the train and injures themselves it's now deemed to be an offense that the guard or driver can be prosecuted for by the CPS, despite been cleared by railway bodies including your own TOC. See the latest Merseyrail incident where the guard is now going to court in January.

I suspect the unions current hostility towards DOO is nothing compared to the storm they'll kick up if that case goes ahead.

 

[Gareth Marston]

and what about the curved platforms of which there are many . And many stations I know of which whilst having had recent updates still have woefully inadequate station lighting which is also very sporadic in its operation

that being said the investment costs are not really an issue because everybody knows implementing it is going to require significant up front capital .

The elephant in the room is the supposed reduction in ongoing operating costs . This is the reason that the DFT is so convinced that DCO/DOO are the way forward , because they think it is going to lead to a reduction in subsidy

In isolation it looks a good idea but they seem not to realise the interdependency on other factors.

 

[ComUtoR]

That is now a very grey area, when you press the door close button and sometime runs for the train

We now have a policy that encompasses this very point. If someone is running for the train then you must not press that little button that closes the doors. Grey doesn't begin to describe the new policy that has been introduced.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

At the end of the day introducing DOO to where I drive - I used to drive DOO elsewhere - puts my personal risk of a despatch/ door incident from virtually zero to a virtual certainty. Somewhere, at some time with all the consequences stemming from that . And why ? To put a few quid in a shareholders pocket ? I wonder how many of our armchair pro DOO Richard heads on here would be happy with a similar correlation in their job ?

 

[A-driver]

Not really ,all passenger lines (except RETB routes) and stock are already fitted with GSMR , many stations have had new lights installed in recent times too ,so the cost of installing bodyside cameras and reinstating driver door controls I agree, won't be cheap but shouldn't be horrendous either

You are too gullible in believing everything you read. GSMR is a LONG way off being useable. The amount of delays and cancellations we get on the GN due to faulty GSMR signal is huge. We can't run DOO when we loose signal so have to run ECS instead. In fact, some Scandinavian countries are currently looking into getting rid of GSMR as its so unreliable. CSR was certainly much more reliable on the GN route than GSMR is. It works fine miles from any other railway but sit in kings X platform and you can end up connecting to kings X, ashford, West Hampstead, Liverpool Street or wilsden box. Other areas geographically close to other lines cause similar problems.

Platform lighting is a national issue and currently on the GN lighting upgrades have made sighting worse to the extent our TOC is now having to pay vast sums of money to train up and employ dispatch staff at a long list of stations previously run by drivers self dispatching.

If anything, DOO is going backwards at present!

 

[HH]

And why ? To put a few quid in a shareholders pocket ?

No. It's to cut the cost to the taxpayer. The passion for DOO stems from the DfT.

 

[LowLevel]

You are too gullible in believing everything you read. GSMR is a LONG way off being useable. The amount of delays and cancellations we get on the GN due to faulty GSMR signal is huge. We can't run DOO when we loose signal so have to run ECS instead. In fact, some Scandinavian countries are currently looking into getting rid of GSMR as its so unreliable. CSR was certainly much more reliable on the GN route than GSMR is. It works fine miles from any other railway but sit in kings X platform and you can end up connecting to kings X, ashford, West Hampstead, Liverpool Street or wilsden box. Other areas geographically close to other lines cause similar problems.

Platform lighting is a national issue and currently on the GN lighting upgrades have made sighting worse to the extent our TOC is now having to pay vast sums of money to train up and employ dispatch staff at a long list of stations previously run by drivers self dispatching.

If anything, DOO is going backwards at present!

GSMR is is brilliant when it works - but it seems to have a ridiculous number of unknown quantities. For example like last week when it totally failed all the way from Alnmouth to Darlington. We still have sections of route where it doesn't work frequently - there's lots of issues with registering and de registering at Matlock which has seen several trains stranded up there unable to move.

 

[Tetchytyke]

We now have a policy that encompasses this very point. If someone is running for the train then you must not press that little button that closes the doors. Grey doesn't begin to describe the new policy that has been introduced.

It's not that grey; the person "running" for the doors at Hamilton Square was an 88-year-old lady.

I'd say TPE's disciplinary action against a guard at Grimsby was less justified.

 

[ComUtoR]

It's not that grey; the person "running" for the doors at Hamilton Square was an 88-year-old lady.

Er. I'm not commenting on the incident. Not sure where you got that impression.

 

[dalesrail]

Does anybody know if the Northern rule regarding the guard not dispatching from the front door still applies to the 319's?

I've noticed quite a few guards walking from the front carriage to the rearmost door of the third carriage before dispatching the train. I've never really understood how this makes things safer, it just seems to slow things down.

 

[Carlisle]

GSMR is a LONG way off being useable. The amount of delays and cancellations we get on the GN due to faulty GSMR signal is huge. !

So let's hope Network Rail are getting seriously reimbursed by the kits manufacturers/suppliers if they've spent billions on a system that in reality , doesn't preform anything like it should

 

[muz379]

I always was taught not to press the button if you could see someone is running for your train and would certainly expect to be in deep water If I saw someone on the platform making a run for the train , pressed the button and then the person became injured bouncing off the doors or getting trapped in the doors .

The issue at Hamilton square seems to be that he pressed the button when he thought nobody was running for his train .

Merseyrail are of the opinion that he has done nothing wrong. As much as one can criticize an internal investigation as being biased I think that is at best naive given the recent history on merseyrail and the fact that DOO is very much hot topic for them at the moment . Would they really risk the ORR coming in and deciding that their internal investigation was not done properly in the wake of James street .

Does anybody know if the Northern rule regarding the guard not dispatching from the front door still applies to the 319's?

I've noticed quite a few guards walking from the front carriage to the rearmost door of the third carriage before dispatching the train. I've never really understood how this makes things safer, it just seems to slow things down.

That rule still stands .

And as a 4 car unit my understanding of the rule is that the furthest forward the guard may work their doors from is the rear doors on the second carriage so a little over half way down the train .

My understanding is this is so that the guard can monitor the PTI when the train is departing , being close to the middle means you get to see at least half of the platform and monitor for any incidents when the train is departing .

So let's hope Network Rail are getting seriously reimbursed by the manufacturers/suppliers if they've spent billions on a system that in reality , doesn't preform anything like it should

This is public sector procurement , the contract will be overwhelmingly in favor of the supplier .

 

[A-driver]

So let's hope Network Rail are getting seriously reimbursed by the kits manufacturers/suppliers if they've spent billions on a system that in reality , doesn't preform anything like it should

I highly doubt it. But they are certainly paying heavy penalties for the delays the system is causing.

 

[reb0118]

DOO trains have worked perfectly well on the biggest network outside London for decades.

It may well be regarded as safe but it is not as safe as the traditional method of train working - a minimum of a driver & guard.

The Strathclyde network is as safe as any guard operated route......

No, not true. One man operation is inherently less safer than two man operation. And, yes, there are frequent examples every day of "Strathclyde Manned Services" running without a T.E. either in part or in their entirety. The only penalty to ScotRail for this is a financial one but crucially only if caught by the SQUIRE Inspectorate - and there are only a handful of inspectors who now have to cover the whole of Scotland so the chance of detection, albeit if caught is draconian, is very slight.

Secondly the second man when provided is not trained to the higher standards required from a guard and is technically a glorified passenger in the case of an emergency situation. That said in fairness to my colleagues, IMO, most T.E.s would be an asset when working under the instruction of their driver.

Significantly it has been reported to me (anecdotally it must be said) by certain drivers at DOO depot that there are more passengers (generally late runners after the Driver has initiated his CD (close doors) procedure) caught in the doors as they close under the DOO system. This is due to the trainside cameras having a limited area of sight unlike a human guard with peripheral vision. Whilst AFAIAA no passengers have been dragged away by moving trains in Scotland the potential is there as has been seen on other operators services.

........and the driver doesn't even need to stick his/her head in to the Scottish weather any more.

I could be wrong but does the driver not have to step onto the platform when working certain "Cathcart Circle" and associated runs? Generally with the older stock. I have certainly witnessed this myself on the odd trip to Mount Florida for the football. I've not been for a while but I'm sure that when newer stock arrives on that route in will no longer be necessary.

For what it's worth I always patrol my train unless I can't get down it because it's wedged, and even then I walk alongside it frequently at stations to make sure all is well. A lack of working Avantix is not an excuse not to patrol.

I've never come close to coming a cropper yet and if a riot is brewing I want to know about it well before someone pulls the passcom and I have to wade into it to get the train into a position to get help anyway.

I don't always do tickets but even then frequently I do, albeit in a more lax way than I normally might.

I've been abused and physically assaulted before, every occasion has been on a weekday daytime thus far.

While as the guard I may not generally be expected to physically intervene, I will judge every situation individually and where necessary act.

I like this post.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I am afraid the person running for the train after the doors are safely closed is not considered in the despatch. If it was then the TV monitors would not go off as soon as the train has left the platform. Also if this was a concern then every time a train passed through a station at slow speed then someone would have to look out and watch the train through the platform which they don't.

Despatch is considered finished after you have shut the doors and checked that no one is stuck in them. If someone runs towards the train after you have taken power then that is a separate event.

That may be the case in DOO areas, but it is certainly not the case in DGO areas, where the issue of people on platforms when the train is arriving and departing stations is of great concern. Recent incidents in the area I work have included people falling between the trains and platforms while they have been arriving and departing, running along the side of the train and potentially falling, people banging on the side of the train as it moves off - all of which have seen the Guard intervene to prevent a more serious incident. In early August there were a flurry of incidents where the actions of the Guard were praised and prevented more serious incident. I know from seeing more details of these that these incidents that in many of these cases - even with in cab CCTV - the driver of a DOO train would not necessarily have been in a position to have seen and intervened.

And DCO is effectively DOO as there is no guarantee that somebody else will be on the train. And then who will deal with the wheelchairs etc at the unstaffed stations, for a start? And certainly no guarantee that somebody else with any safety competence or suitable knowledge will be on the train, which if I was a driver and my train hit a tree in the countryside in a remote area, when it was fully loaded with passengers, I would want to know there was.

 

[gtr driver]

I'm both interested and slightly horrified to hear that some TOCs are forbidding door closures if there are runners...surely there's a limitless supply of runners during the rush hour at London stations? No wonder delays only get worse. I've been given no guideance on this; but I now don't move if someone hangs around at the side of the train refusing to accept that the doors have shut, stabbing away at the buttons. To think that I used to go to work on trains that you could jump out of before they'd stopped but at no point think that anyone else would be to blame if someone happened to me. Truth is many metro stations are now more like the Underground than "classical" railway stations, certainly in the peak, and we need to look at how they cope down there.

 

[FordFocus]

^This

When is the cut off point? So many times you see it where a door has closed in front of someone.

RAIB have released Urgent Safety Advice following someone been dragged down a platform at Hayes and Harlington. DOO CCTV dispatch and all that..............

 

[Panupreset]

How about the situation where in the pm peak an operator has decided DOO trains must be dispatched by platform staff. But in the morning peak on the same platform platform staff not provided to dispatch the train.

DOO from platforms on your right hand side. Once you sit in the seat you have no idea what is going on.

How about DOO from platforms with a locally monitored level crossing immediately beyond the end of the platform? How do I look back to monitor the corridor as I depart and monitor the crossing?

DOO is a minefield.