Arriva's revamped website

[upasalmon]

Buses are currently not able to drop passengers in the bus station at Derby due to social distancing, they are using stops outside which may be the reason for the stop being omitted. I agree something kore meaningful could be used.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2020 ==


In fairness would anyone have ever said they liked it even if they did?
New website = excuse for a moan!

I liked the previous website!

 

[RELL6L]

Thew new website is indescribably bad. I don't really know where to start.
Select any region and service updates - it says there aren't any. But in Yorkshire there are several, accessible on this website but not through service updates.

And the timetables, they are just dreadful. They have so much wrong information, misleading information, impossibly badly presented.

Just take a couple, which I have chosen because I went on them last week (I might write about the day).
First the Selby 401. The route is described as Selby to "Airmyn A614". Utter tosh, it goes to Goole. There is one short journey which terminates at Airmyn A614. In fact the distinguishing feature of the 401 is that it doesn't go to Airmyn, the 400 does. Needless to say the 400 journeys are not included, without which it is nonsense. Then it says it runs until 28 October. No, it changes next week. Some of the journeys are marked as non schooldays. Some of them are indeed non schooldays, eg the 16.00 from Goole, but not shown is the schoolday version which differs slightly at the Selby end. But others, eg the 09.05 from Goole, also shown as non schooldays, runs every day. All Saturday journeys are shown as "Only during bank holidays" - what drivel! And then it includes all stops, including three at "Goole Boothferry Road", and there are other examples.
Secondly the 163 from Leeds to Castleford. This runs alternately with the 166, but that is shown separately (although it does mention it is linked, unlike the 400/401). And when you open it up it has evening journeys first (daily ones, but described as bank holidays only) then Monday to Friday journeys, then some journeys which are the same on Saturdays and Sundays, finally some Saturday morning ones. And inevitably some journeys depart from Castleford Bus Station but others depart from a different place, Castleford Bus Station! No doubt a different stand, but that information isn't given. Others have commented on the sorting of the numbers and absence of lettered routes. I am sure there is far more to find!
I haven't looked at the maps except for these two services, they are total rubbish.

Right on the front page there is a reference to the new X6, click on this and you get a timetable. A perfect timetable, why can't they all be like this? During the lockdown the website gave the timetables in a very useful way, this is terrible.

And speaking of the Yorkshire changes, they are next week. And yet no new timetables on here. Some are on West Yorkshire Metro's site, some are on bustimes, some aren't anywhere yet (eg 164), but none are on Arriva's site!

 

[upasalmon]

Check out the "busandcoachuser" blog who agrees with my original opinion. Sorry I don't know the link.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2020 ==

CORRECTION Its the "busandtrainuser" blog.

 

[py_megapixel]

Yes exactly - an eight page list of every single service in the UK, in incorrect numerical order. What possible use is that of to anyone?!

Ah yes, the classic mistake of sorting numbers alphabetically.

I liked the previous website!

Really?
It was entirely unusable on mobile devices, it was painfully slow, I could never get the journey planner to work and downloading timetables was a pain. Not to mention that it was a complete eyesore!

Sure, the new one is bad. But it's nowhere near as bad as the old one was.

 

[alex397]

In fairness would anyone have ever said they liked it even if they did?
New website = excuse for a moan!

I don’t think it’s like that at all. The new website is pretty terrible, and is not easy to use even for bus enthusiasts. A few of the issues on this website may just be teething issues though, especially if it has been introduced with limited staff around to test it.
There are many new websites from bus companies that have been an improvement. I think the new Stagecoach website was a big improvement from the one before (although not perfect).

 

[carlberry]

Check out the "busandcoachuser" blog who agrees with my original opinion. Sorry I don't know the link.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2020 ==

CORRECTION Its the "busandtrainuser" blog.

You mean the one in posts 23, 24 and 25.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Right on the front page there is a reference to the new X6, click on this and you get a timetable. A perfect timetable, why can't they all be like this? During the lockdown the website gave the timetables in a very useful way, this is terrible.

Interestingly the timetables available online during lockdown have been public timetables run straight from Trapeze (in pdf format) so presumably someone from marketing at each region had been uploading them to the website with each revision.

 

[cnjb8]

Tried the new site today, to make a long story short I got very frustrated! Definitely prefer the old site and I despise the old one.

 

[Andy Pacer]

One plus from me (sorry for that), I have found the timetables are at least now in order, previously some of the timing points were jumbled up (not in time order). I would like them to get rid of the all stops thing and concentrate just the principle timing points.

 

[Typhoon]

Tried the new site today, to make a long story short I got very frustrated! Definitely prefer the old site and I despise the old one.

I am assuming that you have an interest in and knowledge of public transport as you post to this forum. So what chance the occasional traveler?

Was this not tested with a group of typical members of the public? Or was it just rolled out because someone at the top said it had to be completed by the end of August?

I did find it easier to use this morning but that may be because I knew exactly what I was looking for (service number, eventual destination, stop name) the average user won't. I hope they have increased their Customer Services team.

One plus from me (sorry for that), I have found the timetables are at least now in order, previously some of the timing points were jumbled up (not in time order). I would like them to get rid of the all stops thing and concentrate just the principle timing points.

I thought it was slightly easier to use, too, but this should have been sorted before it went live. The bad publicity, here and elsewhere, will not go away.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I thought it was slightly easier to use, too, but this should have been sorted before it went live. The bad publicity, here and elsewhere, will not go away.

The timetable thing was an observation of new website vs the old one, where the TXC published timetable pdfs were most confusing at times.

 

[mildertduck]

I do wonder what proportion of bus users actually use the timetable these days. When the strike happened last year, I shared the emergency timetable with my local residents group, and (I wish I was joking) was asked how one goes about using it.
Everyone seems to be so used to journey planners now, I suspect that is the default approach for many users... me included, I tend to use the transport planner on Google maps!

 

[Andy Pacer]

I do wonder what proportion of bus users actually use the timetable these days. When the strike happened last year, I shared the emergency timetable with my local residents group, and (I wish I was joking) was asked how one goes about using it.
Everyone seems to be so used to journey planners now, I suspect that is the default approach for many users... me included, I tend to use the transport planner on Google maps!

It's an interesting point, I know some areas have abolished the publication of paper timetables using the claim nobody uses them as the justification.

 

[Robertj21a]

It's an interesting point, I know some areas have abolished the publication of paper timetables using the claim nobody uses them as the justification.

Perhaps they would be proved right if the operators could come up with good quality, user friendly, timetables on their websites. The timetables and maps on some websites are often not much use to the potential user.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Perhaps they would be proved right if the operators could come up with good quality, user friendly, timetables on their websites. The timetables and maps on some websites are often not much use to the potential user.

Agreed, and I think there is some worth in being able to pick up a leaflet when new to an area or visiting it.
In Whitby for example they (usually) have an assortment of leaflets available on the wall outside the staff office in the railway station entrance. Not currently due to odd service levels though.

 

[route101]

I noticed that as well - the X93/X94 are slightly better, but there are still bizarre straight lines between Scarborough, Whitby, Guisborough, and Middlesbrough. Very odd, and not present on their maps before the change.

Its the google track maps. Not particularly accurate. What happened to the FWL maps in the timetables?

Yes . Seems now its all about point to point , get me from exactly here to exactly there, rather than the bigger picture. Journey planner sort of thing.

Stagecoach website i noted, you had to search the number of service rather than look at a list .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2020 ==

Agreed, and I think there is some worth in being able to pick up a leaflet when new to an area or visiting it.
In Whitby for example they (usually) have an assortment of leaflets available on the wall outside the staff office in the railway station entrance. Not currently due to odd service levels though.

Yes , i like that a paper copy showing all services in an area.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This sort of thing will add grist to the mill for Fat Bus Bloke and his blog. Especially as he has been known to take Roger French's stuff and then view it through his own prism.

The old Arriva site was awkward and clunky but it was navigable. This new one is just terrible; it's not intuitive, it's poorly laid out. The list of routes is mind blowing. I just can't see how that has gone through a proper process of establishing needs and requirements of the business and the average punter to determine the objective. It certainly hasn't gone through extensive proofing. Whilst User Acceptance Testing may have been done, I can't see how that has been extended to anyone outside the technical aspects.

I do understand why some operators have dropped printed leaflets though I think there's a place for them (and not just so gricers can collect them). In tourist areas, where passengers don't have that local knowledge, then a small seasonal booklet is even more useful (such as First Wessex, First Kernow, Stagecoach in the Lakes).

However, the internet provides the capability to provide improved and up to date information, which during Covid days has proven to be more important as rapid service reductions and restorations. A source of information that can be updated in minutes, can be accessed on a Sunday or a Tuesday night almost anywhere, without waiting for a travel office or library to open in the nearest town.

A bad website with duff information is no better than printing out of date info in a foreign language. The Arriva site is atrocious.

 

[py_megapixel]

A bad website with duff information is no better than printing out of date info in a foreign language. The Arriva site is atrocious.

Fixed that for you

But, in all seriousness, I couldn't get my head around the old one at all. This one is slightly better IMHO, if not good.

 

[RELL6L]

Frankly it defies belief it's so bad, you would think someone is going to appear and say "April fool".

Just look at the X18 (Newcastle to Berwick via the coast). The timetable is 25 pages. There is a section on pages 16-18 described as Newcastle to Alnwick. But on this we have the order of the timing points as (1) Newcastle to Morpeth Dernside (the stop before the bus station), (2) Widdrington Station to Alnmouth (for just one journey - which I don't believe actually terminates at Alnmouth although the timetable says it does), (3) Alnwick to Seahouses, (4) Seahouses to Berwick, (5) Morpeth Bus Station to Alnwick. So the sections are not in the right order and Widdrington Station to Alnmouth is duplicated (appearing within Morpeth to Alnwick) whereas the one stop from Morpeth Dernside to the bus station is missing altogether. The main Monday to Saturday northbound block also shows Alnwick onwards before Morpeth to Alnwick. This is a great scenic tourist route where people do make long journeys but there is no indication of through journeys. Some journeys transfer sections, eg the 08.08 Newcastle to Alnwick on Saturdays has its Newcastle to Morpeth section on page 16 and its Morpeth to Alnwick section on pages 9-10.

I have the knowledge and experience to work out what's going on, even though it isn't all correct, but the one-off tourist wouldn't stand a chance. Replace the timetables with what there was before (not perfect but usable) now!

 

[Andyh82]

Yes . Seems now its all about point to point , get me from exactly here to exactly there, rather than the bigger picture.

Yes a problem with this is that you don't sell the rest of the network. Yes the customer knows the 10 runs at 8am into town, but do they know all the other journeys, the late night bus on a friday night, the fact you can change somewhere to get to X, or that some journeys extend to Y, and with a day ticket you can actually travel all the way to Z?

I'm hoping more and more companies don't use Covid as an excuse to get rid of paper timetables permanently. Stagecoach SW was particularly drastic, from a lavish set of timetables and maps covering the whole of Devon to nothing in one go.

 

[route101]

Yes a problem with this is that you don't sell the rest of the network. Yes the customer knows the 10 runs at 8am into town, but do they know all the other journeys, the late night bus on a friday night, the fact you can change somewhere to get to X, or that some journeys extend to Y, and with a day ticket you can actually travel all the way to Z?

I'm hoping more and more companies don't use Covid as an excuse to get rid of paper timetables permanently. Stagecoach SW was particularly drastic, from a lavish set of timetables and maps covering the whole of Devon to nothing in one go.

Up here in Scotland , there no paper timetables and was only few paper bus timetables in the bus station. I think Scotrail pretty much stopped printing them after the new year.

Yes i like to look at the bigger picture, i guess some people are stuck in their ways.

 

[py_megapixel]

Yes a problem with this is that you don't sell the rest of the network. Yes the customer knows the 10 runs at 8am into town, but do they know all the other journeys, the late night bus on a friday night, the fact you can change somewhere to get to X, or that some journeys extend to Y, and with a day ticket you can actually travel all the way to Z?

I'm hoping more and more companies don't use Covid as an excuse to get rid of paper timetables permanently. Stagecoach SW was particularly drastic, from a lavish set of timetables and maps covering the whole of Devon to nothing in one go.

I think I know what you mean.

As an example, made with completely random numbers if I want to go from Someplace to Exampletown and I need to arrive at Exampletown at 11am then a journey planner will tell me that bus 406 leaving from Someplace at 10:37 will get me there for 10:53.

But then another I need to be at Exampletown for 9:15 instead. If I'd seen a timetable I would remember that the 406 is half hourly so I need to get the 8:37 instead. But with a journey planner I have to go back to the website and key in all the information instead. It's infuriating.

To summarise: online journey planners tend to drip-feed data. But sometimes I just want to see all the information in one go.

 

[Bill Badger]

Frankly it defies belief it's so bad, you would think someone is going to appear and say "April fool".

Just look at the X18 (Newcastle to Berwick via the coast). The timetable is 25 pages.

Interesting you choose this example. I've recently been tasked by friends to look at the public transport options for a trip to Northumberland in early October and was trying to find the X18 timetable. Started off on the Website then emailing Arriva who replied saying this service wasn't running at all due to Covid......didn't believe them so ended up on bustimes.org!!

Those who don't have some base knowledge don't stand a chance.

 

[Robertj21a]

This sort of thing will add grist to the mill for Fat Bus Bloke and his blog. Especially as he has been known to take Roger French's stuff and then view it through his own prism.

The old Arriva site was awkward and clunky but it was navigable. This new one is just terrible; it's not intuitive, it's poorly laid out. The list of routes is mind blowing. I just can't see how that has gone through a proper process of establishing needs and requirements of the business and the average punter to determine the objective. It certainly hasn't gone through extensive proofing. Whilst User Acceptance Testing may have been done, I can't see how that has been extended to anyone outside the technical aspects.

I do understand why some operators have dropped printed leaflets though I think there's a place for them (and not just so gricers can collect them). In tourist areas, where passengers don't have that local knowledge, then a small seasonal booklet is even more useful (such as First Wessex, First Kernow, Stagecoach in the Lakes).

However, the internet provides the capability to provide improved and up to date information, which during Covid days has proven to be more important as rapid service reductions and restorations. A source of information that can be updated in minutes, can be accessed on a Sunday or a Tuesday night almost anywhere, without waiting for a travel office or library to open in the nearest town.

A bad website with duff information is no better than printing out of date info in a foreign language. The Arriva site is atrocious.

I think you are being unduly kind.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I do understand why some operators have dropped printed leaflets though I think there's a place for them (and not just so gricers can collect them). In tourist areas, where passengers don't have that local knowledge, then a small seasonal booklet is even more useful (such as First Wessex, First Kernow, Stagecoach in the Lakes).

I get why printed leaflets have gone, but I don't get why the properly prepared PDFs have gone. Designing a timetable that is actually readable needs some human interaction.

As for Arriva's method of generating a PDF automatically, there's a wonderful example of the gibberish it produces on the 1 Blyth-Ashington route. Just look at the state of that PDF that I've attached and weep. Each version of the route is listed separately; the buses to Ashington, the buses to the hospital, and the buses to Widdrington are listed in separate sections, even though they are variations of the same route. You open the PDF and it looks like there is one bus a day from Blyth to Ashington at 1818, it runs "MOnday to Sunday" but then the footnote says "only during Bank Holidays". So instead of one bus a day, the first page makes it look like you have eight buses a year. And then you get gibberish like the attached screenshot, which shows that buses from Wansbeck Hospital to Blyth are at 0905, 0925, 1005 and 0945, with that pattern repeated for the day. Aye, right you are.

Who on earth looked at this website, thought it was good enough to be released into the wild, and signed it off as complete?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

OMG

I thought the previous site was bad.

If I knew exactly where I was going from and to, at exactly what time, and that there was absolutely no chance of that changing as the day progressed, then the site may serve a small purpose in life. But only if the data was accurate, which it does not appear to be!

To continue on from @py_megapixel . Perhaps there is also a route 407, which goes along much of the same route as the 406 and goes quite close to my destination but at a better time than the 406. A 45 minute wait after catching the 406, or a 10 minute walk from the 407 but arriving when I want to. My choice I believe. A route map would reveal that route and a full set of timetables for an area would give me the information to make an informed choice.

Hey, bus companies, not all of your customers are the village simpleton, we can work things out for ourselves. Give me the information (in a presentable, usable format) and let me decide what's best for me, based upon my personal preferences (for connections, walk distances, waiting times etc) rather forcing me to rely on your (probably outsourced) IT guru and his mate Algo Rythym!

The timetables give Traveline Scotland a run for their money in incomprehensibility: MX - operates only on Mondays!

Beyond that, just follow the link to Roger French's blog. It says it all.

EDIT

I've just tried it for our local Arriva service: 164 Hanley to Market Drayton (co-joined with: 64 Market Drayton to Shrewsbury).
The downloadable pdf, generated from a database, gives me a two-hourly service (dated June to October).
The journey planner, generated from a database, gives me an hourly service.

Oh my heads hurts, time to lie down in a darkened room.

 

[markymark2000]

In my opinion, the old site wasn't that bad. It was functional and for me, I found what I wanted generally quite easily. I share the view of Busandtrainuser and many on this forum that the new site is atrocious.

Beside the obvious things like showing fares and making maps more accessible, I think the following changes need to be made.

Firstly, it needs to go local.
They have the locate me thing in the top right I see no reason why this feature can't end up working in the same way as Stagecoach whereby it then limits the routes shown by that location, shrinks all the news and service updates and most importantly, shows you fares. Nothing wrong with having a centralised website as long as there are easily accessible local sections which show all the relevant information. I see no reason why they have 'locate me' but then still force you to meander your way through the website to find local information. Clearly they have it when you click to allow Arriva to use your location.

Secondly, route groups need to be condensed together but still searchable on their own.
In many areas you have two or more routes which combine to create a higher frequency on mutual sections. By doing timetables by route group, you are showing passengers more buses per hour that they can use and saving them looking through lots of different timetables. Sometimes you have circulars running opposites so linking them for 'inbound' and 'outbound' timetables would be useful but also instances like have been mentioned above with the Rhyl to Chester 11s. There are officially 6 route numbers here on normal timetables. 11, 11A, 11C, 11F, 11M and 11X. These should all be kept together in a single timetable but if anyone wanted a full timetable, you are looking at 6 PDFs which is a lot to download and try to work out when all the routes should be in 1 timetable.

Thirdly, timetables need to be available in a web format first and then give people the option to export if they wish.
This then allows people to pick 'all stops' or 'timing points' so it's upto the user and how they work as individuals. I prefer timing points because the 'all stops' are estimates and sometimes these estimates are way off so i'd rather work it out off a timing point than let the bus drive past because the estimate is not very good. A further advantage is that people aren't downloading every timetable to their phones unnecessarily.

Fourthly, all local buses should be shown in the 'town' areas.
When you work out how to navigate to a town, all it shows you is the popular routes which is bonkers to say the least. If you are going that far into a website, you need to see all the routes which Arriva run in that town/city.

Minor improvements but would make a difference
1. PDFs need to work with Google Chromes inbuilt PDF viewer. I know for myself, I hate downloading things to my computer. By using Google Chromes inbuilt PDF thing, it means I am not downloading anything but I can still see the
contents of the PDF. Saves a lot on computer space over time.
2. The map needs to be zoomable without holding 'CTRL'. Should just have the normal Google Maps zoom buttons as not everyone knows the CRTL+click and drag method.
3. The map should flag up where the bus stops are and at a bare minimum give a label of which stop that is. Not everyone knows what their closest stop is officially called so they don't know what they are looking out for on the map. Also by flagging stops, it shows people where the bus stops which is useful for express buses.
4. 'Choose a town or city' should just show the town/city names. Clearly what they have done is to try and get higher search engine rankings but it isn't user friendly.
5. Service updates in the town/city specific areas are too small and have become mixed in with irrelevant news.
6. When you go to the 'lost property' area, it would be useful to have a lost property form there. Having a whole page dedicated to lost property to then tell people to contact customer services (but no clickable link through to it) is just bonkers.
7. Put a slight delay on the drop down hover menu. If you hover over 'Help', you then have to go to the bottom of the screen to rid the hover menu which is quite annoying. Not very good for computer users.


There are plenty more improvements but just starting with these few above would be a good start.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Fourthly, all local buses should be shown in the 'town' areas.
When you work out how to navigate to a town, all it shows you is the popular routes which is bonkers to say the least. If you are going that far into a website, you need to see all the routes which Arriva run in that town/city.

There are plenty more improvements but just starting with these few above would be a good start.

re fourthly: Stagecoach have the same problem regarding a simple 'list of all services in a particular area'. If you already know the route number, fine, If you don't, how do you find it to put it into the timetable search function? Start at 1 and keep going I suppose. That is where a map is useful, or a drop down list of ALL routes, not just selected ones.

re final paragraph: Basically go back and start afresh!

 

[Andy Pacer]

re fourthly: Stagecoach have the same problem regarding a simple 'list of all services in a particular area'. If you already know the route number, fine, If you don't, how do you find it to put it into the timetable search function? Start at 1 and keep going I suppose. That is where a map is useful, or a drop down list of ALL routes, not just selected ones.

re final paragraph: Basically go back and start afresh!

Stagecoach is annoying if you're not sure of the area your service is classed as. Finding the Leicester X7 can be quite challenging!

 

[py_megapixel]

Stagecoach is annoying if you're not sure of the area your service is classed as. Finding the Leicester X7 can be quite challenging!

Stagecoach's website, more than anything usability-wise, suffers from just being painfully slow!