Arriva Transpennine Express

[danfitz123]

Hi,
Just asking whether anyone thinks arriva will be given another shot at the transpennine franchise? Also does anybody know of any videos of when they ran the franchise? Thanks

 

[Darandio]

I hope not and I imagine I won't be alone in saying that.

Also, Youtube has plenty of videos of when they had the franchise. Interesting if repetetive 158's carrying the Northern Spirit livery are your thing.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just echo Darandio, I really really hope not!

But I suspect it will depend on what happens to TPE, there is talk from time to time that it might be amalgamated again into Northern to just give one operator running regional/local services in the north. Assuming TPE remains independent I would have thought Arriva's bidding would have depended partially on what DB think, seeing as Arriva are now owned by DB. Also even if Arriva did bid, I'm not sure they would win it as assuming First rebid I see no reason not to leave it with First, they've done a pretty good job so far! Of course being sensible is not something that the DfT is famous for :roll:

 

[danfitz123]

Just echo Darandio, I really really hope not!

But I suspect it will depend on what happens to TPE, there is talk from time to time that it might be amalgamated again into Northern to just give one operator running regional/local services in the north. Assuming TPE remains independent I would have thought Arriva's bidding would have depended partially on what DB think, seeing as Arriva are now owned by DB. Also even if Arriva did bid, I'm not sure they would win it as assuming First rebid I see no reason not to leave it with First, they've done a pretty good job so far! Of course being sensible is not something that the DfT is famous for :roll:

Personally I can see DB bidding for it as they are after about every company at the moment. It wont be long before Britains railways and station shops (DB Smiths) are run by the germans...:cry:

 

[bluenoxid]

There are a lot of franchises coming up for bidding and it will be upto Arriva and DB to decide what they are going to bid for. It has a mixture of services and routes and it will suit and fit in within a wide transport portfolio. Expect many expressions of interest.

However, if it is rolled within the Northern franchise then it will narrow the field considerably.

 

[brompton rail]

Personally I can see DB bidding for it as they are after about every company at the moment. It wont be long before Britains railways are run by the germans...:cry:

Remember that TPE are part controlled by the French (Keolis) SNCF. you can guarantee that the Dutch and the Germans will bid for a new Northern franchise, and don't forget that DB only just beat NedRail for Tyne and Wear Metro recently. Oh! And in the past the Danes have shown an interest in Britains trains!

 

[danfitz123]

Remember that TPE are part controlled by the French (Keolis) SNCF.

Wow didn't know keolis was SNCF.

 

[MCR247]

It isn't fully, but they own the majority of shares

 

[142094]

Don't particularly want Arriva back anywhere near me - ATN were a shambles and I don't rate them as a railway company.

 

[danfitz123]

Don't particularly want Arriva back anywhere near me - ATN were a shambles and I don't rate them as a railway company.

What is it that was wrong with them. I think ATW is very well run. The trains are always on time. I can't really remember ATN as it was before i was an enthusiast.

 

[ainsworth74]

Strikes and staff shortages leading to lots of cancellations and emergency timetables, as I far as I am aware.

 

[142094]

What is it that was wrong with them. I think ATW is very well run. The trains are always on time. I can't really remember ATN as it was before i was an enthusiast.

Once was left at Hartlepool on a freezing winter night due to the service being cancelled to Newcastle, so had to wait for an hour for the next one. No explanation given, ticket office and waiting room closed. To make things worse the train actually ran through out of service, so wasn't due to a train failure or anything like that.

On top of that there was a period where trains were cancelled at short notice due to staff shortages and other reasons. One of the worst TOCs I've ever come across.

Northern showed them how to do it, under a 'no-growth' franchise to boot. I'd give them the franchise again any day.

 

[tbtc]

Don't particularly want Arriva back anywhere near me - ATN were a shambles and I don't rate them as a railway company.

Arriva inherited a basket case when they bought MTL - the "Northern Spirit" franchise (formerly Regional Railways North East) was a horror-show - second best at everything. GNER had poached a number of drivers (by paying more), leaving chronic staff shortages (drivers being taxiid round Yorkshire to fill duties at short notice etc) and a number of other inherited problems. Plus at the time there were things like Leeds remodelling which impacted upon operations (Stockport area problems caused similar headaches for FNW).

Arriva improved things at Norther Spirit (from an admittedly low base), started training a large number of staff etc. They did some interesting things (the 37s on Knaresborough - Leeds/ Leeds - Carlisle, for example). They also had some really interesting ideas in their big for the "new" Transpennine franchises (e.g. pre 2004) including a fleet of new class 180s running routes like Blackpool - Sheffield, or Manchester - Sheffield - Hull.

They (obviously) didn't win it, and First/ Keolis have done a decent job (shame the 185s are too short, but we all know that story). Similarly Serco/Ned have made Northern better than what they inherited. However, I don't think you can blame Arriva for the shambles that they inherited at Northern Spirit (in the way you can't blame them for Voyagers on XC).

Bearing in mind that Arriva had no UK rail experience when they took over, you have to accept that Arriva/DB in 2010 is completely different from Arriva in 2000.

 

[route:oxford]

Hi,
Just asking whether anyone thinks arriva will be given another shot at the transpennine franchise?

If they make the right bid, I'm sure they would get another shot.

Would it be a good idea to merge the Transpennine Express and XC franchises?

 

[danfitz123]

If they make the right bid, I'm sure they would get another shot.

Would it be a good idea to merge the Transpennine Express and XC franchises?

Im not sure about that. I don't like the XC franchise one bit. This is due to the terrible customer service. In the past I have emailed them, and got no answer.

 

[MCR247]

Thats AXC/DBXC, not the franchise

 

[tbtc]

Would it be a good idea to merge the Transpennine Express and XC franchises?

It makes sense for Liverpool - Norwich to be part of the same TOC as Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes

It makes sense for Birmingham - Carlisle - Glasgow/Edinburgh to be part of the same TOC as Manchester Airport - Carlisle - Glasgow/Edinburgh

I see the logic in having fewer operators on the Newcastle - York stretch of the ECML (one operator on Newcastle - Leeds), but it's hard to know where to draw the line in "tidying" TOCs...

 

[danfitz123]

It makes sense for Liverpool - Norwich to be part of the same TOC as Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes

Isn't Liverpool-Norwich EMT?

 

[IanXC]

Would it be a good idea to merge the Transpennine Express and XC franchises?

I think it makes more sense than putting TPE with Northern. I would keep TPE standalone rather than merge it with Northern. The current XC with TPE, and the Liverpool-Norwich route from EMT would make a good franchise as I see it.

Keeps routes with first class together, makes for a more complete XC map, and could facilitate the movement of some TPE routes to "more IC standard" rolling stock. In addition some routes could be amended and interlaced with current XC routes to keep the core frequencies but provide more journey possibilities. Norwich-Newcastle, Hull-Reading or Glasgow-Nottingham anyone?

 

[tbtc]

Isn't Liverpool-Norwich EMT?

It is. I was just giving an example of where a TPE service could be better co-ordinated with another one (e.g. the 20/40 minute frequency on Manchester - Sheffield).

"TPE South" has nothing to do with the rest of TPE, and should really be handed elsewhere at the next "reshuffle".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Norwich-Newcastle

If there's going to be any service from "Anglia" up the ECML to Newcastle then there'd be more demand for Stansted/ Cambridge - Newcastle?

 

[danfitz123]

It is. I was just giving an example of where a TPE service could be better co-ordinated with another one (e.g. the 20/40 minute frequency on Manchester - Sheffield).

Ok, sorry didn't realize that what you meant.

 

[tbtc]

Ok, sorry didn't realize that what you meant.

I should have probably explained myself better

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Sorry about this, but what exactly is transpennine south? :/

 

[MCR247]

MIA - Cleethorpes

 

[dfishw]

I didnt know there was a TPE south? Oh well. Yeh i agree EMT running liverpool to norwich is a strange one as it really out of their region mostly. Either it should go to TPE or to XC. Merging XC with TPE would be a good idea as they are all XC style services they could also be merged as someone suggested and new routes made up. If this is decided (i doubt it would be) then the franchise would effectivly extend to cover east anglia, humber and the north west and other areas better. Or you could keep them seperate but rename TPE.

 

[MCR247]

I don't know why people are obsessed with moving it. Liverpool - Norwich is fine where it is.

 

[tbtc]

I didnt know there was a TPE south?

IMHO the Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes service has nothing to do with other TPE services (even calling it "TPE South" seems a bit false, but that's the timetable description it got); it was added to the franchise to beef it up, but would fit better with EMT or maybe even Northern would be better than TPE.

Newcastle - Carlisle or York - Blackpool cross the Pennines but aren't part of "Transpennine", so I'm not sure why the Cleethorpes service is (it serves Manchester Airport, as a lot of TPE services do, but then so does Southport - MIA and Liverpool - MIA and MIA - Crewe!)

EMT running liverpool to norwich is a strange one as it really out of their region mostly

It's a hard service as it's not really in anyone's "area". EMT do serve Sheffield, Nottingham, Grantham and Peterborough, so there's some logic to it being with them.

One trouble with it (other than train length, bottlenecks etc) is whether it's better to run it from the middle or from each end. As EMT are running it from the middle, they don't have the resources at Liverpool or Norwich (so early/ late services don't go "full route" and trips are often capped before getting to the terminus if things go wrong).

Here in South Yorkshire the Sheffield - Rotherham - Doncaster bus service used to be jointly operated from Sheffield and Doncaster depots. Now, it's 99% run from Rotherham, which gives some benefits but a lot of disadvantages.

If the Liverpool - Norwich service was run as a joint Northern/ NXEA service then it would solve a lot of problems (but create others!)

 

[MCR247]

But the thing good thing about running it from the middle, is that if it was run by Northern/TPE based in Liverpool/Manchester, it may mean that you have to have a really early last departure from Norwich and a really late departure from Norwich in mornings.

IMO, Northern, TPE and EMT should be joined. (not the MML though)

 

[daikilo]

IMHO the Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes service has nothing to do with other TPE services (even calling it "TPE South" seems a bit false, but that's the timetable description it got); it was added to the franchise to beef it up, but would fit better with EMT or maybe even Northern would be better than TPE.

Newcastle - Carlisle or York - Blackpool cross the Pennines but aren't part of "Transpennine", so I'm not sure why the Cleethorpes service is (it serves Manchester Airport, as a lot of TPE services do, but then so does Southport - MIA and Liverpool - MIA and MIA - Crewe!)



It's a hard service as it's not really in anyone's "area". EMT do serve Sheffield, Nottingham, Grantham and Peterborough, so there's some logic to it being with them.

One trouble with it (other than train length, bottlenecks etc) is whether it's better to run it from the middle or from each end. As EMT are running it from the middle, they don't have the resources at Liverpool or Norwich (so early/ late services don't go "full route" and trips are often capped before getting to the terminus if things go wrong).

Here in South Yorkshire the Sheffield - Rotherham - Doncaster bus service used to be jointly operated from Sheffield and Doncaster depots. Now, it's 99% run from Rotherham, which gives some benefits but a lot of disadvantages.

If the Liverpool - Norwich service was run as a joint Northern/ NXEA service then it would solve a lot of problems (but create others!)

What if our various TOCs worked as one rather than in competition? What if BR was to be recreated?

 

[tbtc]

What if our various TOCs worked as one rather than in competition?

I'd be a happy chappy.

Competition on the railways is wasteful, most of the time (e.g. Virgin have no competition on Manchester - London, yet still trebled services)

To get back to the original topic, it should be said that whether Arriva win TPE in future (or any franchise), much of the success/ failure will be because of the DFT - the terms will be so restrictive that there will be less scope for failure/ change than there was when Arriva took over MTL a decade ago