Arriva Trains Wales Fare Dodging Prosecution

[Reedyy99]

The practice of passengers travelling by rail, without a ticket, and then on questioning at the destination, stating that they boarded at a station closer to the destination than the station which they truthfully boarded is a fraud. That fraud has been occurring across the rail network for 150 years. It is a very serious matter. Passengers have been imprisoned for months for repeated frauds of this type. I say this because (and you will please correct me if I am wrong) your remark about 'factory workers' and the investigators being 'a royal pain in the arse' and the suggestion that the fraud is diminished by you being 'a student' all suggests to me that you haven't fully grasped the significance of your actions.

I'm happy to help as are others on here, but we can only do that when the person seeking help is able to understand the position they are in. You have, by your own evidence in here, committed a Criminal Offence. If you stop blaming other people and fully grasp the significance of your own behavior, then the help on here might be more focused on an outcome. As it is, you appear to me to be heading for prosecution.
Perhaps you could be starting to prepare your statement of facts in mitigation which might help the Magistrates to reduce your fine.

By way of context, and just for your information, the statistics demonstrating the fraudulent practice of passengers lying about the station at which they board a train is apparent from a comparison of head counts at stations and a review of ticket sales. The evidence is that this data reveals exceptional discrepancies in the North West of England and in South Wales. This data is of course, used by the investigating teams to direct their revenue enforcement initiatives.

You just happened, whether by coincidence or by a repeated pattern of behavior, to find yourself in the middle of such an investigation.

I understand this completely, i'm sorry for appearing like a brat and in all honesty I was grabbing for desperation, this whole case alongside university has made me have to attend counselling weekly under the impression I have started to feel anxiety regularly, I deeply apologies for appearing like I don't care.

At this point in the situation we have been given notification that I should be receiving our court summons tomorrow or the day after, for a date next Friday (16th).

I have spoken to my university union's legal rep and he has said alongside looking into my situation it is better to just prepare for the court day, and that appearing at court to my guilty plea will hopefully be fortunate to me.

Thanks everyone for the advice I have received thus far, it has helped alot and even though the outcome is still the same, at this point I have accepted what has happened and it is all on me.

 

[Harlequin]

Hope the outcome is a fair one and that you're able to move on from it and, hopefully, to full and anxiety-free health.

 

[tiptoptaff]

It sounds like that ATW are doing one of their semi-regular mass prosecutions. Fare evasion and revenue loss during large events in Cardiff is a huge problem, and has been for a long time. With the 6nations currently ongoing, the number of events over the summer at the Principality booked in being high, they'll use the (probably) large group of you they caught doing this over the Autumn as a rather public deterrent to anyone who wants to try it on. There is a cultural problem in South Wales that transport doesn't have to be paid for when it is busy at these events. ATW are doing everything they can to prove to the travelling public this is not the case.

 

[Reedyy99]

It sounds like that ATW are doing one of their semi-regular mass prosecutions. Fare evasion and revenue loss during large events in Cardiff is a huge problem, and has been for a long time. With the 6nations currently ongoing, the number of events over the summer at the Principality booked in being high, they'll use the (probably) large group of you they caught doing this over the Autumn as a rather public deterrent to anyone who wants to try it on. There is a cultural problem in South Wales that transport doesn't have to be paid for when it is busy at these events. ATW are doing everything they can to prove to the travelling public this is not the case.

Can definitely understand their point of view, it is a massive problem for them and I expect the revenue lost from it is in high amounts, especially because of how popular mass events in Cardiff are for those around Wales on game day, and how overcrowded the train gets on these days.

I have received my court date for next Friday, they have requested £8 ticket fees and £140 in court costs, can anyone clarify for me how much I will end up paying in Magistrates? I intend to plead guilty in person while clarifying to the court that I have made multiple attempts (with evidence) on the actual incident and then from that point to make my amends to the company, hopefully this will make them see that I at-least didn't just tell them to jog on and didn't offer anything!

 

[Reedyy99]

Hope the outcome is a fair one and that you're able to move on from it and, hopefully, to full and anxiety-free health.

Thanks mate, means alot.

At this stage my parents are still worrying about it alot because as of right now i'm at university and my primary path in life was to commission to the army as an officer, which will now be blocked of-course, having a criminal record and that. This has been made clear to TIL and I will also bring it up in my final plea in court (not sure how that works though?) but I honestly understand what I have done and this is the consequence for my actions, it has taught me a lesson I will never forget.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I have received my court date for next Friday, they have requested £8 ticket fees and £140 in court costs, can anyone clarify for me how much I will end up paying in Magistrates?

There is a handy calculator for Magistrate's Court fines here: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/fine-calculator/

For your offence which is at the lowest end of the scale, I would suggest that a Fine would be the most likely outcome, at the lowest end of the scale which is Band A and 50% of your weekly income. If you're a student and you have no income, your income will be assumed to be £140/week. If you plead guilty as you plan, you will get a 1/3 off the fine. So the penalty will look something like this:

Fine 50% of £140 less 1/3 = £40
Compensation (Fare Evaded) = £8
Prosecution Costs = £140
Victim Surcharge = £30

Total = £218

You may be surprised that the income related portion of the punishment is 1/5 of the total penalty. That's the way our legal system has been driven in recent years and not for this thread.

 

[Reedyy99]

There is a handy calculator for Magistrate's Court fines here: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/fine-calculator/

For your offence which is at the lowest end of the scale, I would suggest that a Fine would be the most likely outcome, at the lowest end of the scale which is Band A and 50% of your weekly income. If you're a student and you have no income, your income will be assumed to be £140/week. If you plead guilty as you plan, you will get a 1/3 off the fine. So the penalty will look something like this:

Fine 50% of £140 less 1/3 = £40
Compensation (Fare Evaded) = £8
Prosecution Costs = £140
Victim Surcharge = £30

Total = £218

You may be surprised that the income related portion of the punishment is 1/5 of the total penalty. That's the way our legal system has been driven in recent years and not for this thread.

Really helpful information thanks mate, as I am a student and don't have a part-time job this would be the case.

Would this be payable in something as small as £5 or £10 a week? I'm currently on a strict budget created by myself to make sure I don't go overboard in first year, and I don't come from a wealthy family either.

 

[furlong]

I'm currently on a strict budget created by myself to make sure I don't go overboard in first year, and I don't come from a wealthy family either.

Do continue to try to negotiate with the company itself directly (not TIL) or if it does goes to court, arrive early and ask to meet the prosecutor before your case is heard, as you might still achieve an out-of-court settlement lower than the figure mentioned here (and it could be worth your while trying to borrow money from friends or family to achieve this if it avoids a conviction).

 

[Puffing Devil]

Really helpful information thanks mate, as I am a student and don't have a part-time job this would be the case.

Would this be payable in something as small as £5 or £10 a week? I'm currently on a strict budget created by myself to make sure I don't go overboard in first year, and I don't come from a wealthy family either.

Yes - fines can be paid by instalment by agreement with the court. A smart court will ask if you're living on loan or budget why you can't pay straight away, even if you have a personal budget. The minimum deduction from benefit in £5/week, which is normally the minimum the court will accept as an offer.

NB any financial penalty will be the subject of a collection order, which gives the court and the fines officer additional powers to collect if you fail to pay or stick to an agreement. You should know that the ultimate sanction for non-payment is prison.

 

[Reedyy99]

Do continue to try to negotiate with the company itself directly (not TIL) or if it does goes to court, arrive early and ask to meet the prosecutor before your case is heard, as you might still achieve an out-of-court settlement lower than the figure mentioned here (and it could be worth your while trying to borrow money from friends or family to achieve this if it avoids a conviction).

I'll try to get back on the phone with Arriva, I have a solid week until the court date so there is still time at-least, however they have been certain they do not get involved (although they did say they would pass on how they have seen that I have been highly responsive and apologetic)

How would meeting the prosecutor before the case is heard go? As I know this will probably be a mass case on the day, do I just arrive hours early and try to plead it there, if all that fails I take my final plea infront of the magistrates?

 

[furlong]

Firstly, if you browse some other threads on here, you'll find some cases where TIL refused to move but contacting Arriva at this stage did lead to an out-of-court settlement.

If the court is nearby, you could go there the afternoon before (or phone) and ask the court staff to suggest the best way to meet the prosecutor - by then, they should have a good idea of the next day's listings and what time the prosecutor is likely to be there based on the other cases listed. Similarly on the day, ask the court staff to help you find them for a short meeting.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Firstly, if you browse some other threads on here, you'll find some cases where TIL refused to move but contacting Arriva at this stage did lead to an out-of-court settlement.

This doesn't sound like a regular ATW caught him prosecution, where they would normally take or make an offer to settle. If it was, we'd be all done with this thread by now. This sounds like one of their semi-regular mass prosecutions (as I've mentioned upthread, and would explain why when contacted, they refused to get involved with the OP's prosecution) and from my experiences as a former employee, I really do think in this case it would be highly unusual or unlikely for them to settle out of court. I would suspect that the OP will be one of possibly tens of others that will also be being prosecuted on ATW's behalf next Friday.

I hope it works out for you OP, and that ATW do settle directly - as I simply cannot stand TIL - but I fear ATW have left them to run this one out on their behalf.

 

[Reedyy99]

This doesn't sound like a regular ATW caught him prosecution, where they would normally take or make an offer to settle. If it was, we'd be all done with this thread by now. This sounds like one of their semi-regular mass prosecutions (as I've mentioned upthread, and would explain why when contacted, they refused to get involved with the OP's prosecution) and from my experiences as a former employee, I really do think in this case it would be highly unusual or unlikely for them to settle out of court. I would suspect that the OP will be one of possibly tens of others that will also be being prosecuted on ATW's behalf next Friday.

I hope it works out for you OP, and that ATW do settle directly - as I simply cannot stand TIL - but I fear ATW have left them to run this one out on their behalf.

Thanks for the kind words, and unfortunately you being a former employee just gives me the final knock on the head for all the hope I have put towards this whole process, it really is crazy how you can mess your life up so bad from one error!

As a former employee like yourself, what should my final steps be from today until next week?

I'm planning on (as furlong said) giving one last call to ATW to see if they will possibly respond to my cause, on the emails they were actually quite helpful and did see my side of the story and the affect it would have on my life for such a stupid mistake, but refused to get involved, so possibly a phone call could be another hopeful cause.

After that I will 100% attempt to speak to the prosecution in a short meeting on the morning of the prosecution day next Friday, in hope that in person they can see me for a person and not just another case on sheets they have to deal with.

What's done is done, if it goes through to the end then it is my fault and mine only, I can only thank those on the forum and those working for ATW/TIL who actually responded nicely against those such as the supervisor on the phone for TIL who were actually horrible.

 

[tiptoptaff]

It's worth calling them, but I suggest you prepare for court. You have indeed tried to settle but that wont count for much, as unlike a civil case, they're not obliged to consider a reasonable offer.

I didn't have anything to do with prosecutions or revenue departments, so I don't know the ins and outs, I just know that this is what they do on occasion. TIL are difficult and often incompetent. I'm not surprised you've got nowhere with them.

 

[Starmill]

By way of context, and just for your information, the statistics demonstrating the fraudulent practice of passengers lying about the station at which they board a train is apparent from a comparison of head counts at stations and a review of ticket sales. The evidence is that this data reveals exceptional discrepancies in the North West of England and in South Wales.

I'd be interested to hear what this evidence is - and where you got it from. Perhaps you could start a new thread briefly setting it out for us?

 

[najaB]

my primary path in life was to commission to the army as an officer, which will now be blocked of-course, having a criminal record and that.

It would not be blocked. As long as you are completely honest I'm confident that a minor railway ticketing offence wouldn't stop you entering the Army.

 

[Clip]

This doesn't sound like a regular ATW caught him prosecution, where they would normally take or make an offer to settle. If it was, we'd be all done with this thread by now. This sounds like one of their semi-regular mass prosecutions (as I've mentioned upthread, and would explain why when contacted, they refused to get involved with the OP's prosecution) and from my experiences as a former employee, I really do think in this case it would be highly unusual or unlikely for them to settle out of court. I would suspect that the OP will be one of possibly tens of others that will also be being prosecuted on ATW's behalf next Friday.

I hope it works out for you OP, and that ATW do settle directly - as I simply cannot stand TIL - but I fear ATW have left them to run this one out on their behalf.

The OP has already been offered an out of court settlement and in my view they should pay it and be done with it - its affecting their health and they shouldn't prolong it any further with an increased chance of the potential fine being higher.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The OP has already been offered an out of court settlement and in my view they should pay it and be done with it - its affecting their health and they shouldn't prolong it any further with an increased chance of the potential fine being higher.

No, he's off to court:

I have received my court date for next Friday, they have requested £8 ticket fees and £140 in court costs

It doesn't appear that there ever was an offer to settle.

 

[Reedyy99]

It would not be blocked. As long as you are completely honest I'm confident that a minor railway ticketing offence wouldn't stop you entering the Army.

Dad is an officer in British Army, any offence will stop be from being able to commission into the army (Sandhurst etc).

 

[Reedyy99]

Could anyone offer insight into what I am to expect on the court day, I have never attended court (a good thing!!) so I don't even know if I am to dress up well, who I will be speaking to, what to even say etc?

 

[Reedyy99]

No, he's off to court:



It doesn't appear that there ever was an offer to settle.

Correct, I wish there was ever an offer, at this stage id be willing to pay up to a grand in fear of the criminal record to follow.

 

[rpjs]

Correct, I wish there was ever an offer, at this stage id be willing to pay up to a grand in fear of the criminal record to follow.

What is the actual charge? If it's a By-law offence, you won't be getting a criminal record.

 

[Reedyy99]

What is the actual charge? If it's a By-law offence, you won't be getting a criminal record.

I think this is the relevant charge?:

Section 5(3)(a) of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889) Travelling with intent to avoid payment

Unless i'm wrong I believe even as a civil case if you are awarded this fine it counts as a 1 year criminal record, that you don't have to declare after 1 year but will show up on all background checks etc

 

[70014IronDuke]

Dad is an officer in British Army, any offence will stop be from being able to commission into the army (Sandhurst etc).

I'm sure you, given your background, know far more about the army than I ever will - but it seems extraordnarily short-sighted, stupid and even cruel - to outlaw any potentially excellent officer trainee and servant for the defence of HM's realm for one non-violent offence such as fare-evasion, even if that is technincally a criminal offence.

Could anyone offer insight into what I am to expect on the court day, I have never attended court (a good thing!!) so I don't even know if I am to dress up well, who I will be speaking to, what to even say etc?

I've never attended court either. I'm sure British magistrates see an awful lot of types they'd prefer not to be seated next to at the dining table, but they are trained to self-censor their own prejudices. At least, I hope so. Nonetheless, given your background, I suggest it would appear almost insulting if you turned up in jeans and training shoes.

i think you should aim for smart, probably a suit, but definitely not flashy. So low-key tie.

I think more important would be your attitude (and hence the not flashy, above). The last thing (IMO) you want to come over as is a smart-arse would-be Napoleon* planning to go to Sandhurst (or wherever it is) to boss around squaddies who are not allowed to fight back. I suspect that would really get up some judges' noses. So don't appear in anyway arrogant. (Easier said than done if you are, or come over that way, of course.)
* I should say that there was one guy like this at my school who became a prefect - and I've never forgotten the b*ss*d. So maybe I'm putting too much of my own values in this. And incidentally, he'd been a trainspotter when younger, and was a kind of mentor to me four or five years earlier.

 

[Reedyy99]

I'm sure you, given your background, know far more about the army than I ever will - but it seems extraordnarily short-sighted, stupid and even cruel - to outlaw any potentially excellent officer trainee and servant for the defence of HM's realm for one non-violent offence such as fare-evasion, even if that is technincally a criminal offence.


I've never attended court either. I'm sure British magistrates see an awful lot of types they'd prefer not to be seated next to at the dining table, but they are trained to self-censor their own prejudices. At least, I hope so. Nonetheless, given your background, I suggest it would appear almost insulting if you turned up in jeans and training shoes.

i think you should aim for smart, probably a suit, but definitely not flashy. So low-key tie.

I think more important would be your attitude (and hence the not flashy, above). The last thing (IMO) you want to come over as is a smart-arse would-be Napoleon* planning to go to Sandhurst (or wherever it is) to boss around squaddies who are not allowed to fight back. I suspect that would really get up some judges' noses. So don't appear in anyway arrogant. (Easier said than done if you are, or come over that way, of course.)
* I should say that there was one guy like this at my school who became a prefect - and I've never forgotten the b*ss*d. So maybe I'm putting too much of my own values in this. And incidentally, he'd been a trainspotter when younger, and was a kind of mentor to me four or five years earlier.

Thanks for the advice, I haven't got a suit to my disposal but I will hopefully still fit my sixth form uniform so trousers, a white shirt and black tie with a black jumper will have to do? I will have no problem not appearing like an officer's brat trust me, I am as far from it as I can go, he is only recently an officer so i'm more just a squaddie's brat . I dont intend to go on about Sandhurst or anything but to just plead with them that I hope they don't judge me for this one mistake at this age that WILL always appear for the rest of my life.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Thanks for the advice, I haven't got a suit to my disposal but I will hopefully still fit my sixth form uniform so trousers, a white shirt and black tie with a black jumper will have to do? I will have no problem not appearing like an officer's brat trust me, I am as far from it as I can go, he is only recently an officer so i'm more just a squaddie's brat . I dont intend to go on about Sandhurst or anything but to just plead with them that I hope they don't judge me for this one mistake at this age that WILL always appear for the rest of my life.

OK on no suit. Might even work in your favour. I think the key thing is to be respectful. All the best on the day!

 

[Reedyy99]

OK on no suit. Might even work in your favour. I think the key thing is to be respectful. All the best on the day!

Thanks for the advice and the good luck, hope everyone on here knows how much it means to me at this stage!!

 

[najaB]

Dad is an officer in British Army, any offence will stop be from being able to commission into the army (Sandhurst etc).

According to the Army website, unspent convictions may prevent you from joining, but spent ones do not. A RoRA conviction would be spent after 12 months.

Specifically, in: Army General and Administrative Instructions / Volume 2 / Chapter 41: Policy for the Recruitment and Enlistment / Commissioning of Personnel with Criminal Convictions it says:

For commissioning, a candidate with one or two ‘unspent’ non-custodial convictions may be authorised to commence training.

It stands to reason that if someone with one or two unspent convictions can start their officer training, that someone with a single spent conviction would also be able to.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Could anyone offer insight into what I am to expect on the court day, I have never attended court (a good thing!!) so I don't even know if I am to dress up well, who I will be speaking to, what to even say etc?

Appearing in Court (Unrepresented)

Dress – shirt, tie, trousers and shoes is a level above many of the other customers and shows that you are taking the appearance seriously. An usher will take your name as you enter and will show you where to go and wait. There may be lots of waiting. If you do decide to try to settle on the day arrive around 9am, check in and ask if you can speak to the prosecutor in your case. This is your last chance and can stop it going into court.

Normally you wait outside the courtroom until your case is called on: your name will be announced by the usher and you will be shown into the court. You will be expected to stand as your name and address is confirmed and the charges read out. At this stage you will be asked your plea, and assuming it’s guilty, you’ll be asked to sit. (There is nothing to prevent you from asking to wait at the back of the court, if the public gallery is on the same level and not a proper "gallery" - it's usually a couple of rows of chairs at the back. Sitting here will give you an idea of the court procedure)

The prosecution will then outline the facts of the case as they have them. You will then be asked if you have anything to say – this is where you have your opportunity to put forward your mitigation. It is best to keep it short and simple: explain this is a one off, your infrequent use of the train and your remorse at finding yourself in this situation.

You will be asked to sit while the Magistrates decide on an appropriate sentence – this will not take very long. You will be asked to stand again and the sentence will be announced. If it is a fine, you’ll be reminded that it is due today and asked if you can pay today.

There is a good University of Derby Video on YouTube which shows the roles in the court, also the layout of the court. It is concerned with a trial, but does show you who the characters are and where they are normally positioned. If you're unrepresented you'll be seated to the side of the court, normally outside of the dock in cases like this: local procedure depends heavily on the age and layout of the court you attend.

Final piece of advice: Turn your phone off as soon as you enter the court building!

Edit to fix a couple of missing letters - probably many more still not in there!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Just to add to the above good advice: Be humble, polite, speak only when spoken to, look the usher/court clerk/magistrate in the eye (without staring) and do not argue. Have a shave and brush your hair.

Although by no means an expert on the legal system, I have done jury service twice in a criminal court and once in a magistrates court.