Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bletchleyite]

It's about time the government stepped in. This is ruinous for the country's economy, Saturday being the main shopping day for most people, not to mention football attendance.

It's not. Fewer than 10% of journeys are by rail, and that figure is lower than the national average in Northernland. Liverpool, say, was heaving yesterday, with not a single train operating and only a fairly thin bus service.

If it was a London commuter TOC and a weekday, it would have the potential to be so, but Northern on a Saturday is at best causing minor issues. Businesses seriously affected by it (other than station coffee stalls and similar) are businesses which were barely viable to start with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And do what exactly?
The government are the ones bailing out Northern on strike days!

The Government want DOO, because it's cheaper and subsidy can reduce. It's not Northern that want it. I'm sure they would be quite happy if they were offered the option to receive extra subsidy or increase regulated fares[1] such that guards could be funded.

[1] This is not quite as ridiculous as it sounds - the Merseyrail deal involves at least some level of fare increase as well as cuts in other areas.

 

[yorksrob]

It's not. Fewer than 10% of journeys are by rail, and that figure is lower than the national average in Northernland. Liverpool, say, was heaving yesterday, with not a single train operating and only a fairly thin bus service.

If it was a London commuter TOC and a weekday, it would have the potential to be so, but Northern on a Saturday is at best causing minor issues. Businesses seriously affected by it (other than station coffee stalls and similar) are businesses which were barely viable to start with.

I think that that is a gross underestimation of the damage that this action is doing to the Northern economy.

 

[yorksrob]

The Government want DOO, because it's cheaper and subsidy can reduce. It's not Northern that want it. I'm sure they would be quite happy if they were offered the option to receive extra subsidy or increase regulated fares[1] such that guards could be funded.

[1] This is not quite as ridiculous as it sounds - the Merseyrail deal involves at least some level of fare increase as well as cuts in other areas.

Or effectively receive a similar, rather than a reduced subsidy, given that all the trains already have guards that are funded. However fat chance with the current shower in charge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or effectively receive a similar, rather than a reduced subsidy, given that all the trains already have guards that are funded. However fat chance with the current shower in charge.

Yes, true. I basically mean a funding rejig such that there would be no financial disadvantage to Northern of retaining guards in their present form coupled by a formal removal of the DOO requirement from the franchise agreement (though I'd still support a move to driver release to ease revenue duties and speed up services by about 10 seconds per stop, and the RMT would have few grounds to oppose that given how widespread its use is elsewhere).

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, true. I basically mean a funding rejig such that there would be no financial disadvantage to Northern of retaining guards in their present form coupled by a formal removal of the DOO requirement from the franchise agreement (though I'd still support a move to driver release to ease revenue duties and speed up services by about 10 seconds per stop, and the RMT would have few grounds to oppose that given how widespread its use is elsewhere).

Yes I agree. Driver release would be a beneficial change of duties.

 

[Muttley]

The Government want DOO, because it's cheaper and subsidy can reduce. It's not Northern that want it. I'm sure they would be quite happy if they were offered the option to receive extra subsidy or increase regulated fares[1] such that guards could be funded.

[1] This is not quite as ridiculous as it sounds - the Merseyrail deal involves at least some level of fare increase as well as cuts in other areas.

A) it's not cheaper
B) Northern do want it, they overbid (substantially) on the minimum requirement
C) guards easily take in more in fares than their wages

 

[Bletchleyite]

A) it's not cheaper

How is paying 2 people cheaper than paying 1? And why would they want DOO if it wasn't cheaper?

C) guards easily take in more in fares than their wages

The move to TVMs and PFs should end that.

 

[yorksrob]

How is paying 2 people cheaper than paying 1? And why would they want DOO if it wasn't cheaper?



The move to TVMs and PFs should end that.

Although according to the party line, the Government still wants a second person on all the trains except in times of disruption (although whether we actually believe that is another matter).

 

[yorkie]

It does seem are like the RMT are stepping up the propaganda war. Have a look at this piece from a hopelessly naive young journalist who still thinks the dispute is all about safety. One rather suspects she's not wholly impartial....

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-train-passengers-unsafe-back-strike-northern

It's crazy how some people believe this propaganda, but most actual train travellers know that if you travel on Northern services on an evening you are unlikely to see a Guard on the train. So changing the role to be a customer-focussed role will increase visibility, and we will actually see increased personal safety as it becomes more like the Glasgow electrics.

If the RMT were not spreading propaganda I'd not feel compelled to expose their lies; I feel duty bound to tell people the truth as it's not right that people are lied to. So the more the propaganda is spread, the more I am going to expose the truth. I think enough people are doing this to ensure their misinformation campaign will fail.

A) it's not cheaper
B) Northern do want it, they overbid (substantially) on the minimum requirement
C) guards easily take in more in fares than their wages

Having a member of staff constantly patrolling the train taking in fares, instead of the present situation where transactions have to be paused to do the doors (or the doors have to wait for a transaction to be completed in some cases!) and the staff can get away with not being visible and not collecting fares, is obviously going to be better value for money for taxpayers and the increased visible staff presence is what most passengers actually want.

It is disappointing we have to go around in circles, but propaganda cannot go unchallenged!

 

[Robertj21a]

A) it's not cheaper
B) Northern do want it, they overbid (substantially) on the minimum requirement
C) guards easily take in more in fares than their wages

I think you would need to show hard evidence to support all that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although according to the party line, the Government still wants a second person on all the trains except in times of disruption (although whether we actually believe that is another matter).

To be fair, OBS operation can be cheaper - Southern seems to be doing quite well with it despite them (if I recall correctly) being paid more than the old guards were. The flexibility (no route learning, so anyone can be deployed anywhere including barrier lines etc) saves a fortune, I understand.

 

[Tomnick]

It's crazy how some people believe this propaganda, but most actual train travellers know that if you travel on Northern services on an evening you are unlikely to see a Guard on the train. So changing the role to be a customer-focussed role will increase visibility, and we will actually see increased personal safety as it becomes more like the Glasgow electrics.

If the RMT were not spreading propaganda I'd not feel compelled to expose their lies; I feel duty bound to tell people the truth as it's not right that people are lied to. So the more the propaganda is spread, the more I am going to expose the truth. I think enough people are doing this to ensure their misinformation campaign will fail.

Having a member of staff constantly patrolling the train taking in fares, instead of the present situation where transactions have to be paused to do the doors (or the doors have to wait for a transaction to be completed in some cases!) and the staff can get away with not being visible and not collecting fares, is obviously going to be better value for money for taxpayers and the increased visible staff presence is what most passengers actually want.

We’ve already established that the second member of staff will have to pause what they’re doing to establish whether anyone on the platform needs help at each station, so there’s no saving there. Driver release might be a sensible compromise though.

If the staff - a minority? - can get away with not being visible now, then they’re being badly managed and will get away with not being visible in the future too.

To be fair, OBS operation can be cheaper - Southern seems to be doing quite well with it despite them (if I recall correctly) being paid more than the old guards were. The flexibility (no route learning, so anyone can be deployed anywhere including barrier lines etc) saves a fortune, I understand.

I’m not convinced that it’s cheaper overall, not much at least. Route learning isn’t a huge cost, especially for guards. There might be a saving by dispensing with spare cover in the roster, but that doesn’t really fit with the vague commitments to maintaining staffing levels and will mean more trains without a second member of staff. All this is offset by the inevitable higher rate of pay for drivers, more drivers off roster following incidents, higher stress levels etc..

 

[yorkie]

We’ve already established that the second member of staff will have to pause what they’re doing to establish whether anyone on the platform needs help at each station, so there’s no saving there. Driver release might be a sensible compromise though.

I've been on many trains where the Guard has been in the middle of a transaction as the train approaches the station and everyone ends up being delayed if they do not get back to the doors on time. They may also have to go a long way from where the customer was sat. The current system is archaic and not fit for purpose. It needs to be modernised to match the modern efficient methods of working seen elsewhere.

If the staff - a minority? - can get away with not being visible now, then they’re being badly managed and will get away with not being visible in the future too.

There is no way that anyone can force Guards not to remain in their cab, as happens at present. Staff on the Glasgow electrics are not allowed to remain in the cab and have to patrol the passenger area. I believe they can only enter the back cab for the purpose of storing belongings. That's what we need and deserve here too.

I’m not convinced that it’s cheaper overall, not much at least. Route learning isn’t a huge cost, especially for guards. There might be a saving by dispensing with spare cover in the roster, but that doesn’t really fit with the vague commitments to maintaining staffing levels and will mean more trains without a second member of staff. All this is offset by the inevitable higher rate of pay for drivers, more drivers off roster following incidents, higher stress levels etc..

Do you have evidence that the Glasgow electrics drivers have high stress levels etc?

I do have to question how much experience people who oppose the Glasgow electrics method of working actually have in that system. It's good, it's efficient, the staff are far more friendly than some of those I have encountered at Northern. It works and we want the same, there is no good reason why we should not have the same system here.

 

[Carlisle]

Rare for me to be wholly on the RMT's side due to their conduct, but in this case this appears to be a sham rather than proper binding ACAS talks and as such I agree with the RMT's rejection of it.

I see no problem holding a proper enquiry examining all the issues, in practice that’s more or less how Merseyrail has panned out, but i suspect the RMT realise that during the process, claims the dispute’s all about safety would likley be debunked, so they’ve rejected it, hoping a sizeable proportion of the public just keep faith with their present facade ,

 

[Tomnick]

I've been on many trains where the Guard has been in the middle of a transaction as the train approaches the station and everyone ends up being delayed if they do not get back to the doors on time. They may also have to go a long way from where the customer was sat. The current system is archaic and not fit for purpose. It needs to be modernised to match the modern efficient methods of working seen elsewhere.

There is no way that anyone can force Guards not to remain in their cab, as happens at present. Staff on the Glasgow electrics are not allowed to remain in the cab and have to patrol the passenger area. I believe they can only enter the back cab for the purpose of storing belongings. That's what we need and deserve here too.

Do you have evidence that the Glasgow electrics drivers have high stress levels etc?

I do have to question how much experience people who oppose the Glasgow electrics method of working actually have in that system. It's good, it's efficient, the staff are far more friendly than some of those I have encountered at Northern. It works and we want the same, there is no good reason why we should not have the same system here.

Driver release, along with intermediate door controls, would solve the first problem without introducing the risk of a wheelchair user remaining unnoticed on the platform as the train departs whilst the second member of staff is still engaged with his transaction.

I don’t see any reason why Guards who routinely fail to venture from the back cab can’t be disciplined. Yes, there are excuses - and sometimes genuine reasons too, of course - but nothing that decent management shouldn’t be able to overcome. The union should be supporting that approach too. It’s ridiculous to suggest that a Guard must continuously patrol the train though. I think the three passengers that I brought back on a 90 minute journey (with one intermediate stop) last weekend would soon have been sick of the sight of the Guard if he had to be with them constantly. There’s a balance to be struck and barring them from the back cab isn’t the answer.

I think it’s inevitable that the higher workload and responsibility is going to mean higher stress levels, and certainly more operating incidents. I doubt there’s any statistics in the public domain to support that though.

I suspect that the reason that (in your experience) the Strathclyde TEs are more friendly etc. than Northern guards isn’t down to the difference in duties. I’d imagine that the general level of morale has a lot to do with it, spending all day on knackered, often overcrowded DMUs for a start...

 

[Robertj21a]

To be fair, OBS operation can be cheaper - Southern seems to be doing quite well with it despite them (if I recall correctly) being paid more than the old guards were. The flexibility (no route learning, so anyone can be deployed anywhere including barrier lines etc) saves a fortune, I understand.

I fear that you are banging your head against a brick wall. Nobody on here seems to want to hear how well the OBS on Southern is working. The very word 'Flexibility' is another No-Go area as it appears to be a totally alien concept to many rail staff.
Just think how things could be significantly improved if the RMT was forward-looking and co-operative.......

 

[yorkie]

I don’t see any reason why Guards who routinely fail to venture from the back cab can’t be disciplined. Yes, there are excuses - and sometimes genuine reasons too, of course - but nothing that decent management shouldn’t be able to overcome. The union should be supporting that approach too. It’s ridiculous to suggest that a Guard must continuously patrol the train though. I think the three passengers that I brought back on a 90 minute journey (with one intermediate stop) last weekend would soon have been sick of the sight of the Guard if he had to be with them constantly. There’s a balance to be struck and barring them from the back cab isn’t the answer.

My understanding is that when there is no need to patrol the train, because there are no more passengers other than those already seen, the Glasgow electrics staff can sit in the main passenger area, rather than be hidden in the cab. We had one join in our conversation once!

I think it’s inevitable that the higher workload and responsibility is going to mean higher stress levels, and certainly more operating incidents. I doubt there’s any statistics in the public domain to support that though.

I suspect that the reason that (in your experience) the Strathclyde TEs are more friendly etc. than Northern guards isn’t down to the difference in duties. I’d imagine that the general level of morale has a lot to do with it, spending all day on knackered, often overcrowded DMUs for a start...

I am sure there are many reasons, including having a better employer, etc however I see a far better system, with happier staff, up there and I want the same here. Some of the Northern Guards are so grumpy and unprofessional I could never imagine seeing such behaviour and attitudes on the Glasgow electrics. The RMT are scaremongering and suggesting the Glasgow electrics are unsafe, but they are actually safer for personal safety than many Northern services.

Sorry but that system works and is better. I've done plenty of journeys on both systems and I have plenty of experience of both methods of working to know which is better, and I know the RMT's propaganda is ludicrous.

 

[Carlisle]

I’d imagine that the general level of morale has a lot to do with it, spending all day on knackered, often overcrowded DMUs for a start...

As there’s currently a longstanding overtime ban on Scotrail, (who recently made major concessions to the RMT over DOO ) it suggests mere appeasement of militant unions isn’t an ansewer in itself.

 

[LowLevel]

My understanding is that when there is no need to patrol the train, because there are no more passengers other than those already seen, the Glasgow electrics staff can sit in the main passenger area, rather than be hidden in the cab. We had one join in our conversation once!

I am sure there are many reasons, including having a better employer, etc however I see a far better system, with happier staff, up there and I want the same here. Some of the Northern Guards are so grumpy and unprofessional I could never imagine seeing such behaviour and attitudes on the Glasgow electrics. The RMT are scaremongering and suggesting the Glasgow electrics are unsafe, but they are actually safer for personal safety than many Northern services.

Sorry but that system works and is better. I've done plenty of journeys on both systems and I have plenty of experience of both methods of working to know which is better, and I know the RMT's propaganda is ludicrous.

You are aware that ScotRail guards as well as their ticket examiners have exactly the same train working policy with the exception of 15x Sprinters (and that's because you can only make announcements from cabs on those trains) I assume.

As I've mentioned many a time, I'm sorry to be blunt, but those of you who think changing a job title will deal with the Back Cab Brigade are hopelessly naive.

I posted a pretty thorough rebuttal of the whole theory recently but still the droning on about it continues. I'm not bothering to repeat it again.

You mean the happy smiley Glasgow Electrics that are regularly running without ticket examiners and are in the news on a regular basis because the crews are threatening to black them over anti social behaviour

 

[gazzaa2]

Northern just tweeted, now striking every Saturday until the end of January.
https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/1078213890100609025

It's about time the government stepped in. This is ruinous for the country's economy, Saturday being the main shopping day for most people, not to mention football attendance.

I usually go to non league games on a Saturday through the region, via Northern mostly, and would have had something to eat, a few drinks at. I've stopped now because I can't get home. The impacts on leisure and retail are far reaching.

They'll stick to their Saturdays because that's the day they'd rather have off.

 

[LOL The Irony]

One rather suspects she's not wholly impartial....

She's from The Corbyian, what do you expect?

Anyways, I'm glad that those in the know have been reassured and hopefully it goes some way towards the rmt stopping their childish nonesense.

EDIT: I just found this

The patient, friendly conductors and station staff are the only thing that keep the whole operation from falling to bits.

The guards are part of the reason it's falling to bits

 

[DaveB10780]

I usually go to non league games on a Saturday through the region, via Northern mostly, and would have had something to eat, a few drinks at. I've stopped now because I can't get home. The impacts on leisure and retail are far reaching.

They'll stick to their Saturdays because that's the day they'd rather have off.

Absolutely it is has become a very cosy scenario for the minority who must really dislike the people who actually wish to use the trains. If they had any feelings for us then they would actually stop for a moment and consider what the job should be about.

 

[Muttley]

I think you would need to show hard evidence to support all that.

A) the drivers won't go DOO (at all in my mind) for free. Taking the South, it took an £18k bung, and if you believe that a second member will still e on board, where's the saving ? By your reckoning the second member must be on less than £8k a year.
B) common knowledge.
C) talk to guards. I accept that TVMs have hit hard, but money has gone into buying the machines, servicing them, and refilling them; so that's another layer of staff required, when the idea was to cut staff numbers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it’s inevitable that the higher workload and responsibility is going to mean higher stress levels, and certainly more operating incidents. I doubt there’s any statistics in the public domain to support that though.

Genuine question - what's staff morale like and incident rates on Metrolink? Seeing as we're mostly talking short DMUs, it's more comparable with that than 12-car EMUs on the Southern. And where it isn't, like P13/14 at Picc, there will be dispatchers anyway, so the system will be better than now - driver with cameras *and* dispatchers, not just dispatchers with a guard who can't see a jot due to the crowds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

C) talk to guards. I accept that TVMs have hit hard, but money has gone into buying the machines, servicing them, and refilling them; so that's another layer of staff required, when the idea was to cut staff numbers.

Were it not for the overcrowding issue, one option (which would be very popular with passengers) might be to bin off all the cheap-and-nasty TVMs, close ticket offices and go Paytrain except at major stations? The OBSs would have plenty of time to sell tickets with not having door duties.

It seems to work for the Sheffield and Blackpool trams.

 

[Starmill]

Lynsay Hanley is actually quite a well-respected journalist, author and public transport advocate. She has produced a lot of good work on the subject of effective public transport, including an excellent BBC Radio 4 series. She lives in a driverless family in Northern England (something which is next to unheard of as a lifestyle choice) and has dedicated a part of her career to these issues, so it's no surprise that the paper has considered her views worthy to be published. The idea that her column is just "propaganda" is as ridiculous as it is insulting to her. She has an opinion, which has been presented and evidenced clearly. You might disagree with that and in many ways I don't draw the same conclusions that she does. But just insulting her and the paper and calling it propoganda is low.

 

[Carlisle]

The Times today: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/northern-rail-dispute-hits-new-set-of-buffers-n3b0233kl
.

The phrase ‘Pacers from the 1970s” gives me doubts about its overall accuracy

 

[Bayum]

I think that that is a gross underestimation of the damage that this action is doing to the Northern economy.

I’m waiting for some official statistics here for such a shoot down of someone else’s claim.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Northern just tweeted, now striking every Saturday until the end of January.

And do what exactly?
The government are the ones bailing out Northern on strike days!

Somepeople want the government to legislate: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/233298