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Arriva Rail North DOO

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Killingworth

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It's been a real bonus to read informed, open minded and realistic comment on new trains this morning. They are the way forward and a new wave of positivity will be most welcome.

Surely it's in everyone's interest to get this resolved so attention can be turned to the many other aspects of rail operations crying out for help. Many issues will have been put to one side as so much resource has been devoted to fighting a battle that has become totally counterproductive.
 
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Carlisle

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Northern is not Southern, .
Thanks for the information about the trains, id always thought around 95% of what’s taught on any U.K. mainline driver or guard training course was universal, with local variations only a very small part .
 

Gems

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I mean look. It has been said that this strike is not about safety. It is about safety. It is for me. Nobody wants to see passengers get hurt, and anybody who isn't bothered by that prospect should not be in this job.
But if these issues are safely overcome with high tech systems, then it is time to move on from that. At the end of the day in my experience the most dangerous part of dispatch is the crucial moments between hitting the door close button and the train moving. Once it is moving we have very limited visibility anyhow unless you are on a 321, 322, or 150 slam door, and you can stick your head out the window. With this concept in mind, you have to say that having a camera link that can observe the platform up to 13MPH has to be beneficial to everyone.
I do suspect ASLEF might have a word about that though.

As for the second person. It needs some radical thinking. The more anything relies on software the more potential for things to go wrong. The leasing company is insisting the units have to be set up for DCO, Guard operation, and guard closing only. So if you are serious about keeping a second person, why not evolve the role but keep them able to take over should it be needed. It is common sense to me, and common sense has been sadly lacking this past two years.

I also think Northern are doing a great dis-service to it's staff. We have what feels like a war footing instead of involving them. Instead of making it a exciting time like it was with the introduction of the 333s, it has created an atmosphere of 'couldn't care less' I know the RMT are just as bad. I just despair.

Please, somebody somewhere introduce a level of common sense.
 

Bletchleyite

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I certainly think the person with the door button and a means of stopping the train (be that the brake handle or the buzzer) being able to see the PTI as the train departs is a massive potential safety gain. This was lost, as you say, with the coming of the 15x (except 150/1) and there have been accidents (such as one of the Merseyrail ones) which might at least have been reduced in severity were it possible[1].

I don't think I'd use an arbitrary speed, but would instead have the driver press a button to turn it off once they have fully left the platform - but to me in any form it is a benefit in my book.

[1] Or if the dispatch process was still what it used to be on units with a non-interlock crew door like 50x - up to the early 2000s Merseyrail guards would bell the train out and remain by the open door ready to give 1 on the bell until it was certain that there could be no PTI incident, i.e. they had passed all visible people on the platform or there weren't any there.
 

Gems

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I certainly think the person with the door button and a means of stopping the train (be that the brake handle or the buzzer) being able to see the PTI as the train departs is a massive potential safety gain. This was lost, as you say, with the coming of the 15x (except 150/1) and there have been accidents (such as one of the Merseyrail ones) which might at least have been reduced in severity were it possible[1].

I don't think I'd use an arbitrary speed, but would instead have the driver press a button to turn it off once they have fully left the platform - but to me in any form it is a benefit in my book.

[1] Or if the dispatch process was still what it used to be on units with a non-interlock crew door like 50x - up to the early 2000s Merseyrail guards would bell the train out and remain by the open door ready to give 1 on the bell until it was certain that there could be no PTI incident, i.e. they had passed all visible people on the platform or there weren't any there.
I am aware of one incident a few years ago where a guard did manage to stop the train when someone fell down the gap. It was a nasty incident and he did get badly hurt, but he is probably still alive as a result
But there is nothing to stop the role evolving where the guard could be compelled to be at the door even if he hasn't closed them as a second pair of eyes. There is so much that could be discussed and ironed out. The potential for making what is a pretty safe system even safer is massive.
 

Bletchleyite

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I am aware of one incident a few years ago where a guard did manage to stop the train when someone fell down the gap. It was a nasty incident and he did get badly hurt, but he is probably still alive as a result
But there is nothing to stop the role evolving where the guard could be compelled to be at the door even if he hasn't closed them as a second pair of eyes. There is so much that could be discussed and ironed out. The potential for making what is a pretty safe system even safer is massive.

I do wonder if a method of working in which the guard acts as a dispatch assistant might work - that is, they don't press the button, but do signal to the driver using the buzzer that station working is complete, and then the driver does the work, but as you say the guard remains by the door "just in case". Kind of a modified version of Voyager "10 bell" working[1]. I got the impression, but may be wrong, that Polish FLIRTs were worked in this manner, albeit with the "close up and go" instruction appearing to be given via a portable radio set.

It does seem a gap in present methods that someone could see a person fall down the gap but there would be no way to get the train to stop in time - even TPE clearly are concerned about this, given the other thread about dispatch assistants at York.

[1] Though I do find 10-bell working a bit bizarre on units that, so far as I am aware, never had any plan to be worked DOO.
 

yorksrob

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You know what the shame of all this is. If the government had not changed union legislation where a vote has to take place every six month, we might not be here now. It was a race to get the ballot out before the law changed, and now we are where we are. Tragic isn't the word.
This strike was called before a single unit was even built, and now they are being built it is going to be a mammoth task to change hearts and minds. I have heard first hand, and my mind is changing. Can the management and the DFT change also? There is so much potential to turn what is basically a basket case rail franchise into something so much better, lets all hope the adults come out to play at some point because these units are the most comfortable units in the Northern fleet by a mile.

Yes, I certainly agree with that sentiment.

So the new trains are even better than a 156 you say ?
 

Robertj21a

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I mean look. It has been said that this strike is not about safety. It is about safety. It is for me. Nobody wants to see passengers get hurt, and anybody who isn't bothered by that prospect should not be in this job.
But if these issues are safely overcome with high tech systems, then it is time to move on from that. At the end of the day in my experience the most dangerous part of dispatch is the crucial moments between hitting the door close button and the train moving. Once it is moving we have very limited visibility anyhow unless you are on a 321, 322, or 150 slam door, and you can stick your head out the window. With this concept in mind, you have to say that having a camera link that can observe the platform up to 13MPH has to be beneficial to everyone.
I do suspect ASLEF might have a word about that though.

As for the second person. It needs some radical thinking. The more anything relies on software the more potential for things to go wrong. The leasing company is insisting the units have to be set up for DCO, Guard operation, and guard closing only. So if you are serious about keeping a second person, why not evolve the role but keep them able to take over should it be needed. It is common sense to me, and common sense has been sadly lacking this past two years.

I also think Northern are doing a great dis-service to it's staff. We have what feels like a war footing instead of involving them. Instead of making it a exciting time like it was with the introduction of the 333s, it has created an atmosphere of 'couldn't care less' I know the RMT are just as bad. I just despair.

Please, somebody somewhere introduce a level of common sense.


Some good points in there. Recognising that all parties come out of this rather poorly, wouldn't it be a sensible move for the RMT to suspend their strikes, in return for more meaningful discussions (with absolutely no conditions) to go ahead ?
 

agbrs_Jack

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I mean look. It has been said that this strike is not about safety. It is about safety.

Although I kind of see where you are coming from, I do not think strikes are the answer.
What part of forcing passengers onto the already busy roads is safer than letting us travel by train? DOO is safer than driving.

Please, somebody somewhere introduce a level of common sense.
No one can disagree with this.
 

Carlisle

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CaptainHaddock

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It does seem are like the RMT are stepping up the propaganda war. Have a look at this piece from a hopelessly naive young journalist who still thinks the dispute is all about safety. One rather suspects she's not wholly impartial....

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-train-passengers-unsafe-back-strike-northern
The union’s pamphlet The Role of the Guard collates its members’ reports of preventing sexual assaults, breaking up fights, administering first aid, keeping rival football supporters separate and guiding passengers to safe exits when doors, and sometimes entire trains, fail.

Some of the cases are hair-raising: a guard treats a passenger for a “life-threatening abdominal wound”; another has to keep passengers safe when “a woman commit(s) suicide by setting herself on fire in the toilet cubicle”. A “drunken male” wanders through a train waving a smashed wine bottle; the guard talks him into putting it down. Bear in mind that these events all occur mid-journey, on services that have up to half an hour between stops, while the driver is insulated in his cab.

If you are a woman travelling alone, particularly after the evening rush hour, guards are essential.
 
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northwichcat

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So RMT have rejected an independent ACAS inquiry backed by Travel Watch, DfT and local business groups. What exactly is their excuse for that?

Northern said:
Employers, Passenger Groups and elected representatives across the North today gave their support for an independent ACAS Inquiry in a bid to make progress in resolving the RMT dispute.

Northern has formally asked ACAS to set up an independent Inquiry in a further attempt to get RMT involved in discussions to resolve its dispute which is now approaching its second anniversary. The Inquiry would have an independent chair and panel members and contributions would be invited from any interested parties including customer groups, trade unions, business groups, accessibility bodies and the rail industry.

Chris Dale, Chair for TravelWatch NorthWest:

“TravelWatch NorthWest has always held the view that a second member of staff is required on Northern services for accessibility, safety and customer services. This has been guaranteed in recent statements. Therefore, we welcome Northern’s proposal for an independent inquiry and we are surprised that the RMT has not yet agreed to it. We would urge all parties to consider the needs of passengers and find a resolution to this dispute as soon as possible.”

Emma Degg, Chief Executive of the North West Business Leadership Team (NWBLT):

“We welcome this proactive initiative on the part of Northern to seek to resolve the ongoing strike action that has caused so much damage to our region’s economy. We hope both sides can work together to deliver the much needed improvements that are planned to our railways in 2019.”

James Ramsbotham, North East of England Chamber of Commerce:

"Businesses across the North East are suffering because of the strike disruption. It is clear to us that an independent ACAS Inquiry has the potential to break the deadlock and end the disruption which is risking jobs and incomes across the region."

“On Wednesday (19 Dec), we made a serious and well-intentioned request for ACAS to establish an independent inquiry. In the space of a few hours, RMT rejected the opportunity to make its case at an independent inquiry and then announced strike action for every Saturday in January.

“ACAS is a respected independent organisation that has helped settle many disputes including those in the railway industry. We call again on RMT to join us in committing to the inquiry and suspending its industrial action whilst the inquiry takes place.”

RMT’s latest announcement will mean Northern’s customers have had to endure strikes every Saturday in September, October, November, December and now January.

David Brown added: “More than 50% of all rail journeys in the UK are made on driver-controlled trains and recently the Department for Transport and Transport for the North publicly confirmed that a second person – in addition to the driver – would be retained on Northern services.

“This second person will provide customer service, including meeting customer needs on accessibility, safety, security, ticketing and information. Therefore, there is no reason for the RMT to continue its disruptive and economically damaging strikes but despite this, the RMT continues with its strike action.”

Northern has promised conductors that their future role will be on-board our trains, guaranteeing that role until at least 2025, their current pay will be protected (starting salary for conductors is £28,250 pa), and their pay will be reviewed annually, if RMT ends its damaging dispute.

The RMT strike action for the remaining Saturdays in December will see Northern running approximately 700 services - but with very few Northern services running after 5pm. Those Northern services that do run, and other operators’ services, are expected to be extremely busy. Customers are asked to check before they travel and consider alternative travel options as a result of RMT action.

A Department for Transport spokesperson said:

“We want this strike to end: guarantees have been offered over jobs and pay and we have confirmed we want to see a second person on Northern trains.

“With these guarantees in place, no wonder the public are asking why the RMT won't be reasonable, come to the table and put passengers first.”

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/n...nt-inquiry-to-resolve-rmt-dispute-at-northern
 

northwichcat

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It does seem are like the RMT are stepping up the propaganda war. Have a look at this piece from a hopelessly naive young journalist who still thinks the dispute is all about safety. One rather suspects she's not wholly impartial....

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-train-passengers-unsafe-back-strike-northern

Based on my journeys this week (15 minute journeys) the guard has been visible on 20% of services and none of them have been too full for the guard to walk through. Now I say visible on 20% but on one that was because two of the guard's Northern colleagues (likely off duty guards by what they were wearing and the time they were travelling) were sat at the back of the train and she spent the entire time she wasn't doing the door duties sitting and chatting to them. Then half of the services the guard has been visible on they've delayed the train by being slow to release doors at stations, so that leaves just 5% or 1 journey where the guard got the balance of revenue and door/dispatch duties correct - he also seemed to be a guard who enjoyed the customer service aspect of his job description. If guards can get it wrong 95% of the time by not being visible or delaying the train when they are, why would passengers be in favour of keeping things as they are?
 

DaveB10780

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Based on my journeys this week (15 minute journeys) the guard has been visible on 20% of services and none of them have been too full for the guard to walk through. Now I say visible on 20% but on one that was because two of the guard's Northern colleagues (likely off duty guards by what they were wearing and the time they were travelling) were sat at the back of the train and she spent the entire time she wasn't doing the door duties sitting and chatting to them. Then half of the services the guard has been visible on they've delayed the train by being slow to release doors at stations, so that leaves just 5% or 1 journey where the guard got the balance of revenue and door/dispatch duties correct - he also seemed to be a guard who enjoyed the customer service aspect of his job description. If guards can get it wrong 95% of the time by not being visible or delaying the train when they are, why would passengers be in favour of keeping things as they are?
Yep that sums up. At my local station this is typical, rainy day, train pulls up, we go to door. A couple of minutes later it opens, we are drowned. Come on folks stop having your delusions about what the strike is about and GET BACK TO WORK PLEASE.
 

DaveB10780

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I reckon the Guardian should admit to that being a paid for advertisement from the RMT
If that load of garbage appears in my Saturday paper I will certainly send them a letter suggesting this may not actually be a true reflection of the real picture.
 

Tomnick

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@Gems, thanks for the useful insights you’ve provided - very helpful. Now, some questions if I may... :)

A second, safety-critical, member of staff who’s competent in dispatch duties but doesn’t normally do them sounds rather like the GA deal to me. Has there been any discussion about how it might work in practice? If, for example, you’re working a train in such a role and identify a wheelchair user needing to board, how can you prevent the train being dispatched whilst you either make your way to the correct door to help them board or even just pop back onto the train to get the ramp? I understand that Southern’s OBS’s have the ability to hold a set of doors open by putting a key on at the local panel - is there anything similar on the new Northern units?

It’s interesting (and positive) to note that the bodyside camera outputs can be viewed in the rear cab too. Would you agree that the second member of staff, trained in dispatch, is in a better position to observe these from the back cab whilst departing from a complex station such as Leeds? I can’t imagine drivers being willing or able or encouraged to pay them much attention when there’s so much in front of them to concentrate on - yet surely these are the stations where the dispatch risks are generally greater?

I’m still at a loss to understand why you wouldn’t have the second member of staff routinely dispatch the train, if they’re there and competent to do so anyway!
 

trainophile

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Northern just tweeted, now striking every Saturday until the end of January.
https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/1078213890100609025
RMT UNION STRIKE ACTION ⚠ Planned for every Saturday until the end of January. Services will be limited likely to end by 5PM You can find information on Delay Repay below ⬇️ For all information please see here: http://bit.ly/ARNStrike

Customers who travel on a strike day and experience a journey delay of 15 minutes or ore can claim compensation through Northern's Delay Repay scheme...
It's about time the government stepped in. This is ruinous for the country's economy, Saturday being the main shopping day for most people, not to mention football attendance.
 
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jfollows

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The Times today: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/northern-rail-dispute-hits-new-set-of-buffers-n3b0233kl

Nothing surprising or new for this thread but at least it's getting national newspaper coverage.

The train operator and the trade union behind disruption on the Northern railway network have fallen out over how Acas should be involved in resolving their two-year dispute.

Arriva, the German-owned operator of Northern train services, claimed widespread support yesterday its call for an independent inquiry into the row by the arbitration and conciliation service. However, the RMT union claimed that the demand for such an inquiry was a “public relations stunt” and that talks should be opened at Acas.

The two sides are battling over the downgrading or ending of the role of train guards — typically represented by the RMT — in favour of driver-only trains, in which drivers — generally represented by the Aslef rail union — control the opening and closing of doors. Critics argue among other things that such a system undermines passenger safety on busy commuter routes.

Northern is the regional train service covering the North West and North East regions of England. Beset by punctuality problems and customer service issues and ridiculed for its use of 1970s two-car Pacer trains, Northern has been hit repeatedly by strikes, including every Saturday for the past four months. This Saturday’s planned strike will be the 42nd day of action in the present dispute.

David Brown, managing director of Northern, cited support from business, passengers and local politicians for an independent inquiry into the dispute. “We made a serious and well-intentioned request for Acas to establish an independent inquiry,” he said. “Acas is a respected independent organisation that has helped to settle many disputes, including those in the railway industry. We call again on RMT to join us in committing to the inquiry and suspending its industrial action while the inquiry takes place.

The RMT said that its members wanted Northern to address the issues under dispute in talks at Acas. “The call for an inquiry is nothing more than a PR stunt and we have not seen any proposals from Northern whatsoever that would make serious progress in terms of resolving the dispute,” Mick Cash, the union’s general secretary, said. “The company are seeking to kick the issue of rail safety into the long grass indefinitely rather than facing up to the fundamental issue of the guard guarantee on their trains.”
 
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yorksrob

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It seems that both sides are content to fiddle with the deckchairs while Rome burns.
 

cactustwirly

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It seems that both sides are content to fiddle with the deckchairs while Rome burns.

Well Northern have no choice, it's written into their FA that a proportion of trains must be DOO.
The RMT has more to lose than Northern.
 

woodmally

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Northern just tweeted, now striking every Saturday until the end of January.
Quick tip for you. I follow the RMT page for regular strike updates. It will appear there first. Unless you want to just assume it will be every Saturday till DOO gets implemented.
 

cactustwirly

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It's about time the government stepped in. This is ruinous for the country's economy, Saturday being the main shopping day for most people, not to mention football attendance.

And do what exactly?
The government are the ones bailing out Northern on strike days!
 
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