Remind me did the old Northern franchise give a guarantee of employment to guards beyond 2016, if not why wasn't the RMT bothered about that but they are bothered about a guarantee ending in 2026.
More the reason not to trust them isn't it.
Jobs promised on Monday. But Tuesday is a different story. Perhaps we should all work for the minimum wage, pay little or no tax, then when the country has no money left to pay for the likes of the NHS, the Tories will be happy.
Perhaps because the old Northern didn't institute a long-term programme of eliminating their current jobs ?
Anyway, getting back to my question, are you seriously saying that you would personally trade a job for life for a job guaranteed (maybe) for 6 years ?
But Arriva have gone running back with the begging bowl. I bet the DFT can find money for German state railway profits.There is no such thing as permanent job security unless you are a self-employed undertaker who never makes mistakes. The line of argument that says society as a whole has to fund certain jobs in perpetuity is utterly false, society has to do no such thing. Given that costs are ultimately paid by taxpayers (by increasing subsidy or reducing premiums in the case of railways) there will come a point where no government can afford ever increasing costs of all public services. When it comes to a choice every political party chooses to fund the NHS and everything else loses out.
Perhaps because the old Northern didn't institute a long-term programme of eliminating their current jobs ?
Anyway, getting back to my question, are you seriously saying that you would personally trade a job for life for a job guaranteed (maybe) for 6 years ?
But Arriva have gone running back with the begging bowl. I bet the DFT can find money for German state railway profits.
Pretty much no jobs are "guaranteed for life" any longer - certainly not in the Railway Industry. This has been the case for a while now. No amount of disruption caused to passengers through strike action will stop that.
Do you seriously expect jcollins to agree with any criticism of anyone on Team DOO?
Surely you get the promise in the form of a contract so the terms can't be broken.
And do you think the trains will stop if they all depart? If they are complaining, and it is questionable, they are only complaining because they got their sums wrong.As pointed out many times before with both Arriva and Abellio there's more money being sent to Britain than the other way. There's people in their respective head offices questioning why overall they are losing money on their British operations.
Do you seriously expect jcollins to agree with any criticism of anyone on Team DOO?
Notwork rail is owned by DfT. They will do as their masters command.
There is no such thing as permanent job security unless you are a self-employed undertaker who never makes mistakes. The line of argument that says society as a whole has to fund certain jobs in perpetuity is utterly false, society has to do no such thing. Given that costs are ultimately paid by taxpayers (by increasing subsidy or reducing premiums in the case of railways) there will come a point where no government can afford ever increasing costs of all public services. When it comes to a choice every political party chooses to fund the NHS and everything else loses out.
It is clear that you don't really understand the reality of working life for many people in Britain. The 'contract' no longer entitles them to work or pay
And do you think the trains will stop if they all depart? If they are complaining, and it is questionable, they are only complaining because they got their sums wrong.
Are you saying there is a clause in the contract of Northern guards saying the job is guaranteed until retirement? If not then you're talking rubbish as Northern can make any guard redundant if they give the notice specified in the contract. Arriva are saying they'll give up their right to use that clause - only a mad person would think that's not a brilliant offer.
Not the case at all. A guard is "safety critical" if they have any involvement in the operation of the train, whether or not it's equipped for DOO. Chiltern and Southeastern have trains that are not only equipped for DOO, but are worked DOO only inside a certain area, outside which a guard - safety critical - has to be provided. There's no reason why the same couldn't apply to some or all Northern services operated by the new trains, e.g. if a compromise was to accept DOO only on suburban routes with better staffed stations.A guard is only 'safety critical' if the train is not equipped for DOO so once the 195s and 331s are introduced the guard becomes optional whether you like it or not.
In fairness, the guard made a mistake under pressure, which isn't really any different to what happened in the DOO cases. Guards aren't infallible either, but what matters is that these things are far, far more likely to happen on DOO trains (evidenced by the proportion of relevant RAIB reports involving DOO trains - well over 80%, the only two exceptions being James Street and the one at Newcastle).Yes there was. And again the guard got no sympathy because he had failed miserably. But the common denominator in these incidents was the guard walked, in one case into Walton jail. How many drivers on DCO have walked after similar incidents? I am aware of non, because it is all part of making the inevitable acceptable.
For one, there's obvious and significant benefits - safety and cost - to moving towards power signalling and significant advances in technology over several decades to make it possible, and to reduce overall workload. For another, the implementation has been totally different - Network Rail and their predecessors have always been totally open about the loss of jobs, and the union has instead focussed on making sure that everyone who wants a job gets a job, and that it's all handled fairly.Cant see why DOO is seen as such a safety issue when removing signalmen from the lineside isnt
There was a case reported on railforums about someone seeing a HST with a cover open. But no signalman to see it.
And level crossing safety too. If there had been a crossing keeper, then ufton nervert would not have happened.
Seems RMT are a bit selective in their safety concerns.
There is absolutely no reason why the existing staff can't be more visible whilst doing their existing role, with provision of intermediate door controls and possibly the driver releasing the doors. They'll be no less visible working like that than they would under DOO, with the bonus that they're less likely to become totally invisible because they've been left behind by accident!I'm not a fan of the DfT but you surely can't deny that the plans for more services than ever before, and with staff who are more visible than ever before, is hardly going against ordinary people.
I don't think the flat junctions, at the low speeds in that area, are a huge problem compared to the inability of Piccadilly to handle the large passenger flows and excessive dwell times that result. The 'historic signalling equipment' isn't a problem either.Anyone with half a brain knows running a complicated service over a load of flat junctions coming from places with historic signalling equipment is 'courageous'
As pointed out many times before with both Arriva and Abellio there's more money being sent to Britain than the other way. There's people in their respective head offices questioning why overall they are losing money on their British operations.
No, I am saying that their grade will continue to exist for so long as trains must have guards, but will start not to exist if trains can run without them.
Now, for the third time of asking, if you were in their position, would you give that up ?
Costs increased with privatisation. What you have now is layer upon layer of management and non jobs. It takes an army to work out who gets what when it comes to dividing up ticket sales.And what do you think will happen if the railways are nationalised? Costs will be cut to save the tax payer money (even if Labour are in government.)
FWIW, my view on DOO (which is mixed) is totally unrelated to the disgraceful general conduct of Arriva Rail North (a rotten franchise through and through), nor to that of the RMT (a rotten Union through and through).
Both sides are not exactly smelling of roses.
The contract is called an employment contract and it's a legal contract between the employer and the employee and the main purpose of it is to confirm you are an employee and the employer has to provide work for you until the contract is terminated.
What severe action are they going to take? Shout rude things at us. I mean if they want to ban overtime I'll happily stay in bed on Sunday morning. A lot of Sunday shoppers are going to be very upset on Sunday as well as Saturday, but if they want to bring it on.As I think I've probably said before, I'm feeling increasingly sympathetic towards Arriva if they have to try to negotiate with RMT members who are anything like some of those posting in this thread.
A bit of me hopes that Arriva now drop the 'no redundancies' guarantee (as it's clearly not appreciated by any guards) and then also take more severe action to bring this dispute to an end, quickly.
is weekend working still overtime? I thought that was settled in the flexible rostering dispute in 1982?What severe action are they going to take? Shout rude things at us. I mean if they want to ban overtime I'll happily stay in bed on Sunday morning. A lot of Sunday shoppers are going to be very upset on Sunday as well as Saturday, but if they want to bring it on.
As I think I've probably said before, I'm feeling increasingly sympathetic towards Arriva if they have to try to negotiate with RMT members who are anything like some of those posting in this thread.
A bit of me hopes that Arriva now drop the 'no redundancies' guarantee (as it's clearly not appreciated by any guards) and then also take more severe action to bring this dispute to an end, quickly.
What severe action are they going to take? Shout rude things at us. I mean if they want to ban overtime I'll happily stay in bed on Sunday morning. A lot of Sunday shoppers are going to be very upset on Sunday as well as Saturday, but if they want to bring it on.
Passenger numbers have been increasing for the last 15 years or so, if they started falling again it's likely services will be cut. Even if there were no plans for DOO there's a risk guards are got rid of if services are cut, there is no guarantee that all guards will retain employment as guards long term DOO or no DOO.
Thinks of other people losing jobs. Rubs hands together