Arriva Rail North DOO

[northwichcat]

Some platform staff dread going to work on Saturdays now. It's a toxic situation for which the RMT are clearly principally to blame.

Some ticket office staff are getting abuse too from people who aren't aware there's yet another strike, especially those who have to tell passengers there's no alternative and they'll have to get a lift/taxi or try again tomorrow.

 

[Robertj21a]

Two of my very good friends are RMT reps and they do a very good job for their members. RMT press releases at national standards are disastrous but you have no idea what happens at a local level. You prefer to label the RMT and all its members as dinosaurs without knowing anything that goes on at local levels. The Tories have set their store out and so has Peter Wilkinson. It’s going to take a lot of engagement to heal the rifts. The DFT and Grayling aren’t interested as he likes to blame everyone else for the shambles in his department. I believe the unions have requested a meeting with RMT, ASLEF and Grayling to sort out these disputes but Grayling isn’t interested and would rather hide in the corner.

Dave,


A simple answer would have done, it wasn't an invite to rant about the Tories and Grayling, yet again......

From what I understand, the RMT (and unions in general) are respected for what they do for their members at local level. That's what makes it so difficult to see how the senior level that manages the organisation can be so poor and unprofessional. We're told, continually, that the RMT merely represents the interests of the members and yet many of those same members seem to feel that their top team is sadly lacking. Why on earth don't local members do something about it ?. Can nobody be bothered to stand for election nowadays ?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Some ticket office staff are getting abuse too from people who aren't aware there's yet another strike, especially those who have to tell passengers there's no alternative and they'll have to get a lift/taxi or try again tomorrow.

All the non safety essential platform & ticket office staff should go on strike during the whole working week one week or is that just OTT?

 

[Robertj21a]

What jobs, after 2025 ?

What makes you any more of an expert on the real world than the average train guard ?

It doesn't take too long for your posts to start dripping with contempt towards people about whom you know nothing, along with your basesless sense of your own superiority.

Yes, jobs after 2025 - you know, that massive 6 year timescale where Arriva has, perhaps rather stupidly, offered 'No redundancies'. I suppose that you'll next claim that there will be no jobs after 2025.........

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, jobs after 2025 - you know, that massive 6 year timescale where Arriva has, perhaps rather stupidly, offered 'No redundancies'. I suppose that you'll next claim that there will be no jobs after 2025.........

How does anyone else on here think Arriva can guarantee anything beyond the end of their franchise?

They can't guarantee the whole kit and caboodle won't be closed down the day after their franchise, let alone whether there will be jobs for everyone or not. That much is down to the elected Government of the time, and if the RMT think they can do any more than that this is going to go on for a long, long time, even if Arriva end up abandoning DOO entirely and retaining "classic" guards on all services.

 

[B&I]

No. The far left are the RMT and their supporters. They are extremists who are against ordinary people going about their business.

I know plenty of people who are moderately left wing who are pro-railways and know that the railways in the Glasgow area are a good service for passengers and there is a visible, friendly staff presence, and know that it would be good if the current abysmal service on Northern could be raised to those levels.

Yet the RMT's supporters claim such people are Tory supporters, which seems to be used as some sort of insult. All it does is make the RMTs supporters look more and more desperate and detached from reality.

'For more information, please re-read'. I did not say everyone who supported DOO was a Tory fanatic, but some of them are.

As for being against ordinary people going about their business, that is a pretty perfect description of this government in general, and the DfT in particular. I'm an ordinary person and the government is trying to.put me out of business at the behest of large corporate interests who pay substantial amounts to its MPs to pay policies in their favour, in a process which mystifyingly doesn't seem to amount to corruption under our law. More particularly, the DfT prevent me from going about my business by providing a lamentably bad railway service to the part of England I live in.

 

[B&I]

When you see your friends and colleagues genuinely worried for their futures and that of their families lambasted as hard nosed socialists merely attempting to bring the Government down by two right wing Tory MPs who then refused to actually talk to these ordinary working people about their concerns it kind of opens your eyes a bit. Never seen such utter contempt for the ordinary working man. They were far more concerned with spouting their dribbling nonsense to the camera to then jump in their expensive cars and get out of there.

Sorry for the dig, but you're aware of what the ordinary people of this country are now up against. If only some other posters on here could see the same

 

[yorkie]

Yes, jobs after 2025 - you know, that massive 6 year timescale where Arriva has, perhaps rather stupidly, offered 'No redundancies'. I suppose that you'll next claim that there will be no jobs after 2025.........

If anything there will be more jobs on Northern, because of the increase in services.

How does anyone else on here think Arriva can guarantee anything beyond the end of their franchise?

That's all part of the RMT's plan; they know full well that the franchise holder cannot make the guarantees, which means it does not matter who holds the franchise, the strikes will happen regardless.

As for being against ordinary people going about their business, that is a pretty perfect description of this government in general, and the DfT in particular. I'm an ordinary person and the government is trying to.put me out of business at the behest of large corporate interests who pay substantial amounts to its MPs to pay policies in their favour, in a process which mystifyingly doesn't seem to amount to corruption under our law.

Can you create a new thread if you wish to discuss your own job circumstances further please.

More particularly, the DfT prevent me from going about my business by providing a lamentably bad railway service to the part of England I live in.

I'm not a fan of the DfT but you surely can't deny that the plans for more services than ever before, and with staff who are more visible than ever before, is hardly going against ordinary people.

 

[Gems]

'For more information, please re-read'. I did not say everyone who supported DOO was a Tory fanatic, but some of them are.

As for being against ordinary people going about their business, that is a pretty perfect description of this government in general, and the DfT in particular. I'm an ordinary person and the government is trying to.put me out of business at the behest of large corporate interests who pay substantial amounts to its MPs to pay policies in their favour, in a process which mystifyingly doesn't seem to amount to corruption under our law. More particularly, the DfT prevent me from going about my business by providing a lamentably bad railway service to the part of England I live in.

Yep. The only difference between corruption in the UK and corruption in an African backwater country is that here we are better at hiding it.

 

[Starmill]

Some ticket office staff are getting abuse too from people who aren't aware there's yet another strike, especially those who have to tell passengers there's no alternative and they'll have to get a lift/taxi or try again tomorrow.

The company have committed endless gross breaches of contract in these strikes, by refusing to do anything at all to assist stranded passengers (as per NRCoT) who booked their tickets before the strikes were announced.

They've forced their own staff to lie to passengers and say they've no recourse against this being stranded.

It's ludicrous and does not happen anything like as much when GTR and SWR go on strike.

 

[B&I]

DfT have said they will guarantee the jobs until at least 12 months in to the following franchise. Even then it's only the end of a guarantee which isn't the same as those still employed in the role losing their jobs. On the other hand due to the RMT strikes a lot of those, particularly in the retail sector, have had to reduce their hours or even leave their jobs. The strikes are causing job loses, not preventing them.

But you still expect people to give up their permanent job security in favour of a vague, unenforceable promise made by one of the most untrustworthy governments in British history (which is saying something). You may not agree with that stance, but are you really, truly unable to see why someone might take it ? If you had the choice between a job guaranteed for life and a job guaranteed for 6 years, would you cheerfully trade the former for the latter ?

And, as it takes two to tango, if the government are so concerned about commuters losing their jobs, why aren't they making any attempt at all to resolve the strikes ?

 

[Gems]

But you still expect people to give up their permanent job security in favour of a vague, unenforceable promise made by one of the most untrustworthy governments in British history (which is saying something). You may not agree with that stance, but are you really, truly unable to see why someone might take it ? If you had the choice between a job guaranteed for life and a job guaranteed for 6 years, would you cheerfully trade the former for the latter ?

And, as it takes two to tango, if the government are so concerned about commuters losing their jobs, why aren't they making any attempt at all to resolve the strikes ?

Jobs promised on Monday. But Tuesday is a different story. Perhaps we should all work for the minimum wage, pay little or no tax, then when the country has no money left to pay for the likes of the NHS, the Tories will be happy.

 

[northwichcat]

But you still expect people to give up their permanent job security in favour of a vague, unenforceable promise made by one of the most untrustworthy governments in British history (which is saying something). You may not agree with that stance, but are you really, truly unable to see why someone might take it ? If you had the choice between a job guaranteed for life and a job guaranteed for 6 years, would you cheerfully trade the former for the latter ?

And, as it takes two to tango, if the government are so concerned about commuters losing their jobs, why aren't they making any attempt at all to resolve the strikes ?

Remind me did the old Northern franchise give a guarantee of employment to guards beyond 2016, if not why wasn't the RMT bothered about that but they are bothered about a guarantee ending in 2026.

 

[B&I]

Yes, jobs after 2025 - you know, that massive 6 year timescale where Arriva has, perhaps rather stupidly, offered 'No redundancies'. I suppose that you'll next claim that there will be no jobs after 2025.........

Not entirely sure how to respond to this as a lot of words seem to have collided in this post without quite forming sentences.

However,
1. in the narrower context, if the railways are being de-staffed, there will be fewer jobs available for ex-guards within the railway after 2025 when the guarantees end
2. in any real sense, there will be fewer worthwhile, secure, properly paying, proper jobs if your favourite party remains in power.

 

[Starmill]

If you had the choice between a job guaranteed for life and a job guaranteed for 6 years, would you cheerfully trade the former for the latter ?

Pretty much no jobs are "guaranteed for life" any longer - certainly not in the Railway Industry. This has been the case for a while now. No amount of disruption caused to passengers through strike action will stop that.

 

[Ken H]

If anything there will be more jobs on Northern, because of the increase in services.

That's all part of the RMT's plan; they know full well that the franchise holder cannot make the guarantees, which means it does not matter who holds the franchise, the strikes will happen regardless.

Can you create a new thread if you wish to discuss your own job circumstances further please.

I'm not a fan of the DfT but you surely can't deny that the plans for more services than ever before, and with staff who are more visible than ever before, is hardly going against ordinary people.

Maybe if the DfT were to actually ask railway men about what is actually possible rather than talking bollocks we would have less screwups like the Northern hub and the May 2018 timetable fiasco. Anyone with half a brain knows running a complicated service over a load of flat junctions coming from places with historic signalling equipment is 'courageous'

 

[northwichcat]

Jobs promised on Monday. But Tuesday is a different story.

Surely you get the promise in the form of a contract so the terms can't be broken.

 

[Ken H]

Not entirely sure how to respond to this as a lot of words seem to have collided in this post without quite forming sentences.

However,
1. in the narrower context, if the railways are being de-staffed, there will be fewer jobs available for ex-guards within the railway after 2025 when the guarantees end
2. in any real sense, there will be fewer worthwhile, secure, properly paying, proper jobs if your favourite party remains in power.

surely natural wastage on drivers at northern will create possibilities to cross train for guards?

 

[Gems]

Surely you get the promise in the form of a contract so the terms can't be broken.

Did Southern guards not have a contract? What happened there? Walked all over.

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe if the DfT were to actually ask railway men about what is actually possible rather than talking bollocks we would have less screwups like the Northern hub and the May 2018 timetable fiasco. Anyone with half a brain knows running a complicated service over a load of flat junctions coming from places with historic signalling equipment is 'courageous'

Remember it was Network Rail who told them what is possible and Northern didn't even introduce all the services which Network Rail said was possible. People questioned how Network Rail thought diverting Liverpool to Scarborough via Victoria alone would create paths for an additional Greenbank, New Mills Newtown and Macclesfield service but it was the 'railway men' who said it was possible, only for them to backtrack.

 

[Ken H]

Surely you get the promise in the form of a contract so the terms can't be broken.

you can bet that there will be some get out clause on that.
Like if Northerns German parent company decide mounting losses mean they throw back the keys.

 

[Gems]

surely natural wastage on drivers at northern will create possibilities to cross train for guards?

Can't all be drivers for various reasons.

 

[Starmill]

Did Southern guards not have a contract? What happened there? Walked all over.

Well they were made redundant weren't they? In line with the law, and their contracts. Just as Northern's guards could be, given none of these guarantees mean anything as they've not been agreed by the Union.

 

[Ken H]

Remember it was Network Rail who told them what is possible and Northern didn't even introduce all the services which Network Rail said was possible. People questioning how Network Rail thought diverting Liverpool to Scarborough via Victoria alone would create paths for an additional Greenbank, New Mills Newtown and Macclesfield service but it was the 'railway men' who said it was possible, only for them to backtrack.

Notwork rail is owned by DfT. They will do as their masters command.

 

[northwichcat]

Did Southern guards not have a contract? What happened there? Walked all over.

Southern guards weren't given a guarantee of employment at the guard grade for a number of years. Govia actually planned to make guards redundant and to advertise OBS posts if the guards didn't agree to a change. Southern guards would have killed for the promise you've been given but the RMT have probably ended up rejecting.

 

[B&I]

If anything there will be more jobs on Northern, because of the increase in services.

Like the ones they're not currently running. Come back to me whenever the government has actually invested something i. The railways up here and they're providing anything like a reliable service.

Can you create a new thread if you wish to discuss your own job circumstances further please.

So you're allowed to throw around your views about people you disagree with belonging to the 'far left', and accuse them of preventing 'ordinary people' from 'going about their business', but I'm not allowed to discuss this issue within the context of the overall national economic and employment situation, and how that might be preventing people 'going about their business', using my own experience to illustrate it. Glad to see that the forum is being moderated with Peter Wilkinson-like political impartiality.

 

[Gems]

Southern guards weren't given a guarantee of employment at the guard grade for a number of years. Govia actually planned to make guards redundant and to advertise OBS posts if the guards didn't agree to a change. Southern guards would have killed for the promise you've been given but the RMT have probably ended up rejecting.

More the reason not to trust them isn't it.

 

[northwichcat]

you can bet that there will be some get out clause on that.
Like if Northerns German parent company decide mounting losses mean they throw back the keys.

If the term in inserted in to the employment contract it transfers to the next franchise under TUPE protection so will only become invalid when it expires. Of course no employer is going to insert a clause which prevents them sacking employees who commit gross misconduct so of course they'll be an exception clause.

 

[Confused52]

But you still expect people to give up their permanent job security in favour of a vague, unenforceable promise made by one of the most untrustworthy governments in British history (which is saying something). You may not agree with that stance, but are you really, truly unable to see why someone might take it ? If you had the choice between a job guaranteed for life and a job guaranteed for 6 years, would you cheerfully trade the former for the latter ?

And, as it takes two to tango, if the government are so concerned about commuters losing their jobs, why aren't they making any attempt at all to resolve the strikes ?

There is no such thing as permanent job security unless you are a self-employed undertaker who never makes mistakes. The line of argument that says society as a whole has to fund certain jobs in perpetuity is utterly false, society has to do no such thing. Given that costs are ultimately paid by taxpayers (by increasing subsidy or reducing premiums in the case of railways) there will come a point where no government can afford ever increasing costs of all public services. When it comes to a choice every political party chooses to fund the NHS and everything else loses out.

 

[Starmill]

you can bet that there will be some get out clause on that.
Like if Northerns German parent company decide mounting losses mean they throw back the keys.

No. If Arriva walk away from the contract, they will lose big money. They could still do that, and it would be their choice between doing that and sticking with it, either as it is or in whatever form they manage to agree with DfT after Change or renegotiation. The calculation may be of which loses them less.