Arriva Rail North DOO

[LittleAH]

Except it’s mostly done by bots......

It really isn't. Otherwise enquiries by social media would be done 24/7.

 

[Tomnick]

This is a significant point and answers a question I asked some time ago. Put simply a Safety Critical second member of staff on every does not mean that person controls the despatch at every stop or indeed at any stop, only that the person could do so and in addition help the driver as needed. That means there is wiggle room if the RMT drop the apparent need for that person to be on every train without fail.

I understand that the first part of that, at least, is part of the basis of the agreement on GA?

On SWR the guards open the doors and it takes bloody ages. And the reports said guard despatch was slower and less safe too didn’t they? A driver self dispatching with the OBS on the platform would be incompetent

Driver release, guard close would probably be acceptable to the RMT and would eliminate the delay of which you speak. I don't believe any report has credibly stated that guard dispatch is less safe - the since-hidden RSSB report into implementation stated that the likelihood of each of thirteen "undesired events" being realised was greater under DOO.

The last one, though. Why would a driver dispatching a train with the OBS on the platform be "incompetent"? The driver only has a very narrow view along the dispatch corridor so won't see them unless they're standing close to the train (as opposed to moving further back onto the platform to help someone, perhaps someone who's asked them a question). The OBS won't necessarily stand out from the crowd on a busy platform, in any case.

How often do things go catastrophically wrong demanding some knowledge that control can’t instruct over the phone? I am not arguing for dragging contract staff off the street with no training at all....

For starters, our trains, and Northern's too, run through plenty of areas where the phone signal is non-existent. Yes, there's GSM-R (assuming it's working), but then you're tied to a cab whilst using it. When emergency protection is required, though, there isn't time to talk to Control, and in any case route knowledge is crucial in that case. There's a good few collisions (level crossings, fallen trees, landslips etc.) each year where it's necessary and the possibility of the driver (and/or the GSM-R) being taken out by any of those collisions is very real.

The reason for the driver to despatch the train is that is is much quicker. Between 10 and 20 seconds. Its the dead time taken for the guard to close his door give 2 get 2 back and the train to move. With driver door operation you don't get that delay. When you can have a train with more than 20 stops in a journey that can be a significant amount of time. I should imagine its the reason RMT have accepted that the driver will operate the doors on Merseyrail.

You won't get confusion AIUI. The OBS puts a key in the panel which will prevent their door closing so the driver will not get interlock.

I accept that it's slightly quicker for the driver to dispatch the train, until he makes a mistake, that is. The RSSB put the reduction in dwell time at seven seconds, if I remember correctly, and that seems about right to me on most trains. You'll soon lose the minute or so that you gain when it's busy and passengers are trying to pile on with cycles in the wrong place, unfolded pushchairs blocking vestibules or just the never-ending problem of everyone trying to board through just one door.

Having a key on somewhere along the length of the train, with no obvious indication to the driver, sounds like a recipe for confusion as I've said before. Is the door remaining open because the OBS has a key on, or is it because someone's holding it open, or is it because it's broken? What if the OBS is at a door two coaches away from the wheelchair space? How do they get to the door adjacent to the wheelchair space without risking being left behind and without leaving a door panel open and unattended?

 

[scrapy]

I agree with him. The RMT are a bunch of change-averse Luddites who do not consider the passenger or taxpayer at all.

There are of course more sensible unions such as ASLEF.

Do you really think the situation would be different if the government /dft wanted to remove a drivers responsibilities? ASLEF and Northern still haven't been able to agree over drivers on being given tablets even though talks began over two years ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you really think the situation would be different if the government /dft wanted to remove a drivers responsibilities? ASLEF and Northern still haven't been able to agree over drivers on being given tablets even though talks began over two years ago.

And this sort of thing really gets my goat, as I don't think the Unions have any business objecting to something like this. No private sector employee gets to object if they get their IT hardware/software swapped.

 

[Dave1987]

It really isn't. Otherwise enquiries by social media would be done 24/7.

You would be surprised by the amount of online customer service stuff that is now conducted by AI. The utopia that humans will be used for customer service roles in the future is completely false. Face to face human interaction is what AI is rubbish at but companies are obsessed with getting us to go online specifically so you interact with their AI and they can ditch more staff. So @Bletchleyite vision of humans doing customer service roles in the very distant future is complete rubbish.

 

[Tomnick]

And this sort of thing really gets my goat, as I don't think the Unions have any business objecting to something like this. No private sector employee gets to object if they get their IT hardware/software swapped.

Presumably it relates more to the use of them, training provided, distraction risks and consequences, that sort of thing - given how hot the topic of electronic devices in cabs is at the moment (obviously with a focus on personal devices), I'm not particularly surprised that the union are taking a keen interest.

 

[6Gman]

And this sort of thing really gets my goat, as I don't think the Unions have any business objecting to something like this. No private sector employee gets to object if they get their IT hardware/software swapped.

But they are private sector employees ...

 

[Dave1987]

And this sort of thing really gets my goat, as I don't think the Unions have any business objecting to something like this. No private sector employee gets to object if they get their IT hardware/software swapped.

Again you are showing naivety. ASLEF doesn’t object to the distribution of devices. It’s the policies regarding their use that is usually the negotiating points.

 

[LittleAH]

You would be surprised by the amount of online customer service stuff that is now conducted by AI. The utopia that humans will be used for customer service roles in the future is completely false. Face to face human interaction is what AI is rubbish at but companies are obsessed with getting us to go online specifically so you interact with their AI and they can ditch more staff. So @Bletchleyite vision of humans doing customer service roles in the very distant future is complete rubbish.

I'm not doubting that. Every time I have an issue with Talk Talk, unless it's the second time I ring, it's largely automated.

However, when it comes to TOC's it's done by people in specific jobs. The issue when it comes to rail, which I feel is coming, is actually buying tickets at a station. Smart cards, phone tickets etc will mean less front line staff, which for the non regular commuter is potentially bad news.

Automation is a massive worry for the near future for many reason. However, currently on the railways, it's not an issue and I can really never see it being so, as human interaction is part of the job.

 

[Starmill]

My employer has happy staff and invests in their staff. We are not a unionised industry nor workplace - I could join one if I wanted, but I don't feel the need.

That is where it should be.

But in any case, my proposal wouldn't mean the T&C/pay of existing staff could be worsened, as they could strike for that if they wished. T&C/pay of new staff could differ, but in the end when you are offered a job you can take it or not take it depending if you accept what is on offer - if they couldn't fill the roles, then they'd have to up the offer.

Because they don't know what their human "overlords" want!

What they can do is assist with software development, which as time goes on gets progressively easier. What they won't do any time soon is understand the human foibles of what the target business requires - human facing work - which is the kind of work people do well.

Ticketing is not dissimilar. I don't need a human to sell me a Merseyrail Daysaver (as I bought one today). I know what I want, I know its price, I know it is the best value ticket for my journey, so I asked for it and got it. If however I had no idea what I wanted, that's when a person comes in. A bank of TVMs and a couple of windows for consultancy - not some windows with massive queues and no TVMs.

My bank? I don't want to talk to a person to do a transfer - I know the target account, I know the amount. But I do want quality service from a person when things go wrong - a skilled, knowledgeable person with the remit to resolve my problem. Humans make bad automatons - they need to be doing human jobs.

You are aware of quite how many customer service roles have been wiped out in recent years and replaced with feeble computerised pseudo-replacements ?

Personally, I find customer service much better and easier than it was in the days of mass call centres. Do you remember, for instance, just how bad National Rail Enquiries by telephone was?

Twitter, for instance, has changed everything.

Except it’s mostly done by bots......

Which is no great issue, surely? Let machines follow scripts, let people deal with complex stuff that people are good at.

And this sort of thing really gets my goat, as I don't think the Unions have any business objecting to something like this. No private sector employee gets to object if they get their IT hardware/software swapped.

You would be surprised by the amount of online customer service stuff that is now conducted by AI. The utopia that humans will be used for customer service roles in the future is completely false. Face to face human interaction is what AI is rubbish at but companies are obsessed with getting us to go online specifically so you interact with their AI and they can ditch more staff. So @Bletchleyite vision of humans doing customer service roles in the very distant future is complete rubbish.

Again you are showing naivety. ASLEF doesn’t object to the distribution of devices. It’s the policies regarding their use that is usually the negotiating points.

I could keep on clickling the muilti-quote button but I think this serves to demonstrate the point. If this passes for discussion about the industrial dispute between Northern and RMT then we may as well all give up totally on the concept of threads right now and just spew everything into one big board, eh?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I could keep on clickling the muilti-quote button but I think this serves to demonstrate the point. If this passes for discussion about the industrial dispute between Northern and RMT then we may as well all give up totally on the concept of threads right now and just spew everything into one big board, eh?

These concepts are all fundamental to the issue of automation and the replacement of humans in jobs, which are fundamental to the likes of DOO.

 

[Dave1987]

I could keep on clickling the muilti-quote button but I think this serves to demonstrate the point. If this passes for discussion about the industrial dispute between Northern and RMT then we may as well all give up totally on the concept of threads right now and just spew everything into one big board, eh?

So only posts bashing the unions or guards are allowed? Or is constructive discussion of the wider issues not allowed?

 

[Dave1987]

I'm not doubting that. Every time I have an issue with Talk Talk, unless it's the second time I ring, it's largely automated.

However, when it comes to TOC's it's done by people in specific jobs. The issue when it comes to rail, which I feel is coming, is actually buying tickets at a station. Smart cards, phone tickets etc will mean less front line staff, which for the non regular commuter is potentially bad news.

Automation is a massive worry for the near future for many reason. However, currently on the railways, it's not an issue and I can really never see it being so, as human interaction is part of the job.

The DFT are already pushing towards a staffless railway.

 

[Starmill]

These concepts are all fundamental to the issue of automation and the replacement of humans in jobs, which are fundamental to the likes of DOO.

This has been addressed:

Just a reminder this thread is to discuss Arriva North DOO.

Feel free to create a separate thread to discuss any other subject, such as automated checkouts, driverless cars etc (providing there is sufficient material to warrant a new thread)

 

[Carlisle]

But they are private sector employees ...

Technically correct, but probably acknowledged by most as pretend capitalism

 

[B&I]

And this sort of thing really gets my goat, as I don't think the Unions have any business objecting to something like this. No private sector employee gets to object if they get their IT hardware/software swapped.

Whilst no-one would condone unions raising a lot of nonsense over nothing, could this whole debate be motivated just the teensiest bit by jealousy towards public sector employees and the benefits they receive from having unions standing behind them ?

 

[Starmill]

Whilst no-one would condone unions raising a lot of nonsense over nothing, could this whole debate be motivated just the teensiest bit by jealousy towards public sector employees and the benefits they receive from having unions standing behind them ?

This sounds like a wild conspiracy to me?

The DFT are already pushing towards a staffless railway.

Any idea what you are talking about? Do you have any evidence of staffless trains running anywhere on the National Rail network, or any way to link this to the dispute between Northern and RMT?

SOr is constructive discussion of the wider issues not allowed?

There is a significant quantity of discussion that is only related to things outwith the dispute between Northern and RMT, and some of it that is only outwith things that relate to the railway industry. I am not sure how anything to do with self-checkouts has 'wider implications' for customers affected by RMT strike action?

Having a key on somewhere along the length of the train, with no obvious indication to the driver, sounds like a recipe for confusion as I've said before. Is the door remaining open because the OBS has a key on, or is it because someone's holding it open, or is it because it's broken? What if the OBS is at a door two coaches away from the wheelchair space? How do they get to the door adjacent to the wheelchair space without risking being left behind and without leaving a door panel open and unattended?

Surely Southern already have answers to all of these questions? If they didn't then they would not be running trains at the moment would they?

 

[B&I]

So only posts bashing the unions or guards are allowed? Or is constructive discussion of the wider issues not allowed?

Personally I think it's very illuminating to consider these wider issues. There are strong correlations apparent on these threads between taking the DfT / government side in this debate, apparent lack of concern about unemployment, and enthusiasm for automation and computerisation replacing humans in their jobs.

 

[B&I]

This sounds like a wild conspiracy to me?

No, I meant what appears to me to be jealousy on the part of certain posters, in private sector employment without the benefits of unionisation, towards public sector workers who benefit from being unionised.

What I think you have in mind is the suggestion that the government are using this dispute in a further attempt to undermine unions and unionised workforces. That is not a wild conspiracy theory - that's a simple observation of what has been happening since 1979

 

[B&I]

Which is no great issue, surely? Let machines follow scripts, let people deal with complex stuff that people are good at.

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why services provided to ordinary consumer are in general becoming worse and worse is because more and more problems are being classified as capable of solution by automated devices (when they're plainly not), just so that companies can sack staff while carrying on selling worse products for more money ?

 

[B&I]

Personally, I find customer service much better and easier than it was in the days of mass call centres. Do you remember, for instance, just how bad National Rail Enquiries by telephone was?

Twitter, for instance, has changed everything.

Computer programs are good at performig routine functions like telling you the time of the next train. They are not good at dealing with anything the slightest bit out of the ordinary, or requiring any thought or flexibility. Recently spent 30 pointless minutes going round in circles on an HMRC computerised 'assistance' scheme trying to find out why they had returned my income tax payment. When eventually I got through to a human, it was in the wrong department. I wonder how much that piece of electronic brilliance cost the taxpayer ?

 

[Starmill]

And that creates a difficult issue - is it right for the unions to be acting to protect the theoretical employment of future staff, rather than simply to protect the terms and conditions of *current* guards? I'm not convinced it is.

Policy not adversely affecting current staff should not in my view be within their remit.

[1] I don't object to them either, but I don't think they should be tied up in party politics, and I don't think they always get what they fight for quite right - often they take a line that is almost Luddism rather than simply trying to protect their current members as they should.

Is it time there was legislation that prevents Unions striking over the theoretical terms and conditions of future staff who haven't even entered the guard or driver grades yet? As that looks to me to be what they are in fact doing.

And that is why I think the RMT are bang out of order, and if they don't wind their necks in they should be at the receiving end of legislation requiring them to protect only the current employment (wage levels and T&C, not specific role) of current members in their current role not some hypothetical future people who haven't even become guards yet.

Unions protecting positions for people who are not even in them yet are going way beyond what is reasonable.

The way this has gone, I would strongly favour laws that restrict the use of industrial action to matters which could or do directly affect the current role of the employee or employees who are withdrawing their labour.

Unions should not in my view be allowed to dictate or seek by way of industrial action to influence future Company policy where it does not affect the current role of members of staff being balloted or proposing to strike, regardless of the grounds for wishing to do so.

I believe, Neil, that the point has been made.

 

[B&I]

Well your great utopia of humans doing customer service work doesn’t stand up really does it. As the AI bots learn the answers to more and more questions that customers ask less and less humans are required. I’m sure even your job will be under threat from automation.

One of the greatest ironies of the automation debate is that people involved in IT and related sectors are usually the greatest proponents of automation, and the most confident that their special skills will mean they will be in jobs forever. I find this ironic because, if automation is all about efficiency, people involved in IT should be the first to be replaced, as their products frequently provide lamentably poor service. However, we are in an Emperor's New Clothes situation in which much of the western population seem to have become the gauldering idiots watching the procession, and the small boy has yet to appear

 

[B&I]

Because they don't know what their human "overlords" want!

What they can do is assist with software development, which as time goes on gets progressively easier. What they won't do any time soon is understand the human foibles of what the target business requires - human facing work - which is the kind of work people do well.

Ticketing is not dissimilar. I don't need a human to sell me a Merseyrail Daysaver (as I bought one today). I know what I want, I know its price, I know it is the best value ticket for my journey, so I asked for it and got it. If however I had no idea what I wanted, that's when a person comes in. A bank of TVMs and a couple of windows for consultancy - not some windows with massive queues and no TVMs.

My bank? I don't want to talk to a person to do a transfer - I know the target account, I know the amount. But I do want quality service from a person when things go wrong - a skilled, knowledgeable person with the remit to resolve my problem. Humans make bad automatons - they need to be doing human jobs.

Good luck finding a human at a ticket window, or someone you can speak to at your bank, in a few years' time. The happy medium you think is being struck doesn't make enough money for the people concerned so we will not be seeing it happen.

It also occurs to me, good luck the next time we go to war with somewhere that isn't a relatively backward country in the Middle East. We might start to wonder whether removing human control over absolutely everything was all that clever an idea when hackers paralyse the entire country

 

[Starmill]

concern about unemployment

How do you know what anyone's view unemployment and the macroeconomy is given that's nothing to do with this thread? This is a totally ludicrous statement; you certainly have no idea what I think about that, and it doesn't look like you have much idea what anyone else does either.

enthusiasm for automation and computerisation replacing humans in their jobs.

Recently spent 30 pointless minutes going round in circles on an HMRC computerised 'assistance' scheme trying to find out why they had returned my income tax payment. When eventually I got through to a human, it was in the wrong department. I wonder how much that piece of electronic brilliance cost the taxpayer ?

I'm glad you're here, and you're able to contribute so positively to our discussion about an industrial dispute over staffing at Northern with these comments.

No, I meant what appears to me to be jealousy on the part of certain posters, in private sector employment without the benefits of unionisation, towards public sector workers who benefit from being unionised.

I don't see what any public sector workers have to do with the subject of this thread.

One of the greatest ironies of the automation debate is that people involved in IT and related sectors are usually the greatest proponents of automation, and the most confident that their special skills will mean they will be in jobs forever. I find this ironic because, if automation is all about efficiency, people involved in IT should be the first to be replaced, as their products frequently provide lamentably poor service.

This doesn't follow particularly good logic, but even if it did (and I am sure a convincing case could be built) it still would have very, very little to do with the industrial dispute between RMT and Northern! You have an opinion, and you are enjoying shouting about it over everyone else, rather than engaging in nuanced discussion about the subject matter.

 

[Killingworth]

We are digressing too far from DOO, or maybe we're not, but the DLR has been introduced as an example of driver less trains. They're small scale compared with the Riyadh Metro currently under construction. Driver less on a network of six lines traveling 176 kilometres with 85 metro stations. https://www.thenational.ae/business/travel-and-tourism/riyadh-metro-mega-project-to-be-fully-operational-by-2021-1.711522

We're still only half way there after Stephenson's rocket! So much easier to start from scratch with no Victorian, or even Elizabethan, buildings to get in the way.

 

[PR1Berske]

Well yes it really is. It’s only handed to a human once the customer asks a question or phrase the AI bot doesn’t recognise or hasn’t been programmed to answer.

...no, really, that's not how it works.

 

[northwichcat]

Considering you have bemoaned the fact you are unemployed or at least used to be unemployed I find your posts fascinating.

Huh? I was suggesting replacing civil servants with computer processes would make things worse at DfT not better. It was @B&I who suggested DfT should replace employees with technology.

 

[Mag_seven]

Perhaps if we were to all get back to the subject of this thread it would help !
Please use a new thread if you want to discuss other issues.

Quite frankly, until such times as the deadlock between the RMT and Arriva is broken, I don't think there is much left to discuss.

 

[CN75]

For starters, our trains, and Northern's too, run through plenty of areas where the phone signal is non-existent. Yes, there's GSM-R (assuming it's working), but then you're tied to a cab whilst using it. When emergency protection is required, though, there isn't time to talk to Control, and in any case route knowledge is crucial in that case. There's a good few collisions (level crossings, fallen trees, landslips etc.) each year where it's necessary and the possibility of the driver (and/or the GSM-R) being taken out by any of those collisions is very real.?

How often has emergency protection been laid down (beyond an initial pair of track circuit clips) because the GSMR has failed to be the quickest way of calling the signaller?

DOO-P is proven in areas which qualify as rural over the past thirty years. There is nothing significantly different about the Northern network which is crossed by DOO freight trains and empty passenger trains every day. Guards have plenty of use for the future but it is not an operational future, and the sooner the guards start putting customer service before trying to cling on to the glorious past of wrestling with buckeye couplings, the better the survival chances of the grade.