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Arriva Rail North DOO

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northwichcat

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Funny how 'staffless central government departments' never comes up for discussion, despite the benefits they would bring to all our public services, and the amount that would be saved

Careful what you suggest. Remember it was a computer program that came up with new delivery rounds for Royal Mail workers which comprised of two delivery persons sharing a van and ignoring the fact the two people might walk at very different speeds. Imagine if a program like that decided how many units and staff rail franchises needed. ;)
 
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Dave1987

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Careful what you suggest. Remember it was a computer program that came up with new delivery rounds for Royal Mail workers which comprised of two delivery persons sharing a van and ignoring the fact the two people might walk at very different speeds. Imagine if a program like that decided how many units and staff rail franchises needed. ;)

Considering you have bemoaned the fact you are unemployed or at least used to be unemployed I find your posts fascinating.
 

Carlisle

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I think you're missing what I was getting at. I was suggesting a directly operated company with no plans to introduce DOO/DCO until just before the next election - preventing any strikes over DOO/DCO as you can only strike against your current employer. However, as we know from the East Coast franchise the Tories will move a directly operated company back in to private hands
Tougher strike laws would probably be preferable to intentionally playing it that dirty .
 

Bletchleyite

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I bet someone, somewhere has at least argued that a computer would be more efficient than you are, though I suspect you'd cheerfully agree. How are us humans going to earn a living, and how is the capitalist economy going to continue to function, when every single job has been eliminated ?

Fundamentally every single job isn't going to be eliminated. What people will end up doing is what people are good at - dealing with exceptions, customer service etc. There is probably indeed no long-term role for people who are acting as automatons (e.g. drivers) as fundamentally people make very poor automatons. I've said many times before, and I do strongly believe, that DLR style "guard-only operation" is the long-term future of the mainline railway. There will be staff, but those staff will not be for operations, they will be there solely to deal with the needs of the passengers, both normally and in emergencies. Think air stewards/stewardesses.
 

Bletchleyite

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Tougher strike laws would probably be preferable to intentionally playing it that dirty .

The way this has gone, I would strongly favour laws that restrict the use of industrial action to matters which could or do directly affect the current role of the employee or employees who are withdrawing their labour. So in this case, a strike would not be possible if Northern gave a guarantee of employment as a guard for any present member of staff presently holding that role who wished it, with the option of course of "buying out" those who might take a bit extra money, annual leave or whatever to become something else instead, be that OBS, driver or whatever, or to offer genuinely voluntary redundancy/early retirement to anyone who was willing, by choice and without coercion, to take such. Of course, Northern are not presently offering this, but perhaps with this kind of change in the law it might be in their interests to do so. If they did, to me that's the problem over.

The exception to this would be where the Union felt a particular member of current staff had been treated unfairly, e.g. sacked without adequate grounds.

Unions should not in my view be allowed to dictate or seek by way of industrial action to influence future Company policy where it does not affect the current role of members of staff being balloted or proposing to strike, regardless of the grounds for wishing to do so.
 

Dave1987

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The way this has gone, I would strongly favour laws that restrict the use of industrial action to matters which could or do directly affect the current role of the employee or employees who are withdrawing their labour. So in this case, a strike would not be possible if Northern gave a guarantee of employment as a guard for any present member of staff presently holding that role who wished it, with the option of course of "buying out" those who might take a bit extra money, annual leave or whatever to become something else instead, be that OBS, driver or whatever, or to offer genuinely voluntary redundancy/early retirement to anyone who was willing, by choice and without coercion, to take such. Of course, Northern are not presently offering this, but perhaps with this kind of change in the law it might be in their interests to do so. If they did, to me that's the problem over.

The exception to this would be where the Union felt a particular member of current staff had been treated unfairly, e.g. sacked without adequate grounds.

Unions should not in my view be allowed to dictate or seek by way of industrial action to influence future Company policy where it does not affect the current role of members of staff being balloted or proposing to strike, regardless of the grounds for wishing to do so.

You are on extremely dodgy ground there. You would take away all things to stop companies simply implementing changes that significantly worsen pay, terms & conditions. You would get lots of ill feeling and worsening of industrial relations and lots and lots of work to rule. Companies need their staff on side and happy. You seem to forget that. All the most successful companies have happy staff and invest in their staff.
 

B&I

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I would choose the taxpayer over the RMT.
It’s a fight for who runs the railways that the RMT must be seen to lose - which won’t be difficult as the RMT have such a loud red line any compromise is a loss (which is presumably why they won’t compromise)


Is this some kind of joke ? You think that the DfT shares the taxpayers' interest ? Or that it runs the railways of the north of England, in any sense other than running them into the ground ?
 

Meerkat

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The DfTs motivations are more in line with good outcomes for the taxpayer than the RMTs motivations.
 

Bletchleyite

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You are on extremely dodgy ground there. You would take away all things to stop companies simply implementing changes that significantly worsen pay, terms & conditions. You would get lots of ill feeling and worsening of industrial relations and lots and lots of work to rule. Companies need their staff on side and happy. You seem to forget that. All the most successful companies have happy staff and invest in their staff.

My employer has happy staff and invests in their staff. We are not a unionised industry nor workplace - I could join one if I wanted, but I don't feel the need.

That is where it should be.

But in any case, my proposal wouldn't mean the T&C/pay of existing staff could be worsened, as they could strike for that if they wished. T&C/pay of new staff could differ, but in the end when you are offered a job you can take it or not take it depending if you accept what is on offer - if they couldn't fill the roles, then they'd have to up the offer.
 

B&I

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You seem to be suggesting machines will invent machines and program the software to run on the machines and if there's a problem a machine will fix it. I think the likelihood of that happening in our lifetime is as likely as Corbyn unveiling a proposal for a new British Rail tomorrow which consists of a network operated by automated trains only.


Why can't artifically intelligent computers write more software, and robots fix things ? After all, we are being told that they can do everything else better than humans, despite the fact that with every passing year it becomes clearer that this is not the case
 
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Bletchleyite

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Why can't artifically intelligent computers weite more software, and robots fix things ? After all, we are being told that they can do everything else better than humans, despite the fact that with every passing year it becomes clearer that this is not the case

Because they don't know what their human "overlords" want!

What they can do is assist with software development, which as time goes on gets progressively easier. What they won't do any time soon is understand the human foibles of what the target business requires - human facing work - which is the kind of work people do well.

Ticketing is not dissimilar. I don't need a human to sell me a Merseyrail Daysaver (as I bought one today). I know what I want, I know its price, I know it is the best value ticket for my journey, so I asked for it and got it. If however I had no idea what I wanted, that's when a person comes in. A bank of TVMs and a couple of windows for consultancy - not some windows with massive queues and no TVMs.

My bank? I don't want to talk to a person to do a transfer - I know the target account, I know the amount. But I do want quality service from a person when things go wrong - a skilled, knowledgeable person with the remit to resolve my problem. Humans make bad automatons - they need to be doing human jobs.
 

Dave1987

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My employer has happy staff and invests in their staff. We are not a unionised industry nor workplace - I could join one if I wanted, but I don't feel the need.

That is where it should be.

I truly wish there was no need to be part of a union. In the railways it’s brave person who isn’t. There is a reason for that.
 

Meerkat

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After all, we are being told that they can do everything else better than humans, despite the fact that with every passing year it becomes clearer that this is not the case

For example?
 

B&I

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Careful what you suggest. Remember it was a computer program that came up with new delivery rounds for Royal Mail workers which comprised of two delivery persons sharing a van and ignoring the fact the two people might walk at very different speeds. Imagine if a program like that decided how many units and staff rail franchises needed. ;)


Haven't we already established that much of Northern's dreadful staff rostering, and its consequent effects on service reliability, was an attempt by a computer to roster staff most 'efficiently' ?
 
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Bletchleyite

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I truly wish there was no need to be part of a union. In the railways it’s brave person who isn’t. There is a reason for that.

That there probably is, but why not stick to the unions defending the present staff in their roles instead of theoretical future ones?

Why would a guarantee that all present guards could have a guard role for as long as they wished not be enough?
 

Dave1987

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That there probably is, but why not stick to the unions defending the present staff in their roles instead of theoretical future ones?

Why would a guarantee that all present guards could have a guard role for as long as they wished not be enough?

Because no one has any faith in any guarantees the DFT gives out. Unless it’s legally binding the Government seemingly cannot be trusted.
 

B&I

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Fundamentally every single job isn't going to be eliminated. What people will end up doing is what people are good at - dealing with exceptions, customer service etc. There is probably indeed no long-term role for people who are acting as automatons (e.g. drivers) as fundamentally people make very poor automatons. I've said many times before, and I do strongly believe, that DLR style "guard-only operation" is the long-term future of the mainline railway. There will be staff, but those staff will not be for operations, they will be there solely to deal with the needs of the passengers, both normally and in emergencies. Think air stewards/stewardesses.


You are aware of quite how many customer service roles have been wiped out in recent years and replaced with feeble computerised pseudo-replacements ?
 

Bletchleyite

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You are aware of quite how many customer service roles have been wiped out in recent years and replaced with feeble computerised pseudo-replacements ?

Personally, I find customer service much better and easier than it was in the days of mass call centres. Do you remember, for instance, just how bad National Rail Enquiries by telephone was?

Twitter, for instance, has changed everything.
 

Dave1987

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Personally, I find customer service much better and easier than it was in the days of mass call centres. Do you remember, for instance, just how bad National Rail Enquiries by telephone was?

Twitter, for instance, has changed everything.

Except it’s mostly done by bots......
 

Dave1987

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Which is no great issue, surely? Let machines follow scripts, let people deal with complex stuff that people are good at.

Well your great utopia of humans doing customer service work doesn’t stand up really does it. As the AI bots learn the answers to more and more questions that customers ask less and less humans are required. I’m sure even your job will be under threat from automation.
 

Carlisle

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Unions should not in my view be allowed to dictate or seek by way of industrial action to influence future Company policy where it does not affect the current role of members of staff being balloted or proposing to strike, regardless of the grounds for wishing to do so.
I tend to agree, its bizarre those demanding retention of employment conditions devised in the era of Leon Trotsky, are nearly always more than willing to take full advantage of a modern competitive capitalist society
 
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