Arriva Rail North DOO

[Robertj21a]

I know that despite what some people say, onboard well trained staff are needed. How do I know? Because in my experience as soon as the smallest thing goes wrong, people come looking for you.

It is that simple.

Agreed.

But that role is admirably resolved by the OBS role that Southern introduced (seemingly very successfully) - No responsibility for door opening/closing and *in extreme circumstances* the train may still operate with just the driver. In my view, this is where the RMT should be looking if they want to resolve this dispute. Unfortunately, they've already shot themselves in both feet by refusing to recognise OBS staff.

 

[Meerkat]

Do OBS need route knowledge?
A need for route knowledge gives the Union industrial power as the Labour Force is less flexible

 

[Intermodal]

Do OBS need route knowledge?
A need for route knowledge gives the Union industrial power as the Labour Force is less flexible

Depends what "OBS" means.

If they do something related to the route, then they need route knowledge.

 

[Tomnick]

Not really.you listen to vox pops of passengers supporting the second staff member and what they want is somone to answer questions and act as policeman/bouncer, not someone who has to concentrate on despatch or someone hidden in the back cab or office (SWR experience - the few hiding are more memorable than the ones quietly getting on with revenue work)
They don’t need much safety training, the main advantage is having someone with an official link to control who can speak to the passengers

I really don’t understand why someone can’t do all that *and* concentrate on dispatch too. The implementation of OBSs on Southern has shown that, in practice, that second member of staff has to go to a set of doors to observe the platform anyway, to see whether anyone needs help boarding. Why not have them dispatch the train whilst they’re there (which is safer), rather than introduce the risk of confusion (or just having them left behind) as they assist a wheelchair user whilst the driver - unaware - tries to dispatch the train?

Passengers being voxpopped don’t generally understand the safety benefits of someone with more than “[not] much safety training”, not just when things go catastrophically wrong either.

Finally, those who routinely never venture from the back cab aren’t doing their jobs properly. They’re a disgrace to the grade, personally. Why do you think they’ll act any differently when they get a new name badge?

Do OBS need route knowledge?
A need for route knowledge gives the Union industrial power as the Labour Force is less flexible

Route knowledge also gives them the ability to carry out emergency protection if it’s necessary, to know where not to put wheelchair users (e.g. where part of the train won’t be accommodated at their destination station), to be able to liaise with Control more effectively, etc.. It’s hardly a great demand either - I think most of the guards at our place can go pretty much anywhere that the depot covers, and that’s a big route card.

 

[Tomnick]

How often do coupled units separate on Northern?

It’s not just that. What happens if someone pulls the passcom on the rear unit and there’s no-one there to reset it? More confusion and delay, especially if it happens to be somewhere with running lines on both sides. Personally I think that it’s a daft idea to have units that regularly work in multiple that don’t have gangway connections, but there we go.

 

[yorkie]

What exactly is the definition of “safety critical”? Can an OBS be safety critical?..

Yes, the OBMs are on Southeastern's HS1 services

...But by having a guard in the rear unit, you have safety critical staff who know their roles should those units split No guard at all means nobody at all in the rear unit should that happen...

TPE can and do run the rear set in service with no staff and no gangway.

...lthe revenue protection role of the guard has disappeared off the radar...

I rarely see Guards doing revenue services on evening trains on Northern and TPE, but that's been the case for a long time now.

 

[Meerkat]

I really don’t understand why someone can’t do all that *and* concentrate on dispatch too. The implementation of OBSs on Southern has shown that, in practice, that second member of staff has to go to a set of doors to observe the platform anyway, to see whether anyone needs help boarding. Why not have them dispatch the train whilst they’re there (which is safer), rather than introduce the risk of confusion (or just having them left behind) as they assist a wheelchair user whilst the driver - unaware - tries to dispatch the train?

On SWR the guards open the doors and it takes bloody ages. And the reports said guard despatch was slower and less safe too didn’t they? A driver self dispatching with the OBS on the platform would be incompetent

Passengers being voxpopped don’t generally understand the safety benefits of someone with more than “[not] much safety training”, not just when things go catastrophically wrong either.

How often do things go catastrophically wrong demanding some knowledge that control can’t instruct over the phone? I am not arguing for dragging contract staff off the street with no training at all....

 

[Bletchleyite]

There has been a few. One in particular right on Leeds west junction a year or so ago. But I have heard of a few others also.

I'd suggest it might not be a bad idea to resolve the actual problem then!

 

[Bletchleyite]

On SWR the guards open the doors and it takes bloody ages. And the reports said guard despatch was slower and less safe too didn’t they? A driver self dispatching with the OBS on the platform would be incompetent

Driver release does remove the delay on stopping and has very few downsides.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes, the OBMs are on Southeastern's HS1 services

TPE can and do run the rear set in service with no staff and no gangway.

I rarely see Guards doing revenue services on evening trains on Northern and TPE, but that's been the case for a long time now.

As far as I'm aware, the term OBS only exists on Southern. So the answer is No.

 

[6Gman]

I know that despite what some people say, onboard well trained staff are needed. How do I know? Because in my experience as soon as the smallest thing goes wrong, people come looking for you.

It is that simple.

This. It can be a hundred different things; from tragic and desperately serious to trivial and even comical.

But I want a Guard there to deal with it; not somebody banging on the driver's door!

 

[B&I]

Next General Election is scheduled for 2022. A cynic might think if Arriva hand the keys back it'll become a public franchise with no plans to introduce DOO/DCO, with a new private franchise starting in 2021 having a requirement to introduce DOO/DCO on all routes.

That would rather suggest that an awful lot of new trains would need to be procured in less than 5 years

 

[B&I]

I am not sure why some think the DfT should roll over, and not the RMT.
Surely it’s more likely that DfT go all in and convert the franchise to a management contract with an immediate start of talks with ASLEF?

I think most people would prefer some form of compromise. But really, are you saying that out of the two sides, you'd choose the DfT over the people who actuallu work on the railways ? Did you go to the cinema as a child and cheer on Darth Vader ?

 

[Robertj21a]

I really don’t understand why someone can’t do all that *and* concentrate on dispatch too. The implementation of OBSs on Southern has shown that, in practice, that second member of staff has to go to a set of doors to observe the platform anyway, to see whether anyone needs help boarding. Why not have them dispatch the train whilst they’re there (which is safer), rather than introduce the risk of confusion (or just having them left behind) as they assist a wheelchair user whilst the driver - unaware - tries to dispatch the train?

Passengers being voxpopped don’t generally understand the safety benefits of someone with more than “[not] much safety training”, not just when things go catastrophically wrong either.

Finally, those who routinely never venture from the back cab aren’t doing their jobs properly. They’re a disgrace to the grade, personally. Why do you think they’ll act any differently when they get a new name badge?

Route knowledge also gives them the ability to carry out emergency protection if it’s necessary, to know where not to put wheelchair users (e.g. where part of the train won’t be accommodated at their destination station), to be able to liaise with Control more effectively, etc.. It’s hardly a great demand either - I think most of the guards at our place can go pretty much anywhere that the depot covers, and that’s a big route card.

The reason why it's not desirable to have the OBS *also* do the dispatch is quite simply that the flexibility of the Southern OBS includes the ability for the train to operate as just DOO **in exceptional circumstances**. There's no way that the RMT will ever agree to that - but as they don't even recognise the OBS role it's no longer an issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would rather suggest that an awful lot of new trains would need to be procured in less than 5 years

A fleet replacement would be a massive publicity coup, if what they are aiming to do is to break the RMT (something which given their outrageous conduct I could be persuaded to support) it might be considered a good use of money.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think most people would prefer some form of compromise. But really, are you saying that out of the two sides, you'd choose the DfT over the people who actuallu work on the railways ? Did you go to the cinema as a child and cheer on Darth Vader ?

I would choose whoever guaranteed to operate the railways safely and cost effectively. At present that's not at all clear.

 

[Carlisle]

But put yourself in this position, you are looking to change jobs, you see a vacancy for a northern conductor, but know the role might end in a year or so, would you apply? .

If industrial relations had been great , the best option would’ve been to inform all guard applicats since acceptance of the Mc Nulty report that the grade was emerging into a customer service based one, and not to sign up to it if they weren’t willing to accept that .

 

[74A]

I really don’t understand why someone can’t do all that *and* concentrate on dispatch too. The implementation of OBSs on Southern has shown that, in practice, that second member of staff has to go to a set of doors to observe the platform anyway, to see whether anyone needs help boarding. Why not have them dispatch the train whilst they’re there (which is safer), rather than introduce the risk of confusion (or just having them left behind) as they assist a wheelchair user whilst the driver - unaware - tries to dispatch the train?

The reason for the driver to despatch the train is that is is much quicker. Between 10 and 20 seconds. Its the dead time taken for the guard to close his door give 2 get 2 back and the train to move. With driver door operation you don't get that delay. When you can have a train with more than 20 stops in a journey that can be a significant amount of time. I should imagine its the reason RMT have accepted that the driver will operate the doors on Merseyrail.

You won't get confusion AIUI. The OBS puts a key in the panel which will prevent their door closing so the driver will not get interlock.

 

[Starmill]

That's really helpful, thank you. However MIA is a TPE station and HFD is a TFW one, so if taken literally "if their origin station or destination station is on the Northern network" does not apply. I suppose I will just have to put in a claim on the Northern website and see what happens.

Honestly I would just ignore the information on their site, trainophile. Follow this simple principle:
- If you bought a ticket but the train is cancelled (for any reason, it doesn't matter how or why the train was cancelled) and you didn't use the ticket, you're eligible for a full refund (that is, with no admin fees).
- If you're eligible for a refund, this will be paid by whomever sold the ticket, and the retailer is your point of contact. If you have orange tickets which you physically have with you, they may ask you to post the tickets to them before they'll issue your refund. The refund ought to be to the payment card you used.

The fact there's a strike on doesn't change this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If industrial relations had been great , the best option would’ve been to inform all guard applicats since acceptance of the Mc Nulty report that the grade was emerging into a customer service based one, and not to sign up to it if they weren’t willing to accept that .

There's no need for that, as Northern DOO would be phased in to the extent that no current guard bothered about this is going to have to stop being a guard.

 

[Carlisle]

There's no need for that, as Northern DOO would be phased in to the extent that no current guard bothered about this is going to have to stop being a guard.

I completely agree, It just might have allowed negotiating to have taken place gradually, as after govt accepted the Mc Nulty report we had several years of the industry in one room planning for DCO and the unions in another planning their opposition strategy, with no meaningful dialogue between the two until the inevitable strikes at the various TOCs trying to actually introduce it.

 

[Meerkat]

I think most people would prefer some form of compromise. But really, are you saying that out of the two sides, you'd choose the DfT over the people who actuallu work on the railways ? Did you go to the cinema as a child and cheer on Darth Vader ?

I would choose the taxpayer over the RMT.
It’s a fight for who runs the railways that the RMT must be seen to lose - which won’t be difficult as the RMT have such a loud red line any compromise is a loss (which is presumably why they won’t compromise)

 

[B&I]

Point 1) Yes indeed it would be like running two coupled units you can't walk through. But by having a guard in the rear unit, you have safety critical staff who know their roles should those units split No guard at all means nobody at all in the rear unit should that happen.

Point 2) A good point, and I see you have the handle 'Halifaxlad' I assume you know ticket barriers were planned for Halifax, but the bridge wasn't strong enough to support them, so they were installed at Skipton instead. But more to the point you make about losing revenue. Believe it or not, this thought really does not seem to have registered with Arriva or the DFT. I personally have highlighted major issues internally about people buying mobile tickets using railcard discounts they are not in possession of. All you get is denial that it is a problem. Yes it may seem strange, but you can't help get the feeling that so intent on forcing through change, the revenue protection role of the guard has disappeared off the radar. Perhaps this is partly why Arriva are asking for more money.

Plus, anyone who thinks that Northern are worried about revenue protection might want to.ask why gates are left gaping open at many of the stations which have them for so much of the day

 

[B&I]

I am in the process of being made redundant. It’s just the way of the world.
Keeping roles just for the sake of keeping people employed is hopelessly inefficient, particularly if those roles are relatively expensive and funded by taxpayers (most of whom don’t even use trains)
I really hope Merseyrail whack up their fares to cover the cost of the RMT belligerence

Although I am self-employed, the area I work in is under constant threat because a certain part of the financial services 'industry', with considerable influence among the Tory Party, would like to prevent me and people like me from doing my job, not because od some form of technological or social change, but because it will enable them to increase their already obscene profits (the market in question only exists because legislation makes it a criminal offence for many people not to buy the relevant product). I'm not really prepared to shrug my shoulders about that and say 'oh well, I'm sure out stuttering economy will find me something else to do'.

This is why I feel aggrieved on behalf of anyone whose job is under threat. But since you're not prepared, it seems, to even get worried about your own economic wellbeing, I suppose that explains why you're so casual about other people's.

 

[LowLevel]

There's no need for that, as Northern DOO would be phased in to the extent that no current guard bothered about this is going to have to stop being a guard.

Tony Miles on WNXX reckons he has it on good authority that one of the redacted paragraphs in the franchise agreement is Arriva committing to 100% DCO by a date in the current franchise and that this is one of the major issues they're negotiating with the DfT. Don't forget the nasty little RSSB report that they tried to suppress suggested trials of cheap options like fold in mirrors to allow cost effective conversion of 'legacy' stock.

 

[B&I]

All the inefficiencies need tackling.
The DfT situation is farcical, and why I can’t understand why anyone would think nationalisation is the answer.
The drivers is another case of industrial blackmail (from an outside view it is the drivers who should be at risk, as computers can do that job but not the OBS job.......)
But the guards is the current dispute and if the RMT win then the inefficiency is locked in for years

Ps I would actually have an OBS on all mainline trains (inc current DOO ones), particularly in 3rd Rail areas. But they wouldn’t be guards, just revenue with a phone and basic training.

'Computers can do that job' instead of a driver. So, are they going to be starting Blackpool South-Colne services next week ?

I bet someone, somewhere has at least argued that a computer would be more efficient than you are, though I suspect you'd cheerfully agree. How are us humans going to earn a living, and how is the capitalist economy going to continue to function, when every single job has been eliminated ?

 

[B&I]

One thing I think you fail to appreciate is there is a growing conception of destaffing on the railways. Staffless stations and staffless trains seem to be the DFT’s vision of the future. I know of station staff who believe they are next for the chop once the DFT have finished attacking the guards. I would not say the railways are a good career choice for anyone unless you are a driver or signaller and that is a very sad state of affairs!

Funny how 'staffless central government departments' never comes up for discussion, despite the benefits they would bring to all our public services, and the amount that would be saved

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tony Miles on WNXX reckons he has it on good authority that one of the redacted paragraphs in the franchise agreement is Arriva committing to 100% DCO by a date in the current franchise and that this is one of the major issues they're negotiating with the DfT. Don't forget the nasty little RSSB report that they tried to suppress suggested trials of cheap options like fold in mirrors to allow cost effective conversion of 'legacy' stock.

They might be doing trials, but I just can't see it happening. Just about the only DCO I could see as viable with Class 150s would be "get out and look"[1], and even that isn't workable with other 15x due to a lack of a separate cab door.

[1] This is still used in places e.g. I *think* at Windsor and Eton Central, I also saw it somewhere else recently but I forget where.

 

[northwichcat]

That would rather suggest that an awful lot of new trains would need to be procured in less than 5 years

I think you're missing what I was getting at. I was suggesting a directly operated company with no plans to introduce DOO/DCO until just before the next election - preventing any strikes over DOO/DCO as you can only strike against your current employer. However, as we know from the East Coast franchise the Tories will move a directly operated company back in to private hands before any General Elections. I also doubt even Corbyn led Labour would completely remove a requirement to introduce DOO/DCO if they were to win the next election as we know from past experience when Labour say they'll stop something while in opposition they only go part way when they get in government and have the chance to stop it.

 

[northwichcat]

I bet someone, somewhere has at least argued that a computer would be more efficient than you are, though I suspect you'd cheerfully agree. How are us humans going to earn a living, and how is the capitalist economy going to continue to function, when every single job has been eliminated ?

You seem to be suggesting machines will invent machines and program the software to run on the machines and if there's a problem a machine will fix it. I think the likelihood of that happening in our lifetime is as likely as Corbyn unveiling a proposal for a new British Rail tomorrow which consists of a network operated by automated trains only.