Arriva Rail North DOO

[Tomnick]

Do you honestly think that would happen?? Get real, Rail North/DFT are specifying exactly what they want from this franchise, but have made some allowance for normal day to day disruption.

Now I can safely tell you that we as guards in our messroom are well aware that the 12 routes to be branded as Northern Connect services will see the current guard in a far more customer facing role. We wont be doing doors, which some are actually quite happy about.

Yes, I think that it probably would happen. Northern are in a deep hole regarding staffing levels. They rely heavily on overtime, no doubt often at inflated rates or with jobs being split up, to cover the work every day. How can you justify dangling a big carrot to get someone to come in on their rest day, or filling vacancies that you can get away with not filling, if you've got a business to run?

Rail North/DfT have specified exactly what they want from this franchise, and that doesn't include any measure of certainty of a second member of staff on DOO services.

Turn up and go will still apply when these Northern Connect services start, because they are serving stations with station staff, who are actually responsible for loading and unloading of wheelchairs. To give you an example, station staff at Bolton will load a wheelchair, and then phone through to Piccadilly ( as an example ) and inform staff that a wheelchair is on its way. That is how it has always worked. I would say that of the small number I load in any given month myslef, the overwhelming majority have been from stations where there are no staff.

If every "Northern Connect" services calls only at stations that are staffed for the whole of the operating day, I'll eat my hat.

 

[driver_m]

Ah, the true voice speaks up at last !!

I always thought there was free speech - but seemingly not if you say anything against the RMT.

Pitiful. You really do know how to evidence the scale of the overall problem.

Ah, the belittling approach, because of some forthright views. Wingsoveryorks is a breath of fresh air in here and it's got very tasty in here because of them! About time someone come in and said it 'how it is' .Keep it up pal.

 

[driver_m]

So many are dubious of them working for as a guard for Northern, i'm one of them. I'm inclined to believe that a relative does, and that is where the flow of information is coming from.

Probably. Remember the crap grannyjones got, suspecting they weren't a driver. I didn't believe that over her, but with moonshot I'm convinced they're not a guard. Such views in the newsroom would ensure that even other rail staff would know them. I know some of the scabs who work for other TOCs for instance. (And stop crying, anyone who gets triggered by that word, they are scabs)

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Ah, the belittling approach, because of some forthright views. Wingsoveryorks is a breath of fresh air in here and it's got very tasty in here because of them! About time someone come in and said it 'how it is' .Keep it up pal.

They don't like it how it is. It upsets them and rocks the little world that they like to live in. You can tell the people on here who have years of railway experience, and those who just like trains.They have their views and get all upset and emotional if anyone challenges them with truth and fact.

It really hurts them to know that it was a Northern RMT branch who suggested hitting six Saturdays in a row. Must come as a real shock to blast them out of the delusion that we are all falling out with Mick Cash. Just a shame it wasn't our original plan to hit the six over the school holidays, but September will do. We gave the management a chance to talk seriously, instead they played games, now it is our turn to play our game.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many Deutsche Bahn services other than IC and ICE operate under DOO conditions?

Quite a lot of local services. Like Switzerland, DB has at least two staff on long distance services, ICE included, but there are quite a lot of DOO regional DMU and EMU services, and even some LHCS. Quite often they rely on the interlock, too.

Also near enough all the U- and S-Bahnen which have been DOO for years, though they used to have platform dispatchers.

 

[Bromley boy]

It really hurts them to know that it was a Northern RMT branch who suggested hitting six Saturdays in a row. Must come as a real shock to blast them out of the delusion that we are all falling out with Mick Cash. Just a shame it wasn't our original plan to hit the six over the school holidays, but September will do. We gave the management a chance to talk seriously, instead they played games, now it is our turn to play our game.

Looking at the way northern have messed the RMT around, it should be clear to even the most anti-union posters where the fault for this latest round of strikes lies!

There’s no excuse for approaching negotiations in bad faith.

 

[Carlisle]

And the outcome of the strike action was?

I believe they all got a payment, but unsure of the actual sum .

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Looking at the way northern have messed the RMT around, it should be clear to even the most anti-union posters where the fault for this latest round of strikes lies!

There’s no excuse for approaching negotiations in bad faith.

It's all it is on here, anti-union. It makes me laugh, they go to work with their zero hour contracts and minimum wages, yet feel unions who fight for terms and conditions that offer a standard of living and a living wage are bad. Thatchers children born and bred.
The Northern management kept the RMT team waiting, didn't show up on some occasions, on others cancelled. Then they go around bleating when people say enough. What it was, and this is the truth, they thought they could buy time because they got wind that we were going to hit the school holidays. It was all a sham, so don't come crying now.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

I'll cop for three of these Saturdays. I hope we hit all three because I have plans now for at least two of them.
Now this is the feelings of Northern Rail RMT members. Not some fantasy about how upset we all are with Mick Cash.

 

[PR1Berske]

Just a shame it wasn't our original plan to hit the six over the school holidays,

Why do you think hitting low paid families with children would have been a constructive way to make the argument against DOO? If you don't mind me saying, your tone is that of a militant who enjoys having *any* fight rather than working for a company!

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Why do you think hitting low paid families with children would have been a constructive way to make the argument against DOO? If you don't mind me saying, your tone is that of a militant who enjoys having *any* fight rather than working for a company!

Oh, we are now playing the 'low paid family card' now. Why not go lower and say "Why are you hitting the elderly, the disabled, and those who need assistance" could it be that it is those who we are fighting for. Truth is though, like yourself, most don't really care about the disadvantaged groups. "I'm alright Jack attitude rules, until you become Jack"

I said it yesterday on here, and will say it again before I log off for the last time. This forum is full to the rafters with very selfish people.

 

[Robertj21a]

. At least we're now getting down to those grass roots staff who are only interested in making life difficult for others - and to think some people thought these disputes were all about safety !

 

[Carlisle]

Why are you hitting the elderly, the disabled, and those who need assistance" .

Do you seriously reckon virtually anyone now believes the RMT primarily care about the elderly and disabled, rather than preserving their bargaining power ?

 

[PR1Berske]

Oh, we are now playing the 'low paid family card' now. Why not go lower and say "Why are you hitting the elderly, the disabled, and those who need assistance" could it be that it is those who we are fighting for. Truth is though, like yourself, most don't really care about the disadvantaged groups. "I'm alright Jack attitude rules, until you become Jack"

I said it yesterday on here, and will say it again before I log off for the last time. This forum is full to the rafters with very selfish people.

Well whether you read this or not, I'll make my opinion quite clear.

I've said on this forum before that I'm not anti Union. I'm somewhat doubtful about their practices and attitudes (it still comes across as being rather analogue in this digital age).

DOO is coming, we all know this. Northern has guaranteed the guard role for the duration of its franchise, we know this.

DOO already exists in other networks, we know this. Agreements and pay deals have been made with other unions to make it so.

Strikes should not, in my opinion and I know this is shared by many others, turn into a running battle with ordinary workers stuck in the middle. Drivers and guards are handsomely paid. When well paid workers are putting the travel/work/employment opportunities of lower paid people in jeopardy, then something has gone terribly wrong.

Gloating and showing off about staying off work on strike while low paid families struggle on RR buses is not showing your argument in a good light, nor does it make the RMT come across as caring or understanding.

I earn a Band 2 wage in an NHS office. It's a tiny, tiny wage when put next to a driver or guard. When my manager orders me to do a job, I do it. I know my place. I know my role and I do it. I am not here to bash striking workers ..... though I do wonder why we're supposed to hold union members up as gods upon pedestals while we scrape around due to your actions

 

[scrapy]

Considering its my brother in law who informed me of that ( who is a DTM ), I rather think not.

I'd check the company's policies. Did your brother in law provide that information in confidence or tell you to post it on a public forum? I do know people have been sacked or disciplined by Northern and other TOCs for revealing information supposed to be confidential on Facebook etc.

It wouldn't be too difficult for Northern to suss out who you are especially as you claim to be a guard related to a DTM (narrows it down a bit). I'm not doubting the information is true as I've heard the same off other employees

 

[Moonshot]

I'd check the company's policies. Did your brother in law provide that information in confidence or tell you to post it on a public forum? I do know people have been sacked or disciplined by Northern and other TOCs for revealing information supposed to be confidential on Facebook etc.

It wouldn't be too difficult for Northern to suss out who you are especially as you claim to be a guard related to a DTM (narrows it down a bit). I'm not doubting the information is true as I've heard the same off other employees

Nothing confidential about it, everyone in the messroom knows what everyone gets paid, it's certainly well advertised both on Northern employment websites and Union ones. It even gets in the papers, particularly the Daily Mail who seem to have a go at the industry pay rates on a regular basis. I myself ( and other staff on here) have mentioned the fact we got a couple of cheques out of the RMT hardship funds. Don't see what the big deal is if I'm honest.

 

[woodmally]

Listen pal. I'm a Northern guard, and trust me, this strike is supported more now than it ever has been. But keep up the fantasy.

Right if you are right then why not call a second ballot? This would strengthen your bargaining power. Secondly is it still about passenger safety or are we finally going to get the honesty from the RMT its about job losses in future. I just wished RMT was honest about that. Thirdly do you think you will win? If the answer is yes then please carry on striking more often I want it over as quickly as possible its gone on for long enough. If you are not going to win, which I suspect is the case then why not stop and give up. Why flog a dead horse and lose money?

 

[virgintrain1]

Well whether you read this or not, I'll make my opinion quite clear.

I've said on this forum before that I'm not anti Union. I'm somewhat doubtful about their practices and attitudes (it still comes across as being rather analogue in this digital age).

DOO is coming, we all know this. Northern has guaranteed the guard role for the duration of its franchise, we know this.

DOO already exists in other networks, we know this. Agreements and pay deals have been made with other unions to make it so.

Strikes should not, in my opinion and I know this is shared by many others, turn into a running battle with ordinary workers stuck in the middle. Drivers and guards are handsomely paid. When well paid workers are putting the travel/work/employment opportunities of lower paid people in jeopardy, then something has gone terribly wrong.

Gloating and showing off about staying off work on strike while low paid families struggle on RR buses is not showing your argument in a good light, nor does it make the RMT come across as caring or understanding.

I earn a Band 2 wage in an NHS office. It's a tiny, tiny wage when put next to a driver or guard. When my manager orders me to do a job, I do it. I know my place. I know my role and I do it. I am not here to bash striking workers ..... though I do wonder why we're supposed to hold union members up as gods upon pedestals while we scrape around due to your actions

So only people on low wages can strike then?

It is about safety! No one can say a DOO train is safer. Period

 

[PR1Berske]

So only people on low wages can strike then?

IT IS ABOUT SAFETY END OF!

The RMT press releases rarely mention safety! Tories, prices, Germany, privatisation, it all gets mentioned before safety. Even on this thread!

But I thought I had tried to be fair in my assessment and post. Obviously not!

 

[Andyh82]

Very varied service pattern on Saturday

Leeds to Skipton - every 30 minutes

Leeds to Bradford - every 2 hours

Leeds to Halifax - no service

 

[Smidster]

They don't like it how it is. It upsets them and rocks the little world that they like to live in. You can tell the people on here who have years of railway experience, and those who just like trains.They have their views and get all upset and emotional if anyone challenges them with truth and fact.

It really hurts them to know that it was a Northern RMT branch who suggested hitting six Saturdays in a row. Must come as a real shock to blast them out of the delusion that we are all falling out with Mick Cash. Just a shame it wasn't our original plan to hit the six over the school holidays, but September will do. We gave the management a chance to talk seriously, instead they played games, now it is our turn to play our game.

Sorry but you come across really badly and seem to vindicate every reason as to why I do not support your action.

Whenever you start talking about "hitting the management" and express joy about ruining people plans it shows to people like me that this is not an action of last resort taken with deep care but rather an opportunity to hurt as many people as you can.

At this point it seems as if you have lost control of your action - I am not sure what you are expecting Northen to do at this point - whenever they do offer something it gets pushed back with stupid statements about how "the Germans are evil"

Of course there should be a second ballot - it has been getting on for 2 years now in some shape or form. It seems crazy that you can continue in perpetuity but that is a legislative issue.

Enough is enough - it is time to stop this but we all know that your side will never agree unless you get everything that you want plus more.

 

[Moonshot]

Very varied service pattern on Saturday

Leeds to Skipton - every 30 minutes

Leeds to Bradford - every 2 hours

Leeds to Halifax - no service

In my neck of the woods, a lot of services wouldn't have run anyway because of engineering blockades. I assume Leeds to Halifax has a regular bus service?

 

[PR1Berske]

So only people on low wages can strike then?

It is about safety! No one can say a DOO train is safer. Period

I'll say this. Union members complain about managers making their working life difficult if not impossible. Lowly office staff complain about union members making getting into work impossible. The circle turns, life goes on.

 

[virgintrain1]

The RMT press releases rarely mention safety! Tories, prices, Germany, privatisation, it all gets mentioned before safety. Even on this thread!

But I thought I had tried to be fair in my assessment and post. Obviously not!

Apollogies for being a bit rude, I'm just get very worked up over the issue. Probably should stop reading the forum.

 

[Wychwood93]

So only people on low wages can strike then?

IT IS ABOUT SAFETY END OF!

PR1Berske did not say that *only people on low wages can strike then?*

It is not all about safety, whether you are on the train or not - having a guard/second person/third person does not prevent a random stabbing or shooting - CCTV would, hopefully, if working, show what happened. This is very much like the platform stuff of CCTV for your safety and security - if a nutter pushes you off of the platform into the path of a train the CCTV will only show who did it. It will not prevent it. As I have stated before, I have no problem with a second person. Down here, near Christchurch, we will most likely always have a guard, whether you see them or not. Some are very good, attentive, come through the train, even on a stopper. Others not quite he same. People are people - that's life.

 

[virgintrain1]

I'll say this. Union members complain about managers making their working life difficult if not impossible. Lowly office staff complain about union members making getting into work impossible. The circle turns, life goes on.

Just hope your union reps make sure your managers don't discipline anyone who is late unable to get to work when it's not their fault . (DfTs fault)

 

[virgintrain1]

PR1Berske did not say that *only people on low wages can strike then?*

It is not all about safety, whether you are on the train or not - having a guard/second person/third person does not prevent a random stabbing or shooting - CCTV would, hopefully, if working, show what happened. This is very much like the platform stuff of CCTV for your safety and security - if a nutter pushes you off of the platform into the path of a train the CCTV will only show who did it. It will not prevent it. As I have stated before, I have no problem with a second person. Down here, near Christchurch, we will most likely always have a guard, whether you see them or not. Some are very good, attentive, come through the train, even on a stopper. Others not quite he same. People are people - that's life.

Can you asnwer the questions I raise over DOO services then? (Page 140)

Stabbings on board are not really an everyday occurrence.

 

[driver_m]

"I'm not anti -union but...".

Up there with "I don't mean to cause offence, but... ' .Or '' interesting'.

All phrases that mean the opposite of what's being said.

I love how I am in the position of not rating the RMT all that much from a position of actually being in the union rather than assuming it's full of Jurassic period collectiins. (I still fully support their aims though). We won't change your views one bit, you certainly won't change mine, but it's nice to be on the front foot for once in here. And you pro-dooers hate this. Yes it will cause damage to us long term, but doing nothing will do far more to the railway. We are the last mass group of union workers with real clout in this country and you'd do well to listen to some of us with the stuff that's going to be thrown at this country over the next few years.. We are already on the way to the Victorian 'paradise' that the Tories want. Unfortunately the Georgian/Victorian era was not good for the majority of our elders. Don't make the mistakes they did.. again.

 

[northernchris]

Leaving aside the politics , what do you think a sensible compromise will be?

Ideally driver open, guard close. As Northern have guaranteed jobs and salary until 2025 it would make sense just to leave things be through a renegotiated franchise to compensate for Network Rail's failings.

 

[Overspeed110]

Northern are not guaranteeing a second safety critical person on every train. This is a red line for the RMT and will not be rolled back on. However, it is possible that an agreement will be reached on who does what regarding door operation. Northern seem to have realised that they now have to take part in constructive conversations with the RMT. Having taken the Mickey over the last few weeks, ( i believe ) this has led to a change in Northerns management dealing with this. Hopefully this dispute will soon reach an acceptable conclusion, for both sides.

"I'm not anti -union but...".

Up there with "I don't mean to cause offence, but... ' .Or '' interesting'.

All phrases that mean the opposite of what's being said.

I love how I am in the position of not rating the RMT all that much from a position of actually being in the union rather than assuming it's full of Jurassic period collectiins. (I still fully support their aims though). We won't change your views one bit, you certainly won't change mine, but it's nice to be on the front foot for once in here. And you pro-dooers hate this. Yes it will cause damage to us long term, but doing nothing will do far more to the railway. We are the last mass group of union workers with real clout in this country and you'd do well to listen to some of us with the stuff that's going to be thrown at this country over the next few years.. We are already on the way to the Victorian 'paradise' that the Tories want. Unfortunately the Georgian/Victorian era was not good for the majority of our elders. Don't make the mistakes they did.. again.

Agreed, it seems to me there's a few people on here very jealous of the t&c people who are still in some of the last big unions have - as a result of being in those unions it needs to be said - rather than the race to the bottom, minimum wage, zero hours, (no holiday pay, no sick pay, no maternity pay,) non unionised culture we seem to be heading faster and faster into.