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Arriva Rail North DOO

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Wychwood93

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Can you asnwer the questions I raise over DOO services then? (Page 140)

Stabbings on board are not really an everyday occurrence.
I do recall reading your post and have re-read it. I was never traincrew but dealt with assorted incidents on trains as any member of the public would have - a guy with a knife at Southampton one morning, as you might well come across (hopefully not) - calm things down, reassure passengers etc. herd them away, and just hope to f*** that he doesn't stab you! Job done. Didn't even mention it to the wife for years - she was surprised! Dealing with Control after an XC driver had a heart issue travelling pass up front on the HST he had driven down, with me on-board, to Bomo. I was at Christchurch at the time, obviously off-duty for work but on-duty otherwise, and used the phone on the platform to advise re. progress etc. It is what you do. A mention in the Control log for me was little comfort for the fact that my trip down from work at Reading (Thames Trains) was the last time he drove a train.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I was recently on a train on which the guard was assaulted. He (quite understandably) hid in the back cab until Police assistance arrived, leaving the passengers to it. I didn't feel overly threatened as I could easily have overpowered him but I'd imagine some others would have been worried, and a few people did move coach.

So I don't think it was really any different than a DOO train would have been, except that on a DOO train he'd have got away without paying and wouldn't have got violent (as it was a typical case of a drunk being asked to buy a ticket and turning on the guard when he was). This was on a Paytrain line, there was no opportunity to purchase before boarding. But guard or no guard, the passengers were in exactly the same position.
 

HowardGWR

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I was recently on a train on which the guard was assaulted. He (quite understandably) hid in the back cab until Police assistance arrived, leaving the passengers to it. I didn't feel overly threatened as I could easily have overpowered him but I'd imagine some others would have been worried, and a few people did move coach.

So I don't think it was really any different than a DOO train would have been, except that on a DOO train he'd have got away without paying and wouldn't have got violent (as it was a typical case of a drunk being asked to buy a ticket and turning on the guard when he was). This was on a Paytrain line, there was no opportunity to purchase before boarding. But guard or no guard, the passengers were in exactly the same position.
I don't think you were considering overpowering the guard! :)
 

Overspeed110

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I was recently on a train on which the guard was assaulted. He (quite understandably) hid in the back cab until Police assistance arrived, leaving the passengers to it. I didn't feel overly threatened as I could easily have overpowered him but I'd imagine some others would have been worried, and a few people did move coach.

So I don't think it was really any different than a DOO train would have been, except that on a DOO train he'd have got away without paying and wouldn't have got violent (as it was a typical case of a drunk being asked to buy a ticket and turning on the guard when he was). This was on a Paytrain line, there was no opportunity to purchase before boarding. But guard or no guard, the passengers were in exactly the same position.

Point being that the guard presumably summoned assistance! Had that been DOO there
could have been a substantial delay in doing that, which could have had all sorts of repercussions!
 

Bletchleyite

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Point being that the guard presumably summoned assistance! Had that been DOO there
could have been a substantial delay in doing that, which could have had all sorts of repercussions!

The driver (who later went back to check on him but ignored the miscreant entirely, who by then had calmed down and taken a seat in anticipation of the blue flashing inevitable) may well have done so, and would have done so on a DOO train.
 

Robertj21a

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"I'm not anti -union but...".

Up there with "I don't mean to cause offence, but... ' .Or '' interesting'.

All phrases that mean the opposite of what's being said.

I love how I am in the position of not rating the RMT all that much from a position of actually being in the union rather than assuming it's full of Jurassic period collectiins. (I still fully support their aims though). We won't change your views one bit, you certainly won't change mine, but it's nice to be on the front foot for once in here. And you pro-dooers hate this. Yes it will cause damage to us long term, but doing nothing will do far more to the railway. We are the last mass group of union workers with real clout in this country and you'd do well to listen to some of us with the stuff that's going to be thrown at this country over the next few years.. We are already on the way to the Victorian 'paradise' that the Tories want. Unfortunately the Georgian/Victorian era was not good for the majority of our elders. Don't make the mistakes they did.. again.

I'm not sure which bit of the universe you come from but please continue with these tales, the best laughs I've had in ages.
 

Overspeed110

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The driver (who later went back to check on him but ignored the miscreant entirely, who by then had calmed down and taken a seat in anticipation of the blue flashing inevitable) may well have done so, and would have done so on a DOO train.

Maybe, but likely a delay in doing so. A lot can happen in a very very short timeframe. But having a guard there, able to summon assistance, regardless of whether they've locked themselves away in the back cab or not depending on the circumstances , could mean the difference between someone, possibly you (or me) waking up again, or not. Edit - you might think this is far fetched , but situations like this do happen, (and have done) . And one time is too many.
 
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Killingworth

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Does that mean support for the strikes has increased? Or is it because fewer managers are available (i.e. not on holiday) to stand in?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the dispute practical human factors are coming into play. Northern have managed to keep some services running by training non train crew to cover some trains.

At first there was novelty involved but the training alone took many man hours of their time when they weren't doing their duties. Even to fulfill a basic part of the guards role means losing weeks away from whatever they should have been doing.

The novelty of doing the job is now wearing off, but those involved have a much better understanding of what the job entails than they did before. They better understand why the guards role is needed, and how the duties could be changed to better reflect modern rolling stock, station operations, fare collection and customer service.

Longer standing staff in these positions will mostly see it through, but Saturdays will not be at all popular. Younger staff, and those who are more mobile, are looking for positions elsewhere.

Those who wish to arrange meetings with Northern management and officers at any level are finding it hard to fix dates as the staff concerned are preparing, working and catching up after acting as guards, and taking appropriate rest days to compensate for those days worked.

These are significant costs to the business. The Saturday dates are, from a RMT point of view, a shrewd move to ratchet up the pressure.

They will also hack off a lot of leisure travellers who will only understand there are few, if any, trains. Having to rely on special timetables for odd days doesn't help those on lines with no service at all. Get out the car or stay at home.

At present the entire rail industry is suffering as a result of this dispute.
 
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Andyh82

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Agreed, it seems to me there's a few people on here very jealous of the t&c people who are still in some of the last big unions have - as a result of being in those unions it needs to be said - rather than the race to the bottom, minimum wage, zero hours, (no holiday pay, no sick pay, no maternity pay,) non unionised culture we seem to be heading faster and faster into.

There is a vast gulf between what conditions RMT members have and those that non unionised workers have in offices and the like up and down the country, but the majority of people in non unionised jobs don’t have those poor conditions you mention, despite what the media might always say. The gap isn’t as wide as that.
 

Overspeed110

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Yes there's (presently) a lot of people not on zero hours, but there's a hell of a lot who weren't but are now....
 

387star

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With an election round the corner surely this dispute is becoming more and more unpalatable
 

Carlisle

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With an election round the corner surely this dispute is becoming more and more unpalatable
Best have a word with the RMT , or hope Jezza wins shortly , the disputes probably gone on too long now for any government involved just to cave in to all the unions demands simply to achieve a reliable train service., which they likley feel they pay a small fortune for allready.
 
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northwichcat

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It's all it is on here, anti-union. It makes me laugh, they go to work with their zero hour contracts and minimum wages, yet feel unions who fight for terms and conditions that offer a standard of living and a living wage are bad. Thatchers children born and bred.
The Northern management kept the RMT team waiting, didn't show up on some occasions, on others cancelled. Then they go around bleating when people say enough. What it was, and this is the truth, they thought they could buy time because they got wind that we were going to hit the school holidays. It was all a sham, so don't come crying now.

It's worth remembering a lot of the passenger criticising the RMT's stance are members of trade unions themselves. They are pro-trade union but think the RMT is an unprofessional union.

Whether I am an employee or a customer I don't think any urgent situation should be made to wait because the managers are due in a meeting or because the managers are already in a meeting. It doesn't matter if the meeting is with potential investors or a trade union, the urgent situation takes priority over the scheduled meeting. If the RMT don't want that to happen presumably they'll be happy with a couple of HR assistants without managerial responsibility meeting with them instead - they'll always be on time and never have to leave the meeting part way through. ;)
 

northwichcat

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Ideally driver open, guard close. As Northern have guaranteed jobs and salary until 2025 it would make sense just to leave things be through a renegotiated franchise to compensate for Network Rail's failings.

How does that allow more time to be spent on revenue duties or prevent services being cancelled if the second member of staff takes ill? It wouldn't deliver benefits for Northern and would still require negotiation with ASLEF. All it would do would mean making RMT member's jobs slightly easier - so win win for the RMT and no win for anyone else.
 

northwichcat

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But the guard is still required to:

- confirm the train is in the correct location;

- release the doors.

Clearly moving to driver open guard close would remove this activity and would save *some* time at each and every stop (albeit the saving would vary by location).

I’m therefore unclear why you think this system makes more sense for intercity services, which may only stop 3 or 4 times per journey, than for local services stopping perhaps 10-15 times in a short period?

It strikes me that the objective of freeing up guards to flog more tickets could have been partially achieved by moving to this system. This might have also avoided the recent industrial action!

Yet some Intercity trains can be stopped at stations for a few minutes so if the guard releases he/she either waits on the platform for a few minutes (where there's likely already to be platform staff) or releases, goes off to do something else and then comes back to close. For a local service there's often no time for a guard to go off and do something between releasing and closing unless they have to get the ramp out.
 

Bromley boy

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Whether I am an employee or a customer I don't think any urgent situation should be made to wait because the managers are due in a meeting or because the managers are already in a meeting. It doesn't matter if the meeting is with potential investors or a trade union, the urgent situation takes priority over the scheduled meeting. If the RMT don't want that to happen presumably they'll be happy with a couple of HR assistants without managerial responsibility meeting with them instead - they'll always be on time and never have to leave the meeting part way through. ;)

So you think the way Northern management messed the RMT around was fine and isn’t deserving of any criticism whatsoever? It couldn’t possibly have been a delaying tactic/incompetence/unprofessionalism on their behalf?

The RMT aren’t perfect but the bias of some posters on here is unbelievable: it seems that certain contributors are incapable of acknowledging any shortcomings on behalf of the TOC and simply want to blame the RMT for everything.
 

northwichcat

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If every "Northern Connect" services calls only at stations that are staffed for the whole of the operating day, I'll eat my hat.

There's no reason why a service can't be part guard operated and part DCO, especially considering they'll likely be crew changes en route for some services. Also some Connect services will be operated by 158s (not just the North East to Cumbria one) so they'll need guards.
 

Bromley boy

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Best have a word with the RMT , or hope Jezza wins shortly , the disputes probably gone on too long now for any government involved just to cave in to all the unions demands simply to achieve a reliable train service., which they likley feel they pay a small fortune for allready.

So far these disputes have cost a rather large fortune of public money. Do you think that’s a sensible use of taxpayers’ funds?
 

Moonshot

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How does that allow more time to be spent on revenue duties or prevent services being cancelled if the second member of staff takes ill? It wouldn't deliver benefits for Northern and would still require negotiation with ASLEF. All it would do would mean making RMT member's jobs slightly easier - so win win for the RMT and no win for anyone else.

Sometimes a situation will occur where a guard is stuck in the middle of a train and has to fight to get back to the local door to operate door release. Giving that bit to the driver eases the pressure. Its a lot more common than you might imagine.
 

Moonshot

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There's local council elections next May. Maybe some of those Labour councillors who signed off the Northern franchise spec (through having a Rail North position) will be unseated. ;)

Wont make a scrap of difference, policies have to be implemented - they dont stop simply because of a cgange of councillor. An argument about who gets to press a button to open train doors is hardly front line political news
 

Bletchleyite

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How does that allow more time to be spent on revenue duties or prevent services being cancelled if the second member of staff takes ill? It wouldn't deliver benefits for Northern and would still require negotiation with ASLEF. All it would do would mean making RMT member's jobs slightly easier - so win win for the RMT and no win for anyone else.

It makes revenue duties easier and stops passengers being unable to alight while a guard finishes his transaction, and also means the doors being released about 5 seconds quicker than if the guard has to open a local door first. I think it is an approach which should be used for all UK trains quite apart from any other move towards DOO, and indeed is used by VTWC, XC and was used by Southern prior to moving to DOO.
 

northwichcat

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So you think the way Northern management messed the RMT around was fine and isn’t deserving of any criticism whatsoever? It couldn’t possibly have been a delaying tactic/incompetence/unprofessionalism on their behalf?

The RMT aren’t perfect but the bias of some posters on here is unbelievable: it seems that certain contributors are incapable of acknowledging any shortcomings on behalf of the TOC and simply want to blame the RMT for everything.

The RMT are claiming it is a delaying tactic/incompetence/unprofessionalism etc. Presumably the management said why they arrived late or why they had to leave early, so why aren't the RMT telling us the excuse they were given?
 

Moonshot

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It makes revenue duties easier and stops passengers being unable to alight while a guard finishes his transaction, and also means the doors being released about 5 seconds quicker than if the guard has to open a local door first. I think it is an approach which should be used for all UK trains quite apart from any other move towards DOO, and indeed is used by VTWC, XC and was used by Southern prior to moving to DOO.

I think if you averaged out the time saving it would be a lot more than that overall. It could potentially save 3 mins or so per actual service according to my educated guess. That could have a significant positive impact in areas where pathing is very tight.

I reckon most guards would actually accept that.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think if you averaged out the time saving it would be a lot more than that overall. It could potentially save 3 mins or so per actual service according to my educated guess. That could have a significant positive impact in areas where pathing is very tight.

I reckon most guards would actually accept that.

That's not a bad point. After all, two minutes had to be added to Ormskirk-Liverpool Merseyrail running times in the 1990s (which actually necessitated adding an extra unit and crew, if I recall correctly) when hustle alarms were added, thus adding just 10 seconds to the dispatch time. (Move on a few years and that unit is needed for Maghull North anyway, of course :) )

FWIW, while the timetable allows for it so it doesn't cause actual delay, the running on Bedford-Bletchley is rather sluggish, and I've observed on many occasions that delayed door release while waiting for a transaction to be completed is a common cause. I reckon you'd probably get a couple of minutes off that as well - no great issue as it's self-contained at both ends, but might give a better impression to passengers. Added to the likely gain of a couple of minutes from the higher acceleration of Class 230s as compared to 153s, that's starting to get noticeable. 46 minutes down to 41 or even 40 is potentially something to shout about, even if it's poor compared with driving.
 
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I do wish the RMT would learn a lesson, I dont want to sound like I am repeating myself time and time again but why can they cannot sit down and talk secure the staff roles and T&Cs, Get the role guaranteed an agreement signed list of competencies etc etc. If it's in the franchise agreement the company is obliged to carry it out and it will happen. Remember what happened on Southern, a deal was agreed at the last minute before it was imposed on ASLEF and before this the guards were forced to sign new contracts. There is a long way to go on this and I am sure ASLEF will call some action to secure some extra money for the drivers for their additional responsibility.
 
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