Arriva Rail North DOO

[Moonshot]

Thanks.

...suggests that the paragraph doesn't apply to all services that'll run DOO, but it seems contradictory. However, it doesn't mandate that a second person is actually provided, only that the train crew diagrams provide for one.

Which would suggest to me that if for some reason there was no second person available, then that train can still run.....which has to benefit the passengers....which is what rail uk is actually designed for.

 

[Carlisle]

Mick Cash's actually a lot cleverer than you think. .

I have to disagree, if he continues in the same manner, he’ll merely end up proving to be as useful an asset to the rail industry as Dr Beeching or the Serpell report .

 

[northwichcat]

Even Northern have confirmed that they don't plan to have a second person aboard every train and some stations will be staffed instead.

I'm sure you're well aware with pay rises where unions are involved the employer doesn't make their best offer straight away and the union will demand more than they expect to get initially and the end result will be somewhere in the middle.

With the DOO dispute I expect both sides are doing the same. Northern want to see planning to provide a second member of staff on all services as an improved offer, not the initial offer. If it's the initial offer the RMT won't agree to anything within the terms of the franchise agreement.

 

[scrapy]

No idea, that sort of detail hasnt been made public to us, but from a passenger perspective , it should do. Dont forget, these Northern Connect services are generally limited stop services at stations where there are already staff anyway......and to give you an example , Bolton has been fitted with RA indicators which are not yet in use

RA indicators were fitted at Bolton but not used prior to new signals being put in. They were last used around 10 years ago when Virgin Cross-country stopped there. They are not new.

 

[northwichcat]

Which would suggest to me that if for some reason there was no second person available, then that train can still run.....which has to benefit the passengers....which is what rail uk is actually designed for.

Indeed. The issue should be ensuring Northern employ enough staff so that the second person being unavailable only happens in exceptional circumstances, rather than disputing that in exceptional circumstances the train should be cancelled so that the role of the second person isn't undervalued. If you leave passengers at rural, remote stations for 60 minutes due to a guard/second member of staff being unavailable then the safety of those passengers is still compromised - plus they're inconvenienced as well.

 

[Tomnick]

Which would suggest to me that if for some reason there was no second person available, then that train can still run.....which has to benefit the passengers....which is what rail uk is actually designed for.

Yes. Which means, in turn, that there's no incentive really to ensure that those traincrew diagrams are covered, which rather makes nonsense of your claim that the franchise agreement mandates a second person on every train.

 

[Moonshot]

Yes. Which means, in turn, that there's no incentive really to ensure that those traincrew diagrams are covered, which rather makes nonsense of your claim that the franchise agreement mandates a second person on every train.

You have just read the same document I have......it says it in black and white. There will be second persons on trains.....just like there are now. But the big difference ( and this applies to the Northern Connect services ) is that a lack of a second person will not cancel a train. Now please dont tell me I havent read the franchise document. I clearly have. And you had not....which puts me in a much better position than you to actually undertstand what is going on. Add in the fact that I actually work for Northern ( and you dont ), then I really have got a much better idea than you.

 

[Moonshot]

Indeed. The issue should be ensuring Northern employ enough staff so that the second person being unavailable only happens in exceptional circumstances, rather than disputing that in exceptional circumstances the train should be cancelled so that the role of the second person isn't undervalued. If you leave passengers at rural, remote stations for 60 minutes due to a guard/second member of staff being unavailable then the safety of those passengers is still compromised - plus they're inconvenienced as well.

Dont forget its 50% of mileage as we have discussed before, but then that still leaves the rest of the network where in reality ( and for a multitude of reasons ) a guard is still going to be required on a train.

 

[northwichcat]

Dont forget its 50% of mileage as we have discussed before, but then that still leaves the rest of the network where in reality ( and for a multitude of reasons ) a guard is still going to be required on a train.

If a class 150 route is missing a guard and a 195 route has a guard being the 'second member of staff' and the guard signs both routes then hopefully the guard gets switched to prevent the cancellation.

 

[Tomnick]

You have just read the same document I have......it says it in black and white. There will be second persons on trains.....just like there are now. But the big difference ( and this applies to the Northern Connect services ) is that a lack of a second person will not cancel a train. Now please dont tell me I havent read the franchise document. I clearly have. And you had not....which puts me in a much better position than you to actually undertstand what is going on. Add in the fact that I actually work for Northern ( and you dont ), then I really have got a much better idea than you.

Yes, you keep saying that you work for Northern. We get the idea. You claimed that a second person on every train was mandated in the franchise agreement, though, and now it turns out that it isn't. Either you don't understand what's going on or you're doing your best to mislead everyone else.

Northern could produce a full set of traincrew diagrams to plan a second person on every DOO service, and then not cover a single one of them (through a combination of not filling vacancies and not paying overtime to cover work) and they wouldn't breach that agreement.

It isn't set in stone that this will apply only to Northern Connect services or that it'll only/largely affect services stopping at major stations either.

 

[scrapy]

RA indicators were fitted at Bolton but not used prior to new signals being put in. They were last used around 10 years ago when Virgin Cross-country stopped there. They are not new.

I have to disagree, if he continues in the same manner eventually he’ll merely end up as useful an asset to the rail industry as Dr Beeching.

Like it or not Dr Beeching was fairly successful at what he intended to do.

I'm sure you're well aware with pay rises where unions are involved the employer doesn't make their best offer straight away and the union will demand more than they expect to get initially and the end result will be somewhere in the middle.

With the DOO dispute I expect both sides are doing the same. Northern want to see planning to provide a second member of staff on all services as an improved offer, not the initial offer. If it's the initial offer the RMT won't agree to anything within the terms of the franchise agreement.

I agree with you there. However I still do not see anything in the franchise agreement that requires a second person to even be rostered to every train.

The invitation to tender did require it however it also said full DOO was acceptable provided that disabled access, security and revenue wasn't compromised.
At a stakeholder meeting this question was asked of a manager who said that a member of staff could be guaranteed if a person had booked assistance, they had employed xx number of travelsafe officers and were introducing ticket machines and penalty fares with random checks. He then was asked about turn up and go access for disabled people and how much would be saved by not having a second person on the train. He said he didn't like the way the discussion was going and refused to answer any further questions.

 

[Moonshot]

Yes, you keep saying that you work for Northern. We get the idea. You claimed that a second person on every train was mandated in the franchise agreement, though, and now it turns out that it isn't. Either you don't understand what's going on or you're doing your best to mislead everyone else.

Northern could produce a full set of traincrew diagrams to plan a second person on every DOO service, and then not cover a single one of them (through a combination of not filling vacancies and not paying overtime to cover work) and they wouldn't breach that agreement.

It isn't set in stone that this will apply only to Northern Connect services or that it'll only/largely affect services stopping at major stations either.

Do you honestly think that would happen?? Get real, Rail North/DFT are specifying exactly what they want from this franchise, but have made some allowance for normal day to day disruption.

Now I can safely tell you that we as guards in our messroom are well aware that the 12 routes to be branded as Northern Connect services will see the current guard in a far more customer facing role. We wont be doing doors, which some are actually quite happy about.

 

[Moonshot]

RA indicators were fitted at Bolton but not used prior to new signals being put in. They were last used around 10 years ago when Virgin Cross-country stopped there. They are not new.

Like it or not Dr Beeching was fairly successful at what he intended to do.

I agree with you there. However I still do not see anything in the franchise agreement that requires a second person to even be rostered to every train.

The invitation to tender did require it however it also said full DOO was acceptable provided that disabled access, security and revenue wasn't compromised.
At a stakeholder meeting this question was asked of a manager who said that a member of staff could be guaranteed if a person had booked assistance, they had employed xx number of travelsafe officers and were introducing ticket machines and penalty fares with random checks. He then was asked about turn up and go access for disabled people and how much would be saved by not having a second person on the train. He said he didn't like the way the discussion was going and refused to answer any further questions.

Turn up and go will still apply when these Northern Connect services start, because they are serving stations with station staff, who are actually responsible for loading and unloading of wheelchairs. To give you an example, station staff at Bolton will load a wheelchair, and then phone through to Piccadilly ( as an example ) and inform staff that a wheelchair is on its way. That is how it has always worked. I would say that of the small number I load in any given month myslef, the overwhelming majority have been from stations where there are no staff.

 

[scrapy]

You have just read the same document I have......it says it in black and white. There will be second persons on trains.....just like there are now. But the big difference ( and this applies to the Northern Connect services ) is that a lack of a second person will not cancel a train. Now please dont tell me I havent read the franchise document. I clearly have. And you had not....which puts me in a much better position than you to actually undertstand what is going on. Add in the fact that I actually work for Northern ( and you dont ), then I really have got a much better idea than you.

You claim to work for Northern but seem to be very out of the loop as suggested by several Northern employees on here. If you do genuinely work for Northern then revealing on a public forum how much managers get for covering strike days is almost certainly a breach of your company's IT policy and quite likely gross misconduct.

 

[Bromley boy]

Is there any system which makes sure that even if the train stops short the doors won't be released (458s?)

The balise based system used in the TL core is the best there is (doors cannot be released unless the train is accurately stopped above the balise). Even 700s are capable of being stop-short released or wrongside released elsewhere on the network (stop short releases are less likely than with other stock, in any case, as 700s are fixed formation 8/12 car units).

I don’t know about 458s but my suspiscion is that *any* system relying on GPS won’t be accurate enough.

Taking the electrostar system as an example, the GPS will tell the train it is at X station when it is within a few hundred yards of that location. The SDO/release buttons will then release the requisite number of doors for that location wherever the train is positioned on the platform (or even if the train is stopped at a signal outside the station!).

 

[scrapy]

Turn up and go will still apply when these Northern Connect services start, because they are serving stations with station staff, who are actually responsible for loading and unloading of wheelchairs. To give you an example, station staff at Bolton will load a wheelchair, and then phone through to Piccadilly ( as an example ) and inform staff that a wheelchair is on its way. That is how it has always worked. I would say that of the small number I load in any given month myslef, the overwhelming majority have been from stations where there are no staff.

That's fine but Bolton to Manchester is not a full Northern connect route. Also even with guards I regularly see a guard going down to get a wheelchair off because station staff are doing something else or have forgot. Whilst certain Northern connect stations will be staffed from 1st train to last these services will still stop at other stations that are unstaffed.

 

[Robertj21a]

Absolutely. Interesting that now a lot of people are picking up on the fact that fare increases are being used to boost profits of foreign owned rail companies. That is thanks to the RMT's blunt campaign of the truth. Asking why we are paying German state railways to undermine safety on our own is one of the best publicity leaflets I have ever seen. It gets right under the skin does that.
Wait until the truth comes out about how much it has cost the government to prop up this failing outfit. Then the brown stuff will really hit the fan. Grayling has managed to keep a lid on it for now, but he won't for ever.

Utterly deluded, thanks for the entertainment. If you seriously believe that Mick Cash is clever then it only confirms my views of his abilities. He's out of his depth, made even more obvious by the ability of his predecessor. This is nothing anywhere close to the skills employed by other 'proper' leaders, like O'Leary.

 

[woodmally]

So Northern have now announced the 6 days strike action. This action is what I have been hoping for. For too long it's been one strike here one there. Meaning the problem doesnt come to a head. RMT can sustain the strike and Northern through scab workforce maintain the service. At some point the RMT will realise they cannot win and members will get angry with loss of pay and will be forced to back down. I think we will be at that point soon.

 

[Bromley boy]

Correctly positioned seems to just be train not overlapping ends of platform, which at most Northern stations is never going to be issue as the platforms are much longer than the trains. At stations with a 'Harrington hump' they release the doors as normal even if the doors aren't correctly lined up with the hump.

But the guard is still required to:

- confirm the train is in the correct location;

- release the doors.

Clearly moving to driver open guard close would remove this activity and would save *some* time at each and every stop (albeit the saving would vary by location).

I’m therefore unclear why you think this system makes more sense for intercity services, which may only stop 3 or 4 times per journey, than for local services stopping perhaps 10-15 times in a short period?

It strikes me that the objective of freeing up guards to flog more tickets could have been partially achieved by moving to this system. This might have also avoided the recent industrial action!

 

[Moonshot]

You claim to work for Northern but seem to be very out of the loop as suggested by several Northern employees on here. If you do genuinely work for Northern then revealing on a public forum how much managers get for covering strike days is almost certainly a breach of your company's IT policy and quite likely gross misconduct.

Considering its my brother in law who informed me of that ( who is a DTM ), I rather think not.

 

[driver_m]

So Northern have now announced the 6 days strike action. This action is what I have been hoping for. For too long it's been one strike here one there. Meaning the problem doesnt come to a head. RMT can sustain the strike and Northern through scab workforce maintain the service. At some point the RMT will realise they cannot win and members will get angry with loss of pay and will be forced to back down. I think we will be at that point soon.

Ah, you're back. Try reading what actual Northern staff are saying above. You.may find yourself to be very wrong. It's coming to a head soon for a very different reason. The drivers will be involved soon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It strikes me that the objective of freeing up guards to flog more tickets could have been partially achieved by moving to this system. This might have also avoided the recent industrial action!

I would agree. If nothing else, it avoids passengers being inconvenienced by being unable to leave the train while the guard finishes his transaction and tries to squash past everyone else to get to a panel.

 

[driver_m]

Considering its my brother in law who informed me of that ( who is a DTM ), I rather think not.

We'll youve probably just outed yourself now as to where you work .And if you have blabbed something you shouldn't have .(Which I guess you shouldn't have), then maybe they'll be in bother as well.

Talking money that's not part of the regular salary usually is a breach

 

[Moonshot]

That's fine but Bolton to Manchester is not a full Northern connect route. Also even with guards I regularly see a guard going down to get a wheelchair off because station staff are doing something else or have forgot. Whilst certain Northern connect stations will be staffed from 1st train to last these services will still stop at other stations that are unstaffed.

That sometimes happens. Guards are trained in wheelchair loadings no matter which station it is. But first and foremost, at a major station with staff, its the platform staff who are first port of call.

 

[Sybic26]

Absolutely. Interesting that now a lot of people are picking up on the fact that fare increases are being used to boost profits of foreign owned rail companies. That is thanks to the RMT's blunt campaign of the truth. Asking why we are paying German state railways to undermine safety on our own is one of the best publicity leaflets I have ever seen. It gets right under the skin does that.
Wait until the truth comes out about how much it has cost the government to prop up this failing outfit. Then the brown stuff will really hit the fan. Grayling has managed to keep a lid on it for now, but he won't for ever.

How many Deutsche Bahn services other than IC and ICE operate under DOO conditions?

 

[Moonshot]

We'll youve probably just outed yourself now as to where you work .And if you have blabbed something you shouldn't have .(Which I guess you shouldn't have), then maybe they'll be in bother as well.

Talking money that's not part of the regular salary usually is a breach

You mean like the £1k that drivers got and has been well publicised?

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Utterly deluded, thanks for the entertainment. If you seriously believe that Mick Cash is clever then it only confirms my views of his abilities. He's out of his depth, made even more obvious by the ability of his predecessor. This is nothing anywhere close to the skills employed by other 'proper' leaders, like O'Leary.

Who cares about your views?

 

[Darandio]

We'll youve probably just outed yourself now as to where you work .And if you have blabbed something you shouldn't have .(Which I guess you shouldn't have), then maybe they'll be in bother as well.

Talking money that's not part of the regular salary usually is a breach

So many are dubious of them working for as a guard for Northern, i'm one of them. I'm inclined to believe that a relative does, and that is where the flow of information is coming from.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

So Northern have now announced the 6 days strike action. This action is what I have been hoping for. For too long it's been one strike here one there. Meaning the problem doesnt come to a head. RMT can sustain the strike and Northern through scab workforce maintain the service. At some point the RMT will realise they cannot win and members will get angry with loss of pay and will be forced to back down. I think we will be at that point soon.

Listen pal. I'm a Northern guard, and trust me, this strike is supported more now than it ever has been. But keep up the fantasy.

 

[Robertj21a]

Who cares about your views?

Ah, the true voice speaks up at last !!

I always thought there was free speech - but seemingly not if you say anything against the RMT.

Pitiful. You really do know how to evidence the scale of the overall problem.