Could go to Tamworth and replace the versas maybe? Although some of derbys pulsars are getting on abit now so I can’t see them staying at wherever they go for long and it Sounds like tamworths 11 new electric busses aren’t happening either because they can’t install the charging infrastructure due to not enough electric supply apparently.
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If that is the case, which given how long this has dragged on for, wouldn't surprise me, what other options are there?
Trainman40083
Established Member
I think a few bus operators have found this out...
Heard from somewhere that they would convert the e400mmc hopper busses to hybrid. But I realistically can’t see this happening.
Odd choice, how many is there?
I knew new buses for Tamworth seemed a bit optimistic, it's a bit of a kick in the teeth when you look at how much investment is going on elsewhere.
There’s 9 in total Tamworth already have 1. I pretty sure it won’t happen as hybrid busses have never really been reliable.
Hybrid seems to be old tech now for buses, it seems to be either straight diesel or electric, hydrogen is a non-starter too.
Just new MMC's would be a result at this point to be honest.
Don’t quote me but I’m fairly sure I seen somewhere that Birmingham city council made it a requirement for electric or zero emissions busses for a date in the future to enter Birmingham abit like Leicester is trying to do. This would cause problems on the 110. I’m not sure of they would make an exception for hybrids or ultra low emissions diesels like the new adl’s. We will have to see what happens in the near or not so near future but until they can get something sorted it looks like the e400s are staying.
citybus2500
Member
There is no such requirement for Birmingham coming up. And anway, as is constantly mentioned on here, Arriva are due EVs for the 110.
Hybrids are very much still a thing elsewhere, both full and mild versions.
Read back a few posts, I'm not sure where @isaac27 has heard it from, but there is doubt over the electrics...
I'm not one for rumours, but there is very little to contradict this claim at the moment.
Yes they were and maybe still are due 11 byd deckers however now it’s come to electrify the depot they can’t install the required amount of chargers because the national grid has said they physically can’t supply that amount of electricity through the existing cables and infrastructure. National grid could upgrade the cables to the depot but this would take time and funding. Talks were now that derby lost the Nottingham university contracts they would look at turning these 9 e400 mmc’s into hybrids if they couldn’t get the cables upgraded and send them to Tamworth. I can’t realistically see them turning nearly 10 year old busses into hybrids. We will have to wait and see.
Edit (these byd’s were supposed to be arriving July/ August assuming the installation of the chargers went to plan)
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
This was also posted on the Arriva Facebook group earlier on this week which pretty much backs up what I heard from elsewhere regarding the electrification of Tamworth.
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Tobias is well known by many for posting alot of fake information so i wouldn't count him much as a trust worthy source
Tobias is well known by many for posting alot of fake information so i wouldn't count him much as a trust worthy source
Maybe so, but either way, something has clearly gone wrong with the introduction of the electrics that were first announced well over two years ago.
citybus2500
Member
Talk of conversion to hybrid is nonsense. And there is no requirement to anything better than Euro6 in the West Midlands.
The BYDs are due in December/January.
The depot was already an issue as it is likely to have to move within the next few years.
Tobias is well known by many for posting alot of fake information so i wouldn't count him much as a trust worthy source
Well given that they haven't ordered Electroliners for Tamworth, it doesn't start well!!
These two points kind of contradict them selves, are you suggesting the electrics are still coming and there is no issue with fitting the charging equipment or not?
cnjb8
Established Member
Either way ZEBRA funding was allocated to the 110 with BYDs ordered using this money so Arriva will need to do what they can to get them on the road. Its not unheard of to have new electric buses sitting unused for months or even years because of charging problems at depots
joieman
Member
Me neither, a lot of the information he gives is quite outlandish. I mean, why merge the 16 back into the 127 when Arriva decided about ten years ago that they would be better run separately?Tobias is well known by many for posting alot of fake information so i wouldn't count him much as a trust worthy source
Trainman40083
Established Member
One might think the solution is to move depot.
Thaf means spending money
Trainman40083
Established Member
Might be easier than a bus depot full of electric buses, you can't charge.
Yeah true, we will have to wait and see...
All I know is something needs to happen, Tameorths fleet is a disgrace.
Same guy who was going around telling everybody that we were getting a new “X1” from Leicester to Birmingham, as well as that all the Temsa coaches were being scrapped and replaced with the Tourismos…
First Leicester got a brand new modern depot after the original Leicester City bus site was sold to developers Not a quick option towards electrification but the Tamworth garage is right in the town centre so you never know
SSmith2009
Member
They relocated to Abbey Lane as they needed modern facilities and an earlier fire destroying parts of the storage sheds was also a factor in moving to the new site.
going off topic a bit - Centrebus had an issue with electricity supply/capacity so had a substation built onsite to allow them to operate electric buses from Wenlock Way.
joieman
Member
Oh yeah, I heard about the Tourismos!
Thurmaston had a dedicated 11kv substation installed for electrification too. that's fairly standard for these large charger installations. Maybe Tamworth garage doesn't have a nearby 11kv circuit it can tap into, or the circuit doesn't have the capacity to accommodate a new connection. Either way that's why network reinforcement might be required to electrify Tamworth garage.
Dwarfer1979
Member
My understanding is the substation is actually a fairly normal part of electrification of a bus depot, because bus depots need a high volume of electricity they need to be connected to the high power lines (charging a single bus via domestic connections can take days) but this needs to be stepped down to be suitable for charging - in the case of Centrebus I understand the high power line that needed to be connected to was actually running down the road outside so the connectional issues often experienced were minimised. It doesn't necessarily need to be on site but it does need to be close to reduce installation costs and minimise power loss as this is greater at lower voltages needed for actualy charging. The issue, I believe, for Centrebus and Arriva at Thurmaston was around getting the landlord of the depot site to agree to the location of this vital piece of infrastructure as the national grid look for relatively long term guarantees of substation location (50 year leases for instance) which mean landlords may not wish the equipment to be in the best site for the operator as it then becomes a restriction on what can be done with the site if the bus operator leaves. This equipment is not always obviously located and not all of the necessary equipment is clearly visible.
The big issue that operators find with electrifying a depot is that the high power line that they need to be connected to is a distance from the depot meaning the connectional costs can run into the millions which can be difficult to fund. You are starting to find 3rd party suppliers entering the market that will fund and install these connections on the basis that will now be a long term demand for these connections they can charge for generally as electrification becomes more generally widespread. The other issue operators running out of older depot buildings can find is that the building simply can't accomodate the charging infrastructure due to the stress on the fabric of the building and/or the space that has to be taken up to avoid it. With Arriva Tamworth it could be any of these or a combination of all of them, the site is very constrained due to its town centre location that means it may be difficult to make space for the connectional requirements, it may be some distance from the suitable lines with high enough power and the building may be difficult to install the charging infrastructure in.
I think part of the reason for First moving the depot was the old Abbey Park Road site remained owned by the council when the operator was sold, it may be that it wasn't worth buying at the price the council wanted given the costs that would have to be incurred to bring it up to standard and it very quickly was far larger than the operation needed but the site was big enough that they could have done the redevelopment in stages without moving off site if they had actually wanted to.
What you have to remember when plugging in a bus to charge, when you flip the switch it is the same as putting 700 kettles on at the same time. Quote from a depot engineer on a visit to Plymouth depot.
If anyone wants to see what large scale charging infrastructure can involve just pop up to Tamworth M42 services. A rapid charging hub for cars and lorries has been installed and required a Primary substation (33kv stepping down to 11kv) to be installed on site, then a few 11kv substations to step the voltage down to the 3 phase mains voltage to the chargers. Very expensive indeed. Whilst a bus garage won't need rapid chargers you can't just connect 20+ chargers without some infrastructure upgrades
That took well over 3 years to complete!