Arriva - license revocation?

[radamfi]

You do come out with some stuff......

Your complacency is breathless...

The bus equivalent to shoplifting is the real time info not working on a particular journey, or a torn seat on one vehicle. We are talking about something far more serious. The inability of Arriva Derby to operate its scheduled timetable.

What would you do about Arriva Derby? Can you justify the service being much worse in Derby than in supposedly much worse bus territories? Would Crawley be better now if Arriva had not deregistered their routes there? How does the industry defend itself when places like Arriva Derby consistently fail to provide a good service?

 

[Robertj21a]

Your complacency is breathless...

The bus equivalent to shoplifting is the real time info not working on a particular journey, or a torn seat on one vehicle. We are talking about something far more serious. The inability of Arriva Derby to operate its scheduled timetable.

What would you do about Arriva Derby? Can you justify the service being much worse in Derby than in supposedly much worse bus territories? Would Crawley be better now if Arriva had not deregistered their routes there? How does the industry defend itself when places like Arriva Derby consistently fail to provide a good service?

Clearly you must have some facts of which I am unaware. Can you confirm what Arriva Derby are guilty of (other than missing a few trips) - and can you please clarify your comment '......places like Arriva Derby consistently fail.....'. Arriva Derby has been up before the TC once before - is that what you feel constitutes 'consistently' ?

Your rather sweeping statements would be far more meaningful if you could provide some facts.

 

[radamfi]

Clearly you must have some facts of which I am unaware. Can you confirm what Arriva Derby are guilty of (other than missing a few trips) - and can you please clarify your comment '......places like Arriva Derby consistently fail.....'. Arriva Derby has been up before the TC once before - is that what you feel constitutes 'consistently' ?

Your rather sweeping statements would be far more meaningful if you could provide some facts.

I'm going off what has been written in this thread.

People seem to be too happy to accept poor performance.

 

[Titfield]

and not prepared to send their complaints to the Traffic Commissioner and Passenger Focus / London Travelwatch.

The TC can only go on hard evidence or where there is very considerable anecdotal evidence.

There don't seem to be enough resources available to undertake sufficient monitoring exercises to provide incontrovertible hard evidence.

 

[radamfi]

There don't seem to be enough resources available to undertake sufficient monitoring exercises to provide incontrovertible hard evidence.

That's how the operators like it. As I pointed out in a different thread, all bus services need to be GPS logged so performance can be comprehensively analysed, instead of relying on ad-hoc surveys.

We should be able to download information for each route like this:

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/d...roughreports/routes/performance-route-465.pdf

 

[Titfield]

Yes I absolutely agree.

It should be a contract term of all tendered and supported services.

Alternatively perhaps it could be linked to FDR Fuel Duty Rebate. No GPS No FDR.

It may seem harsh but the cost of this technology has plummeted in recent years and surely it would also enable operators to rebut spurious claims / complaints.

 

[radamfi]

We badly need it for commercial services as operators seem to think they are untouchable.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Your complacency is breathless...

The bus equivalent to shoplifting is the real time info not working on a particular journey, or a torn seat on one vehicle. We are talking about something far more serious. The inability of Arriva Derby to operate its scheduled timetable.

What would you do about Arriva Derby? Can you justify the service being much worse in Derby than in supposedly much worse bus territories? Would Crawley be better now if Arriva had not deregistered their routes there? How does the industry defend itself when places like Arriva Derby consistently fail to provide a good service?

I'm not being complacent and, by their actions, neither are the TCs as evidenced by the fact that they're inviting Arriva Derby in to explain. However, they have a finite amount of resources and therefore are selective in what transgressions they can investigate.

I don't know why you can't grasp the fact that they have a certain level of resources and so must prioritise their workload? Rather than your crime analogy, I'm sure we all would love the NHS to have the resources to treat every ailment with the same speed and rigour irrespective of it being life threatening or otherwise. However, they can't so they prioritise. That's not to say that we sit back and merely accept that people are in pain but that we have to focus on the most important areas.

As regards what I'd do about Arriva Derby? I confess I don't know the extent of the problems. Perhaps you could enlighten us?

• Are they failing on one route or is it a general malaise?
• Are whole journeys missing or parts of one?
• Is the root cause because drivers are missing out sections of route? If so, is that a question of control (they are choosing to so discipline staff?) or a question of training (they don't know so train them?)
• Is the root cause because of a lack of vehicle availability?
• If so, is it because of a lack of fleet (the spare resource is insufficient) or is it that the fleet is experiencing failures (so is there an issue with maintenance or the age profile of the fleet?)
• Is it a lack of drivers? If so, is a case of recruitment but also why are they leaving? Is it cultural or related to TCEs?
• Are they unable to run to a timetable? If so, is it one particular section and why is that? Has a change to the road network or a set of building/traffic works affected the timetable?

Only when you know the problems and their root cause can you even start to put forward any solutions. Be good to get your insight on those and also to detail your qualifications and experience.

As regards saying that TCs don't have the ability to sack an operator? They do. They can remove an O license. However, why don't they do that as a matter of course, and only for the most serious breaches???

Well, it's not as simplistic as you would have us believe. To do so removes a business' ability to trade. Therefore, you have local authorities having to cover a load of schools and service work. As was seen with Padarn Bus, they couldn't cover everything though Gwynedd had contingency plans. Also, such action also forces a business to the wall. What happens to creditors? Such creditors are often small firms themselves such as fuel suppliers? Many firms don't own the vehicles but lease them from Dawsons or Mistral (who in turn are also creditors) so there are few actual assets that can be realised.

THAT is why TCs don't remove operators' licenses unless in the most serious of instances.

 

[radamfi]

The TCs may *officially* be able to remove an O-licence, but in practice they don't touch the big operators. The big operators know this so know they can pretty much do whatever they want. Only small operators are at risk of being closed down.

You still haven't addressed the issue as to why operators such as Metrobus can run a reasonable service in the south when Arriva couldn't. How can it be right for Arriva to blockade Derby when someone else could undoubtedly do better?

Arriva is a huge multinational so would easily survive having a small part of its empire taken away.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The TCs may *officially* be able to remove an O-licence, but in practice they don't touch the big operators. The big operators know this so know they can pretty much do whatever they want. Only small operators are at risk of being closed down.

You still haven't addressed the issue as to why operators such as Metrobus can run a reasonable service in the south when Arriva couldn't. How can it be right for Arriva to blockade Derby when someone else could undoubtedly do better?

Arriva is a huge multinational so would easily survive having a small part of its empire taken away.

As I've explained before, large businesses generally have controls that stop the very worst instances where firms will lose their O licenses. They have suffered license cuts and the like.

As I've said, I don't know what the allegation is so I don't know why they can't do you feel Metrobus can. Also, Arriva can't blockade Derby. People can exploit such failings by registering accordingly. Stagecoach did that to First in Devon; in fact, many did that to First.

Now what about the questions I posed to you?

 

[radamfi]

Which question(s) do you refer to? If you are talking about the questions in your last post, obviously I can only go off what has been said in this thread as I'm not that familiar with the area but as you say, the TCs only investigate the most serious offenders, so Arriva Derby must surely be really bad.

If it was easy for another operator to take over Derby through competition, they would have done it by now. It would be easier for another company to come in if Arriva voluntarily deregistered its routes, like they did in Crawley. The transition to Metrobus was fairly painless. They didn't even need any of Arriva's vehicles as Metrobus brought in a fleet of buses from Oxford.

Arriva are keen to run a decent service in London, as they don't get bonus payments unless they do. So Arriva are capable of running a good service if they are forced to do so. They have no incentive to do so outside London.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Which question(s) do you refer to? If you are talking about the questions in your last post, obviously I can only go off what has been said in this thread as I'm not that familiar with the area but as you say, the TCs only investigate the most serious offenders, so Arriva Derby must surely be really bad.

If it was easy for another operator to take over Derby through competition, they would have done it by now. It would be easier for another company to come in if Arriva voluntarily deregistered its routes, like they did in Crawley. The transition to Metrobus was fairly painless. They didn't even need any of Arriva's vehicles as Metrobus brought in a fleet of buses from Oxford.

Arriva are keen to run a decent service in London, as they don't get bonus payments unless they do. So Arriva are capable of running a good service if they are forced to do so. They have no incentive to do so outside London.

Well you can talk about what should happen to Arriva Derby if you know the facts. No one can say what the outcome or solution should be if they don't know the problem.

The other point I raised was to enquire as to your professional experience and qualifications.

And remember that the TC can AND DOES impose fines and other restrictions that can financially impact any business.

 

[radamfi]

To be honest, I no longer take any notice of anything said by bus managers and 'industry experts', as they are part of the problem, not the solution. I have a MSc in Transport Engineering and Planning and I work in consultancy, but that it pretty irrelevant. My real 'qualification' is 30 years of travelling and studying public transport in the UK and abroad.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

To be honest, I no longer take any notice of anything said by bus managers and 'industry experts', as they are part of the problem, not the solution. I have a MSc in Transport Engineering and Planning and I work in consultancy, but that it pretty irrelevant. My real 'qualification' is 30 years of travelling and studying public transport in the UK and abroad.

So not an operator - not someone who works for a large transport organisation and has been an O license holder or dealt with legal compliance or dealt with traffic commissioners.

I've flown a lot over the last 30 years, military and civil. Long and short haul. That doesn't mean I'm qualified to say whether Malaysian Airways should be grounded.

 

[radamfi]

So not an operator - not someone who works for a large transport organisation and has been an O license holder or dealt with legal compliance or dealt with traffic commissioners..

But I can recognise a good bus service when I see it. Your typical UK bus manager would say that integration is bad, it is undesirable to connect with other bus/tram/metro services, integrated ticketing is bad, subsidy is bad. How can I take them seriously when they come out with stuff like that?

 

[Robertj21a]

That's how the operators like it. As I pointed out in a different thread, all bus services need to be GPS logged so performance can be comprehensively analysed, instead of relying on ad-hoc surveys.

We should be able to download information for each route like this:

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/d...roughreports/routes/performance-route-465.pdf

Well, Arriva Derby buses are GPS tracked and logged, so that's not the issue. I'm still concerned that you're making a lot of statements about Arriva Derby when you clearly have absolutely no knowledge of the facts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The TCs may *officially* be able to remove an O-licence, but in practice they don't touch the big operators. The big operators know this so know they can pretty much do whatever they want. Only small operators are at risk of being closed down.

You still haven't addressed the issue as to why operators such as Metrobus can run a reasonable service in the south when Arriva couldn't. How can it be right for Arriva to blockade Derby when someone else could undoubtedly do better?

Arriva is a huge multinational so would easily survive having a small part of its empire taken away.

Arriva management at Crawley was very poor. The Metrobus management was actually very good - so it's not difficult to see how they managed to improve the situation (virtually overnight). If Arriva had put in a new management team it's quite probable that they'd have still been there today.
.
.

 

[radamfi]

Well, Arriva Derby buses are GPS tracked and logged, so that's not the issue. I'm still concerned that you're making a lot of statements about Arriva Derby when you clearly have absolutely no knowledge of the facts.

If the logs are available then the guilt (or otherwise) will be easy to prove. If the logs show big gaps in service and the operator doesn't seem to be aware of it, then that is very worrying. Or if they do know the logs are showing bad performance and the operator is choosing not to rectify the situation, that surely is also problematic.

The point is, if reports like the TfL one I posted earlier were created continuously, and there were automatic penalties for missing reliability targets, then there would be no hiding place for the operator and issues would have to be fixed immediately. This thread would not exist.

As it stands at the moment, the data is being collected for the operator's sole benefit and possibly as an input to real time info systems. I wouldn't be surprised if the TC has no right to demand access to logs.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If the logs are available then the guilt (or otherwise) will be easy to prove. If the logs show big gaps in service and the operator doesn't seem to be aware of it, then that is very worrying. Or if they do know the logs are showing bad performance and the operator is choosing not to rectify the situation, that surely is also problematic.

The point is, if reports like the TfL one I posted earlier were created continuously, and there were automatic penalties for missing reliability targets, then there would be no hiding place for the operator and issues would have to be fixed immediately. This thread would not exist.

As it stands at the moment, the data is being collected for the operator's sole benefit and possibly as an input to real time info systems. I wouldn't be surprised if the TC has no right to demand access to logs.

You really haven't got this.

TCs haven't got oodles of staff to go through every late runner and INVESTIGATE. Yes, they can see what has happened but not WHY? Why are you not getting this?

Yes, you can download GPS data that shows a non-compliance but not the reason for it. In the rarified world of TfL where such financial realities don't exist (frittering money on Borismasters), they can do so. Neither TCs nor LAs can do so though they can and do use GPS data. Such data is becoming the norm now that the technology has advanced.

And, of course, GPS data does not help in many other areas of legal compliance such as drivers hours and maintenance breaches that are infinitely more important.

Mind you, sounds like you don't want the TCs to investigate what has happened but merely to punish operators.

 

[radamfi]

I am suggesting that all bus services need to be continuously monitored using similar methods that TfL use. There would of course be a financial implication, but operators could agree to pool their systems together to cut costs, perhaps involving TfL. If standards rise as a result, it may partly or fully pay for itself in improved patronage. There would no longer be any need for public inquiries for poor reliability, so that would be a saving.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I am suggesting that all bus services need to be continuously monitored using similar methods that TfL use. There would of course be a financial implication, but operators could agree to pool their systems together to cut costs, perhaps involving TfL. If standards rise as a result, it may partly or fully pay for itself in improved patronage. There would no longer be any need for public inquiries for poor reliability, so that would be a saving.

Getting information is not the issue. As the technology has improved, the price has come down. However, it's the interpretation and investigation that has to be done. Neither TCs nor LAs have the seemingly limitless resources of TfL.

Also, public enquiries would still need to be done as you can't merely punish anyone without allowing them natural justice. And no amount of GPS data will enable investigation into areas such as drivers hours or maintenance issues.

 

[radamfi]

Getting information is not the issue. As the technology has improved, the price has come down. However, it's the interpretation and investigation that has to be done. Neither TCs nor LAs have the seemingly limitless resources of TfL.

Also, public enquiries would still need to be done as you can't merely punish anyone without allowing them natural justice. And no amount of GPS data will enable investigation into areas such as drivers hours or maintenance issues.

I am suggesting that the operators are required to pay. As I indicated earlier, costs should be manageable if it is tied into TfL's system and might even pay back in extra patronage. TfL had already developed a cost effective monitoring system even before GPS. When London buses were run at near break even. Such a joint nationwide system could deal with other non-compliance issues. We could do away with the TCs.

 

[Robertj21a]

If the logs are available then the guilt (or otherwise) will be easy to prove. If the logs show big gaps in service and the operator doesn't seem to be aware of it, then that is very worrying. Or if they do know the logs are showing bad performance and the operator is choosing not to rectify the situation, that surely is also problematic.

The point is, if reports like the TfL one I posted earlier were created continuously, and there were automatic penalties for missing reliability targets, then there would be no hiding place for the operator and issues would have to be fixed immediately. This thread would not exist.

As it stands at the moment, the data is being collected for the operator's sole benefit and possibly as an input to real time info systems. I wouldn't be surprised if the TC has no right to demand access to logs.

Well you'd be wrong on just about every one of those comments. You do appear to have misunderstood quite a lot about how commercial operations work in the UK.

 

[radamfi]

Well you'd be wrong on just about every one of those comments. You do appear to have misunderstood quite a lot about how commercial operations work in the UK.

I was pointing out how I *think* enforcement outside London *should* be undertaken. Clearly it isn't done like that at the moment, which is why we are having this discussion on this thread.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I am suggesting that the operators are required to pay. As I indicated earlier, costs should be manageable if it is tied into TfL's system and might even pay back in extra patronage. TfL had already developed a cost effective monitoring system even before GPS. When London buses were run at near break even. Such a joint nationwide system could deal with other non-compliance issues. We could do away with the TCs.

The reason why TfL can enforce compliance is because they have the necessary resources to investigate what the data says. If it says a bus is late, why is it late? And of course, you expect the operators to pay for that. Operators who are already being affected by a cut in BSOG, cuts in ENCTS remuneration, loss of tender revenue as local authorities cut supported services. Please don't trot out the old line of they can afford it. We're seeing plenty of smaller firms who clearly can't. You want TfL style enforcement. Well, you need TfL style funding and that isn't going to happen.

What about the other roles of TCs? The legal compliance of operations in terms of drivers hours legislation or vehicle maintenance? And for freight as well as bus/coach services?

Oh, and I nearly let this go. You mention the "typical UK bus manager" - I bet you don't know many if any. I do and I don't recognise the caricature that you paint. In fact, it's downright wrong. These people are passionate, skilled and knowledgable. More knowledge than you. Who are these typical people? The ones I know are bus men and women to the core. They've done their degrees and more and have 20+ years experience. They're often transport lovers so they've travelled extensively. Some even have their own preserved buses. To castigate one and all shows you up. Many are very committed and could easily earn more elsewhere but this is a labour of love. They'd often love to do more but often they're thwarted by local authorities slow pace or blatant politicking. However, you wouldn't know that.

Once again, another sweeping generalisation but one that doesn't bear scrutiny.

I don't know, and more importantly, you don't know what Arriva Derby are alleged to have done, let alone if they're guilty or not. However, you come in with punitive measures, irrelevant comparisons and no actual knowledge or insight and slagging off all and sundry. It was merely boring. Now I'm annoyed!!

 

[Robertj21a]

I was pointing out how I *think* enforcement outside London *should* be undertaken. Clearly it isn't done like that at the moment, which is why we are having this discussion on this thread.

Fair enough, but you're not comparing like with like.

As London/TfL is a regulated environment and the rest of the UK is de-regulated, you have a major problem. If commercial operators outside London were forced to adopt the TfL arrangements then there'd be significant extra costs incurred. Who is to ultimately pay for that - presumably the passengers ?

In a de-regulated environment (i.e the vast majority of the country, the population, and the vast majority of operators), how do you ensure that the new, small, operator is not deterred by the inevitably high(er) start-up costs ?.

You give the impression that operators outside London are awash with money and looking for something to spend it on. That couldn't be further from the truth. Perhaps your apparent obsession with TfL has clouded your understanding of what actually happens in a de-regulated environment.

I might just remind you that TfL is far from perfect. I've never known any operation that turns so many bus journeys short of the intended destination. In case you weren't aware, the real reason for the high volumes of short-turns involved is the need for the individual companies to meet the various targets set by TfL - it's just convenient that delays and traffic problems can be used (all too often) as the reason trotted out to the poor passengers affected.

 

[mbonwick]

Oh, and I nearly let this go. You mention the "typical UK bus manager" - I bet you don't know many if any. I do and I don't recognise the caricature that you paint. In fact, it's downright wrong. These people are passionate, skilled and knowledgable. More knowledge than you. Who are these typical people? The ones I know are bus men and women to the core. They've done their degrees and more and have 20+ years experience. They're often transport lovers so they've travelled extensively. Some even have their own preserved buses. To castigate one and all shows you up. Many are very committed and could easily earn more elsewhere but this is a labour of love. They'd often love to do more but often they're thwarted by local authorities slow pace or blatant politicking. However, you wouldn't know that.

Once again, another sweeping generalisation but one that doesn't bear scrutiny.

Spot on, couldn't have put it better if I tried!

 

[radamfi]

I may have gone too far with my 'typical bus manager' rant, but I can't help feeling angry because I have never read a quote from a bus manager in a bus magazine, transport press or an internet forum saying that we should have integrated fares, or integrated transport networks across all modes. I have only ever heard the reverse.

I've stopped reading UK based transport publications many years ago because of this.

As I posted on another thread, TfL buses are actually run on a shoestring compared to other cities outside the UK. The vehicles are mostly cheap, British made, same or similar to those used outside London and the drivers are not particularly well paid. London buses charge per vehicle, even if the single journey involves a change. The subsidy per passenger of London public transport (including bus and Tube) is one of the lowest, if not the lowest, of major cities in the western world outside the UK.

 

[Qwerty133]

Shame they can't revoke the licence of the whole of Arriva Midlands, as a daily passenger, I'm beyond fed up at the 'service' level from another depot (South wigston).
There's only 2/3 people benefitting from the current state of said depot (the directors of avenger breakdown services), and it is unusual for the route I travel on not to have at least 1 breakdown every day, and for example on Monday neither the 16:00 or 16:20 buses on an every 20 minute ran, due to 2 separate breakdowns, the Monday before the 16:20 broke down less than a mile past the start point and the 08:00 in the other direction didn't run, and on Friday the 08:50 didn't run, as well as another breakdown at 15:15ish. (and I could give plenty of other occasions in the last 2 weeks as well, and remember that this is just one route)

 

[mbonwick]

I have never read a quote from a bus manager in a bus magazine, transport press or an internet forum saying that we should have integrated fares, or integrated transport networks across all modes. I have only ever heard the reverse.

That is usually what is said - but only because they are responding to terrible schemes dreamed up by 'experts' who have no grasp on reality.
Strange how here in the Lake District you can get tickets that let you use the bus and Lake cruises....

As I posted on another thread, TfL buses are actually run on a shoestring compared to other cities outside the UK. The vehicles are mostly cheap, British made, same or similar to those used outside London and the drivers are not particularly well paid. The subsidy per passenger of London public transport (including bus and Tube) is one of the lowest, if not the lowest, of major cities in the western world outside the UK.

But the fact remains that it is subsidised - something that is not possible for the rest of the UK.

I don't see what the price of vehicles, or where they are built, has to do with anything. If you're implying that the vehicles are of inferior quality, then that is simply not the case.
At the end of the say, vehicle manufacturers need to make a profit so design synergies should be commended. Are you seriously saying that the NB4L is a good idea and other places should follow suit?!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I may have gone too far with my 'typical bus manager' rant, but I can't help feeling angry because I have never read a quote from a bus manager in a bus magazine, transport press or an internet forum saying that we should have integrated fares, or integrated transport networks across all modes. I have only ever heard the reverse.

I've stopped reading UK based transport publications many years ago because of this.

As I posted on another thread, TfL buses are actually run on a shoestring compared to other cities outside the UK. The vehicles are mostly cheap, British made, same or similar to those used outside London and the drivers are not particularly well paid. London buses charge per vehicle, even if the single journey involves a change. The subsidy per passenger of London public transport (including bus and Tube) is one of the lowest, if not the lowest, of major cities in the western world outside the UK.

What a red herring that is.....

The rest of the world may decide to spend its money on transport rather than other areas. Also, there's the structural deficit that is worse here than in other Western countries, and a load more cuts coming after the 2015 election. London gets a massive subsidy compared to the rest of the UK. Seven times per head of population. The fact that London gets that much, and you regard it as a shoestring budget, shows how parlous things are in the provinces. And it won't get better any time soon.

Also, you mention integration. I know an instance where several long standing joint services were split with operators then operating respective halves. Thus severing through links and removing operator ticket interavailability.

You would probably (as might others) believe that this was some bus manager being anti-integrationist, before comparing it unfavourably with Burkina Faso. The truth is more prosaic. Fact is that such cooperation that had been commonplace for years was unpicked by the fear from the Competition Commission that it was not cooperation but collusion. However, you wouldn't know that but would simply blame the typical bus manager in the interviews that you don't read.

Also, many bus managers are frustrated by the political and budgetary failings of PTAs and LAs but can't say anything for obvious reasons (e.g. biting the hand that feeds in many instances). Many a council PT Officer shares the same frustration.