Are trains deliberately never timetabled for precisely midnight?

[SargeNpton]

But as 2400 is not a real time, surely 0000 is the same day as 0001?

And that possibility of confusion as to whether midnight is 0000 or 2400 is why it's avoided.

 

[Man_with_beard]

There's a difference between a clock showing 00:00 (which is really just an interpreted version of a Unix timestamp in all likelihood) and a highly compressed data structure where 0's are used to denote 'blank' or 'no call'.

And not a single programmer or computer code can rectify this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And not a single programmer or computer code can rectify this?

It's whether it's worth the cost. And regardless of whether the reason given in the 1990s NRTs has any basis in fact or not (though it was definitely in there as I quoted!) it is true that a 0000 time might cause some people a bit of confusion, so maybe any new software should automatically prevent it anyway. Though with the 24 hour clock it's less confusing - that archaic sounding passage sounds like it comes from the 12 hour clock when you wouldn't, pre-digital, allocate an "am" or "pm" to noon or midday, and thus there was genuine confusion about which day midnight belonged to, whereas it's pretty clear that if you write it as 0000 it is the start of a day and if you write it as 2400 it's the end of one.

 

[Gaelan]

And not a single programmer or computer code can rectify this?

There's literally dozens of systems built around a timetable format that assumes "0000" carries a special meaning, making it impossible to indicate 0000 arrivals/departures. You'd need to change TOPS and TRUST, every journey planner, every ticket retailer, all the customer information systems (including on-board software on many trains!), quite possibly the software TOCs use for planning timetables and diagrams…

You'd need to standardize a new timetable format that distinguishes "0000" from "never", then each of these systems would need to be modified to understand the new format, then test the new systems, then perform the rollout in a coordinated fashion, making sure nothing is forgotten about and breaks as a result. Realistically, this is going to take months, especially because deadlines keep getting pushed back as you try to coordinate between a dozen companies all with much more pressing priorities.

Doable? Sure. But a huge effort for essentially zero gain. The one real issue here (difficulty in timetabling) could likely be solved more cheaply by modifying timetabling software to automatically insert allowances to avoid midnight.

 

[dosxuk]

Regardless of whether computers could be made to cope with 0000 as a departure time (they can) - many many people have issues with those times and knowing which day they refer to, and even more people have issues with knowing whether 12am is in the middle of the day or the middle of the night.

It's far easier to just avoid the times completely and make it clear to (pretty much) everyone. That this also means we don't have to go and fix an iceberg of computers is just a bonus.

This avoidance of 0000 in schedules is common across many industries for the same confusion reasons - it just makes everything clearer - and often has nothing to do with any computers. For example, UK broadcast for many years ran their schedules as 06:00:00-29:59:59, indeed many channels even today will have a new schedule item start at exactly 0600 each day.

 

[Haywain]

Today's modern computer tech

The problem is with TRUST and TOPS, and neither of those come remotely close to being "modern computer tech" as they date from the 1970s.

 

[jfowkes]

And not a single programmer or computer code can rectify this?

You might be astounded at the number of modern industries that still massively rely on legacy computing systems from the 70's and 80's. Airline bookings, banking, no doubt a load of others. These kinds of software systems are actually a messy tangle of several different fragile systems sitting on an ancient radioactive foundation that we've largely forgotten how to maintain.

That's not a system you want to mess with if you don't absolutely have to.

 

[mrcheek]

Bizarrely, as I started reading this thread, "Dont Stop Believing" came on the radio. The only place you will ever find a midnight train!

 

[BrianW]

Regardless of whether computers could be made to cope with 0000 as a departure time (they can) - many many people have issues with those times and knowing which day they refer to, and even more people have issues with knowing whether 12am is in the middle of the day or the middle of the night.

It's far easier to just avoid the times completely and make it clear to (pretty much) everyone. That this also means we don't have to go and fix an iceberg of computers is just a bonus.

This avoidance of 0000 in schedules is common across many industries for the same confusion reasons - it just makes everything clearer - and often has nothing to do with any computers. For example, UK broadcast for many years ran their schedules as 06:00:00-29:59:59, indeed many channels even today will have a new schedule item start at exactly 0600 each day.

You might be astounded at the number of modern industries that still massively rely on legacy computing systems from the 70's and 80's. Airline bookings, banking, no doubt a load of others. These kinds of software systems are actually a messy tangle of several different fragile systems sitting on an ancient radioactive foundation that we've largely forgotten how to maintain.

That's not a system you want to mess with if you don't absolutely have to.

If it ain't broke ...

I have more of a problem with such as 'from midnight on Tuesday'- 'from' suggests midnight is the start of Tuesday; or should in be the other end of the day??

Similarly, though hopefully a problem for fewer folk, what happens when clocks change BST/GMT - are there two 02.00?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Similarly, though hopefully a problem for fewer folk, what happens when clocks change BST/GMT - are there two 02.00?

There are of course relatively few trains affected, though there is an 0200 RRB departure from Euston on a Saturday night which would be affected. I seem to recall it departs at the first 0200 and as such runs early once the clocks go back (the slowest one doesn't reach MKC until nearly 0500). I don't know what it does when the clocks go forward, when there isn't an 0200 at all, it goes straight from 0159 to 0300. I'm sure there are old threads on it.

Of course it's not just 0200 that's duplicated/lost, it's 0200 to 0259.

 

[jfollows]

You might be astounded at the number of modern industries that still massively rely on legacy computing systems from the 70's and 80's. Airline bookings, banking, no doubt a load of others. These kinds of software systems are actually a messy tangle of several different fragile systems sitting on an ancient radioactive foundation that we've largely forgotten how to maintain.

That's not a system you want to mess with if you don't absolutely have to.

My bank's actions repeatedly remind me of this! They work but they're a mess and sometimes cause me annoyance and inconvenience although not - yet - loss of money in the end!

 

[XAM2175]

But as 2400 is not a real time, surely 0000 is the same day as 0001?

The differentiation, is that 2400 is the midnight at the end of a day whereas 0000 is the midnight at the start of a day. For example, 2400 on Tuesday and 0000 on Wednesday are the same time. It's sometimes 'useful' in circumstances where you're scheduling something in the early hours of the morning but want to make it totally clear that it 'belongs' to the day before. Taken to extremes in a public transport example (and as was mentioned in passing earlier in the thread), a railway day could be described as running from 0430 to 2829.

 

[SargeNpton]

There are of course relatively few trains affected, though there is an 0200 RRB departure from Euston on a Saturday night which would be affected. I seem to recall it departs at the first 0200 and as such runs early once the clocks go back (the slowest one doesn't reach MKC until nearly 0500). I don't know what it does when the clocks go forward, when there isn't an 0200 at all, it goes straight from 0159 to 0300. I'm sure there are old threads on it.

Of course it's not just 0200 that's duplicated/lost, it's 0200 to 0259.

It's 0100-0159 that is duplicated when the clocks go back in October, and the same that is lost when they forward in March.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's 0100-0159 that is duplicated when the clocks go back in October, and the same that is lost when they forward in March.

So it is! The original post stating there being two 0200s fooled me!

 

[jfowkes]

Having just said that you don't want to mess with complex legacy systems, I am completely in favour of abolishing the concept of daylight savings time.

 

[VioletEclipse]

Having just said that you don't want to mess with complex legacy systems, I am completely in favour of abolishing the concept of daylight savings time.

As far as I'm aware the EU voted to abolish it many years ago, but hasn't actually done so.

 

[70014IronDuke]

My father, who was in the army in WWII, told me about 60 years ago that the military always avoid timing operations for 0000 or 2400 to avoid confusion over what day they refer to. I'm sure this was not because of the limitations of any computer system.

More than just this - at least accoding to my father - he told me 137 years ago that the military (British, or RAF at least) the service had no legal control over you from 23.59 - 00.01.

I have absolutely no idea if this is true, in fact, I doubt it is, but it's what he believed, not that he tried to scarper off base for the less than two minutes around midnight

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Apr 2023 ==

As far as I'm aware the EU voted to abolish it many years ago, but hasn't actually done so.

I doubt the EU voted to abolish "daylight saving time" as that is a N American term - unless they have officially adopted the term.

 

[Llandudno]

I know it’s a bus service but..

Hulley’s have just introduced a new bus service numbered 170a according to the Derbyshire CC website departs at:

0000 Matlock - Bakewell - Baslow. (Operates 7 days per week so I guess no confusion to actual days)

 

[Tom]

Think the reasons have been covered at length for 0000 - but to clean something up 0000H can be and is used for WTT times including departures and arrivals from time to time.

 

[zwk500]

Think the reasons have been covered at length for 0000 - but to clean something up 0000H can be and is used for WTT times including departures and arrivals from time to time.

it shouldn't be used on departures because it rounds down to 0000, but an 0000h arrival is fine because it rounds up to 0001. It's fine on passes (which may be in the 'dep' column on the NR export) as they don't round for public times.

 

[Tom]

I think the last time I saw a 0000H departure it was rounded up to 0001 on public! That particular scenario of rounding up isn’t particularly unusual for that operator from what I recall when I saw it, either.

 

[Western Sunset]

Bizarrely, as I started reading this thread, "Dont Stop Believing" came on the radio. The only place you will ever find a midnight train!

Was it raining gum balls, too?

 

[zwk500]

I think the last time I saw a 0000H departure it was rounded up to 0001 on public! That particular scenario of rounding up isn’t particularly unusual for that operator from what I recall when I saw it, either.

It's entirely possible that operator chooses to bump the public time only rather than add 30 seconds adjustment and then use minus 30 seconds at the next TIPLOC (which IIRC is what's meant to happen in the TPRs, but there are a number of places with very short distances between stations where the use of adjustment can't be recovered for several station calls after).

 

[snowball]

But as 2400 is not a real time, surely 0000 is the same day as 0001?

The army doesn't rely on such obscure arguments.

 

[Annetts key]

And not a single programmer or computer code can rectify this?

As computers don’t actually count internally in decimal numbers (even if they appear to), this is just a human thing. Computers internally use binary numbers. Hence have absolutely no problem with zero.

However, someone somewhere decided that 00:00 has a special meaning. And that has become the standard… So now fixing it is too much like hard work, so it sits in the “too difficult box”.

Regardless of whether computers could be made to cope with 0000 as a departure time (they can) - many many people have issues with those times and knowing which day they refer to, and even more people have issues with knowing whether 12am is in the middle of the day or the middle of the night.

I really don’t understand how people can have such difficultly. 23:59:59 is the last second of a (24 hour) day. 00:00:00 is the start of a (24 hour) day. Hence if you don’t include the seconds, 23:59 is the last minute of the day and 00:00 is still the start of the next day.

Hence 23:59 on Monday ticks over to 00:00 on Tuesday.

People don’t get confused when watching their own digital clocks or watches…

This avoidance of 0000 in schedules is common across many industries for the same confusion reasons - it just makes everything clearer - and often has nothing to do with any computers. For example, UK broadcast for many years ran their schedules as 06:00:00-29:59:59, indeed many channels even today will have a new schedule item start at exactly 0600 each day.

Don’t go letting the management know about a 29:59:59 day, I want more time off, not more time at work!

Having just said that you don't want to mess with complex legacy systems, I am completely in favour of abolishing the concept of daylight savings time.

I would love for the twice yearly clock changes (British Summer Time/to/from/GMT) to be ditched. But here is not the place for that discussion. As there is an existing topic elsewhere about it.

 

[jfollows]

As computers don’t actually count internally in decimal numbers (even if they appear to), this is just a human thing. Computers internally use binary numbers. Hence have absolutely no problem with zero.

To get off topic, why not, IBM mainframes do count in decimal if you want them to (https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/i/7.3?topic=type-packed-decimal-format). Binary is a lot faster but decimal is probably used a lot in banking. Of course they're still binary 1s and 0s in the end too, just in a different arrangement. Leads to the ZAP assembler instruction - zero and add packed.

 

[thenorthern]

As others have said the military communications 00:00 is generally avoided as it's not known which day it's referring to, not sure if that is the case with the railways though.

Doesn't the railway "day" start at 04:30 and not 00:00 though?

 

[Class 170101]

NR's planning systems don't like 00:00 either. Indeed in the Train Planning Rules it is stated that 00:00 must not be used

 

[Annetts key]

Doesn't the railway "day" start at 04:30 and not 00:00 though?

Depends on which bit of the railway… when you work a night shift (say 22:00 to 06:00) when would you say your day started?

 

[Flange Squeal]

Bizarrely, as I started reading this thread, "Dont Stop Believing" came on the radio. The only place you will ever find a midnight train!

I’m not sure that’s entirely true - I heard that from Los Angeles, there is a Midnight Train to Georgia…