Are TOCs obliged to state the reason for a delay?

[BurtonM]

I used to wonder why there were so many 'trespass incidents' reported as reasons for delay, but I recently discovered that it's one of the cover terms for a suicide, as is 'emergency services dealing with an incident' which sometimes gets used in tandem. 'person being hit by a train' doesn't get used much any more.

 

[Horizon22]

'person being hit by a train' doesn't get used much any more.

That is best practice, in line with Railway Delivery Group and more importantly, Samaritans.

 

[saismee]

Occasionally a conspiracy comes up here about delay attribution and sometimes there are disputes sure, but ultimately its about accountability and checking trends and where possible making improvements.

I would say that the only true conspiracy theory is that "safety checks being made" usually means that it is something that the public should not be told. I've personally seen a train be delayed due to a "signal fault" which required armed police attendance, so passengers may not be quite as thrilled with accurate delay attribution as they might expect.

 

[800002]

I would say that the only true conspiracy theory is that "safety checks being made" usually means that it is something that the public should not be told. I've personally seen a train be delayed due to a "signal fault" which required armed police attendance, so passengers may not be quite as thrilled with accurate delay attribution as they might expect.

There is something to be said about giving too much information.
Safety concerns (however indirect they may be [they're not attending your train, granted, buts it's it always best to avoid mass fear /panic]) should still trump the need to say what is actually going on.

 

[Horizon22]

I would say that the only true conspiracy theory is that "safety checks being made" usually means that it is something that the public should not be told. I've personally seen a train be delayed due to a "signal fault" which required armed police attendance, so passengers may not be quite as thrilled with accurate delay attribution as they might expect.

I was referring to the "back end" delay attribution that controllers, performance teams and TDAs do as opposed to the "front-end" attributable reasons for customer information purposes. They are not really linked.

 

[Falcon1200]

The one I dislike is "Due to congestion" because it means nothing at all.

IIRC When Trust Delay Attribution first started, many years ago, there was a Code OA - Congestion, which was a handy get-out when we didn't immediately know the cause of the delay! But its use was soon knocked on the head and the Code abolished.

Information controllers aren’t going to trawl back through the route every time this happens to search for root cause,

Unless Attribution is behind the delay, unless sub-threshold, will surely have been attributed to something? The train which annoyed me was arriving at Birmingham New St but had been delayed at Watford Jc!

 

[AlterEgo]

I used to wonder why there were so many 'trespass incidents' reported as reasons for delay, but I recently discovered that it's one of the cover terms for a suicide, as is 'emergency services dealing with an incident' which sometimes gets used in tandem. 'person being hit by a train' doesn't get used much any more.

Trespass incident means trespass incident.

Emergency services dealing with an incident is the euphemism for a person being actually hit by a train.

 

[Falcon1200]

Emergency services dealing with an incident is the euphemism for a person being actually hit by a train.

Although, do some Operators not still say 'person hit by a train'? But without a specific location being provided, just between two places a fair distance apart. It has always been my experience, both as rail staff and passenger, that people are more understanding when an incident is described as such.

 

[AlterEgo]

Although, do some Operators not still say 'person hit by a train'? But without a specific location being provided, just between two places a fair distance apart. It has always been my experience, both as rail staff and passenger, that people are more understanding when an incident is described as such.

They shouldn't be, for the reason @Horizon22 gave earlier.

 

[Falcon1200]

They shouldn't be, for the reason @Horizon22 gave earlier.

Fair enough, thanks. I wonder whether any statistics, showing the effect of how such incidents are described, are available?

 

[Horizon22]

Unless Attribution is behind the delay, unless sub-threshold, will surely have been attributed to something? The train which annoyed me was arriving at Birmingham New St but had been delayed at Watford Jc!

But again, for a CIS controller / customer service controller that might mean undertaking a replay, then trawling through TRUST to find the relevant attribution (if it has even be looked at yet), all of which takes a lot of time when they could and indeed be doing other tasks as opposed to just a few clicks of a button.

As you say it could be several steps back, especially for freight or an intercity train. And sometimes even if you do all that, there just isn't a clear reason.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2026 ==

Fair enough, thanks. I wonder whether any statistics, showing the effect of how such incidents are described, are available?

It's obviously hard to know. But the advice is always:

1. Don't say exactly where it is (so say A-C instead of B).
2. Don't say "hit by a train".
3. Be mindful of the welfare of staff & passengers witness to the event early.

 

[saismee]

Don't say "hit by a train".

GA didn't get the memo? It has always been described as this in my experience.

 

[Horizon22]

GA didn't get the memo? It has always been described as this in my experience.

No they often do and I believe were roundly admonished for that... Especially if they share the route with an operator that does adhere to the guidance (Overground and Elizabeth line).

There's extra complication though as TfL tend to use "casualty on the track".

 

[Adrian1980uk]

No they often do and I believe were roundly admonished for that... Especially if they share the route with an operator that does adhere to the guidance (Overground and Elizabeth line).

There's extra complication though as TfL tend to use "casualty on the track".

It's often a case of there's not a right or wrong answer, someone getting hit by a train is a fact and happens far too often on the network unfortunately.

One of my pet hates is always when there's an incident, the first press report is 'passengers are complaining there's no information’, no one ever thinks there's no information to give!

 

[Javelin_55]

IIRC When Trust Delay Attribution first started, many years ago, there was a Code OA - Congestion, which was a handy get-out when we didn't immediately know the cause of the delay! But its use was soon knocked on the head and the Code abolished.

OA still exists, but it's now 'Regulation decision made with best endeavours', which sounds like more or less the same thing as 'congestion'

 

[RailwayRookie]

OA still exists, but it's now 'Regulation decision made with best endeavours', which sounds like more or less the same thing as 'congestion'

Congestion is more of a "things went wrong somewhere, and now all of the late trains are fighting for space with the on time trains and the space on the infrastructure is finite so no amount of regulation will save us" deal. Its mostly coded as a YO reactionary delay now.

Best endeavours is there as a way of not beaning the signaller with a 'bad' regulating decision when their hands are tied or the bigger picture means it is actually the right decision to make at the time.

 

[saismee]

Congestion is more of a "things went wrong somewhere, and now all of the late trains are fighting for space with the on time trains and the space on the infrastructure is finite so no amount of regulation will save us" deal.

Trouble is, the congestion is the symptom of delays, not the cause.

 

[RailwayRookie]

Trouble is, the congestion is the symptom of delays, not the cause.

Arguably if the root cause was a Swan in front of a freight train 200 miles away. Its pretty redundant information for the traveller.

"This train is delayed due to congestion" is probably more helpful if you're stood on a platform waiting for it as you know its coming but its in a queue.

I know the anarok loves to have all of the minutiae but outside of a process improvement environment if often serves little purpose to the layman.

 

[Lockwood]

Arguably if the root cause was a Swan in front of a freight train 200 miles away. Its pretty redundant information for the traveller.

Which type of swan?

Why was it there in the first place?

Debate over RSPB or RSPCA.

Contact numbers for local swan rescue.

Countless Hot Fuzz references.

Comments about the royals eating swan.

More demands for the type and age of swan.

 

[Falcon1200]

Arguably if the root cause was a Swan in front of a freight train 200 miles away. Its pretty redundant information for the traveller.

But why not simply say 'Animals on the line'. That is surely enough for most people, including me, most definitely a self-confessed anorak! Saying congestion alone means nothing to anyone.

 

[The exile]

But why not simply say 'Animals on the line'. That is surely enough for most people, including me, most definitely a self-confessed anorak! Saying congestion alone means nothing to anyone.

The thing is that by the time the Voyager that was held up behind a freight train having a stand-off with a swan in East Lothian has reached Plymouth having got later and later and is now holding up a down Penzance which needs its platform, no-one knows about the swan.

 

[Class73Electro]

Saturday had an interesting experience. Got to Staines (heading for Windsor and Eton Riverside) to be told the train would be delayed for "some time" (later updated to service cancelled) due to a tree on the line at Wraysbury. When we got off the train, the announcement on the platform said it was due to a broken down train.

A few confused looks from other passengers!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Saturday had an interesting experience. Got to Staines (heading for Windsor and Eton Riverside) to be told the train would be delayed for "some time" (later updated to service cancelled) due to a tree on the line at Wraysbury. When we got off the train, the announcement on the platform said it was due to a broken down train.

A few confused looks from other passengers!

Surely this is a case of a ‘new’ incident.
Stage 1: Previous train ‘stuck’ on line but reason not yet input.
Stage 2: it has become clear that driver of the ‘stuck’ train has reported hitting a tree (and is probably examining the train).
Stage 3: Driver of ‘stuck’ train had confirmed that the tree has broken an air pipe/ ripped off all shoes on one side or whatever and train is completely immobilised, blocking the line.
Clarity had finally emerged.

 

[The North Briton]

While purchasing a ticket at Hebden Bridge yesterday afternoon, I noticed on the departure screen that a Leeds-Manchester Victoria semi-fast service was reported as being 8 minutes late due to 'maintaining a customer connection'. That's certainly a new one in me. Is the benign influence of Great British Railways already being felt here in Yorkshire?

LNER seem to be using this a lot lately, even for delays which occur en route, which suggests a fundamental misunderstanding about when this reason should be used.

 

[Falcon1200]

no-one knows about the swan.

They should because all related delays will have been attributed to the trespassing swan!

 

[speedy1]

LNER seem to be using this a lot lately, even for delays which occur en route, which suggests a fundamental misunderstanding about when this reason should be used.

It's silly season currently (school holidays). Curtailed services, toilets out of order, 'interesting' delay/cancellation reasons (a cadaver being 'trespass' last week was an interesting one...more trains needing repair than usual...problem at depot)

Hopefully normal service will resume in September

 

[andy33gmail]

Because the other train was behind a late running train in front of it?. I'll get my coat.

I can see why they gave up on the circle line. The announcement would be of infinite length

 

[The North Briton]

It's silly season currently (school holidays). Curtailed services, toilets out of order, 'interesting' delay/cancellation reasons (a cadaver being 'trespass' last week was an interesting one...more trains needing repair than usual...problem at depot)

Hopefully normal service will resume in September

For a moment, I thought you were suggesting LNER’s JourneyCheck information was compiled by schoolchildren