Are TOCs obliged to state the reason for a delay?

[321362]

Depending on the TOC, it seems to vary hugely, with some - like Southeastern - giving a reason for even just a 5 minute delay, whereas I've seen no reason given for much larger delays on London Overground and Chiltern. Is there any kind of stipulation that they have to state the cause if it's above a certain threshold, or is it completely up to the TOC?

Many thanks.

 

[AlterEgo]

Are you talking about coded delay reasons in the railway data, or front line customer communications from guards or drivers?

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Depending on the TOC, it seems to vary hugely, with some - like Southeastern - giving a reason for even just a 5 minute delay, whereas I've seen no reason given for much larger delays on London Overground and Chiltern. Is there any kind of stipulation that they have to state the cause if it's above a certain threshold, or is it completely up to the TOC?

Many thanks.

As far as I’m aware there’s only one info controller on shift for Chiltern covering their whole network so could simply be a workload issue

 

[D6130]

While purchasing a ticket at Hebden Bridge yesterday afternoon, I noticed on the departure screen that a Leeds-Manchester Victoria semi-fast service was reported as being 8 minutes late due to 'maintaining a customer connection'. That's certainly a new one in me. Is the benign influence of Great British Railways already being felt here in Yorkshire?

 

[saismee]

While purchasing a ticket at Hebden Bridge yesterday afternoon, I noticed on the departure screen that a Leeds-Manchester Victoria semi-fast service was reported as being 8 minutes late due to 'maintaining a customer connection'. That's certainly a new one in me. Is the benign influence of Great British Railways already being felt here in Yorkshire?

This certainly happens occasionally but is usually attributed to the same reason as whichever train its being held for, rather than this special one.

 

[CyrusWuff]

As far as I’m aware there’s only one info controller on shift for Chiltern covering their whole network so could simply be a workload issue

If it's a service starting from Marylebone, the Announcer there should be putting out delay messages when required.

 

[DimTim]

I noticed this in platform announcements on Wednesday, at Leeds, Carlisle & Doncaster. After announcing the xx.xx to yyyy is running 10 minutes late, this is due to zzz. I heard late running preceding train or unable to join (2 x 5car Azumas on Skipton train)

 

[dk1]

You can make anything up really. Operational issues covers most things.

 

[Mattplans]

You can make anything up really. Operational issues covers most things.

A bit like when TfL will say there are Minor Delays due to "train cancellations"

 

[dk1]

A bit like when TfL will say there are Minor Delays due to "train cancellations"

More or less. It’s a reason.

 

[Sakuradori]

While purchasing a ticket at Hebden Bridge yesterday afternoon, I noticed on the departure screen that a Leeds-Manchester Victoria semi-fast service was reported as being 8 minutes late due to 'maintaining a customer connection'. That's certainly a new one in me. Is the benign influence of Great British Railways already being felt here in Yorkshire?

I've also seen this one used for things like a train being delayed by boarding/unboarding a passenger with mobility issues, etc

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

I'd love them to give more accurate reasons sometimes. "Delayed due to a passenger in the toilet hitting the alarm button with their elbow."

 

[Horizon22]

If it's a service starting from Marylebone, the Announcer there should be putting out delay messages when required.

Again as @AlterEgo states are we talking about manual announcements or data on the CIS or other journey planners?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2026 ==

A bit like when TfL will say there are Minor Delays due to "train cancellations"

Correct. Read that as “not enough drivers” or “not enough trains”. The equivalent of the NR reason of “a shortage of train crew”, but I believe there’s a union understanding to not use that on TfL.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2026 ==

You can make anything up really. Operational issues covers most things.

Within reason. There are defined Darwin delay codes which you can easily find online (from 2024).

Again a manual announcement might be a variation on this or not the strict root cause.

To answer the OP, generally the RDG and industry aims to have an attribution for anything over 5 minutes delayed. This is of course the aim and workload (or just sheer laziness) is often a factor if this is being missed.

 

[Falcon1200]

For me, the most annoying delay reason (or rather non-reason) is the one used yesterday for an Avanti service, 'delayed due to a late running train in front of this one'. Why was the other train late?!!

 

[davetheguard]

For me, the most annoying delay reason (or rather non-reason) is the one used yesterday for an Avanti service, 'delayed due to a late running train in front of this one'. Why was the other train late?!!

Because the other train was behind a late running train in front of it?. I'll get my coat.

 

[Lockwood]

For me, the most annoying delay reason (or rather non-reason) is the one used yesterday for an Avanti service, 'delayed due to a late running train in front of this one'. Why was the other train late?!!

A late running train in front of it.

 

[dk1]

A late running train in front of it.

Exactly. Why do some people need to know the ins & outs of a ducks backside?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Exactly. Why do some people need to know the ins & outs of a ducks backside?

It's always a bit of a nonsense anyway unless there's a genuine issue, often it's to find an excuse for 'we've messed up' i.e. not enough train crew/trains/missed problems in maintaining trains or infrastructure, the risk is always too much detail leads to incorrect information anyway.

I'm not saying everything but most infrastructure or train failures are avoidable depending on how much money you have to spend on maintenance.

 

[saismee]

For me, the most annoying delay reason (or rather non-reason) is the one used yesterday for an Avanti service, 'delayed due to a late running train in front of this one'. Why was the other train late?!!

Could be anything. In my region we get this a lot and it's usually a speed restriction. The trouble is that if you try to attribute the delay reason to the actual initial cause then you could mislead passengers. A delay due to another late train means your train is still definitely coming, whereas "Due to a train/signal fault" could mean job stopped.

The one I dislike is "Due to congestion" because it means nothing at all.

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

Exactly. Why do some people need to know the ins & outs of a ducks backside?

There is a line between vague and telling people a blow by blow.

Could be anything. In my region we get this a lot and it's usually a speed restriction. The trouble is that if you try to attribute the delay reason to the actual initial cause then you could mislead passengers. A delay due to another late train means your train is still definitely coming, whereas "Due to a train/signal fault" could mean job stopped.

The one I dislike is "Due to congestion" because it means nothing at all.

I do laugh down here Metro will say trains are delayed due to congestion at Town Hall. It's a 2 platform station with 2 lines. Congestion is basically a train running late blocking up the ones behind it.

 

[Gareth1990]

Again as @AlterEgo states are we talking about manual announcements or data on the CIS or other journey planners?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2026 ==



Correct. Read that as “not enough drivers” or “not enough trains”. The equivalent of the NR reason of “a shortage of train crew”, but I believe there’s a union understanding to not use that on TfL.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2026 ==



Within reason. There are defined Darwin delay codes which you can easily find online (from 2024).

Again a manual announcement might be a variation on this or not the strict root cause.

To answer the OP, generally the RDG and industry aims to have an attribution for anything over 5 minutes delayed. This is of course the aim and workload (or just sheer laziness) is often a factor if this is being missed.

Unions should not be dictating to TfL what information it chooses to give to passengers

 

[Bow Fell]

It's always a bit of a nonsense anyway unless there's a genuine issue, often it's to find an excuse for 'we've messed up' i.e. not enough train crew/trains/missed problems in maintaining trains or infrastructure, the risk is always too much detail leads to incorrect information anyway.

I'm not saying everything but most infrastructure or train failures are avoidable depending on how much money you have to spend on maintenance.

The problem is sometimes Control staff might be unaware of the root cause of the delay to the other train, especially if it’s another TOC’s train and there may be a number of issues that have caused the delay which is why “a late running train in front of this one” is used.

9 times out of 10 the truth will always be told, there is no incentive / reason to cover up the reason for a delayed train, I certainly have never come across this in my experience in a Control.

On the flip side, don’t forget we’ve also seen on the forum, users when the correct reason is given such “damage to the overhead electric line” for example that has delayed a train that doesn’t run under the wires, the first thing we see is “oh those control staff must be clueless, there’s no overhead wires there”. So unfortunately, you can’t win.

Regarding, delays on trains in the first place the simple answer is workload and the number of Customer Information Comtrollers there could be multiple incidents and it’s just not feasible to put delays on every train in Darwin, although you can trigger it through Darwin to automatically put delays on, however this is a duplicate of workload because it require creating a “route disruption” in both Tyrell and in Darwin.

 

[Horizon22]

For me, the most annoying delay reason (or rather non-reason) is the one used yesterday for an Avanti service, 'delayed due to a late running train in front of this one'. Why was the other train late?!!

Normally because that train was late and then that was caused by another late train etc.

Information controllers aren’t going to trawl back through the route every time this happens to search for root cause, particularly if it’s caused by a neighbouring TOC. It’s annoying but not really practical when you get into it.

 

[imagination]

"We apologise for the delay to this service. This is due to it taking longer than usual to establish why the train in front is running late."

 

[Horizon22]

Unions should not be dictating to TfL what information it chooses to give to passengers

Well I don't neccesarily disagree, but they've come up with this fudge of "train cancellations". Having a line being in Severe delays due to 'cancellations' just adds an extra level of ambiguity in my book, but this is my understanding of how it works.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2026 ==

The one I dislike is "Due to congestion" because it means nothing at all.

Yes but again sometimes you see no clear reason and occasionally it's "I have no idea why the signaller did/did not do X/Y/Z" and there's not really a delay reason for that!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2026 ==

I'm not saying everything but most infrastructure or train failures are avoidable depending on how much money you have to spend on maintenance.

My bold. Nearly everything is avoidable if you have an infinite pot of money!

 

[saismee]

Yes but again sometimes you see no clear reason and occasionally it's "I have no idea why the signaller did/did not do X/Y/Z" and there's not really a delay reason for that!

And it's one of those things that you probably shouldn't announce anyway!

 

[Snow1964]

In West Wiltshire (controlled by Westbury), sometimes get automated 'apologise for delay' with no reason, but sometimes have reasons appended, but if and when (after how long' reasons are added seems to be inconsistent.

But reasons are often vague, problem with the train, earlier delays, no driver available (basically they tell you what the effect is, never tell you what caused the problem in first place, or why it couldn't be solved in time).

It's sort of hollow apology waffle, because never add that they will try and do better in future

 

[800002]

The one I dislike is "Due to congestion" because it means nothing at all.

Ahh, the good old "too many trains rocking up in the wrong place at the same time" 'excuse'.

The problem is sometimes Control staff might be unaware of the root cause of the delay to the other train, especially if it’s another TOC’s train and there may be a number of issues that have caused the delay which is why “a late running train in front of this one” is used.

So yes.
Quite often when incidents occur it can be quite some time (hours or the next day) until they are accurately attributed in the system.

You train being late because of 'A late running train in front' is usually a secondary / knock on delay (system wise) to the actual incident / delay affecting the original service.
These can happily sit in a 'management delay' pot for days until sorted and attributed properly if there are not the required level of Network Rail staff in the signalling / control centre to attributed. For all intense and purposes, when the perverbial is hitting the fan and there is no one to manage the attribution, the system doesn't know the cause and so it's left to toc control to update their info system(s) as they see fit.

[I, of course, may be talking complete rubbish].

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...9 times out of 10 the truth will always be told, there is no incentive / reason to cover up the reason for a delayed train...

Is delay attribution no longer a thing in the modern railway?

 

[800002]

Is delay attribution no longer a thing in the modern railway?

Um, yes (it is).
But increasingly not by the people who used to do it (on the day / as it was happening).

First level attribution is likely to be very low (in either level of correctness or % undertaken on the day) where the staff are either no longer there or reduced coverage is in effect.

 

[Horizon22]

And it's one of those things that you probably shouldn't announce anyway!

Quite. Many a choice used word used in a control room watching CCF!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2026 ==

Is delay attribution no longer a thing in the modern railway?

Of course it is, and will continue to be under GBR. But it's a performance metric, analysis and improvement tool more than anything else. Occasionally a conspiracy comes up here about delay attribution and sometimes there are disputes sure, but ultimately its about accountability and checking trends and where possible making improvements.

Also formal delay attribution isn't the same thing as public-facing delay reasons and customer information.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2026 ==

But reasons are often vague, problem with the train, earlier delays, no driver available (basically they tell you what the effect is, never tell you what caused the problem in first place, or why it couldn't be solved in time).

Because those things are much more complex and structural as opposed to a simple one-liner. The CIS controller isn't there to write an essay!