Are the Electrostars showing 'wear'?

[WizCastro197]

To avoid starting off-topic discussion in the Class 769 (GWR) Introduction thread, I've began a new thread to discuss whether the Electrostars (357/375/376/377/378/387) are showing 'wear' or if they are 'old'.

Well they are showing wear anyway

In post 26 the electro star trains are getting old now

From these posts, it is unclear which class of Electrostar the member is referring to, as there are so many of them. However, I do believe it is wrong to say they are all showing wear even though some of the oldest ones aren't yet, thanks to extensive refurbishment carried out by Southeastern/Eversholt on the 375s just a few years ago. The Southern 377s are all scheduled to be refurbished by 2025, although not as extensively, with new reading lights, improved PIS (passenger information system) font and new information screens being the main highlights, except no new seat cover. Of course there are the 376s who definitely do show wear, not just because of the large amount of passengers these trains face on a day to day basis, but because no refurbishment has been scheduled since 2004 when they were introduced.

On the topic of age, I also believe this statement is again misleading, as the oldest ones introduced in 1999 are now approaching half life or are over that slightly and the newer 387s have not even has a quarter of their life complete yet.

What are your thoughts? Surely wear must be exacerbated by the amount of passengers that use these units per day?

 

[CBlue]

Great Northern 387s seem a bit scruffy inside and out, not sure what all that black/brown gunk is that seems to get stuck to the front but it seems like the trainwash can't get it off. Seats inside have a few slightly bare patches where people brush them a lot but given the cheap and nasty fabric they're covered in its hardly a surprise....however they're certainly not old and far from life expired.

Been on one or two 357s in the past year and they seemed in decent enough shape for their age.

 

[Minstral25]

All Southern Electrostars are going through a cleaning/refurbishment program at the moment at Selhurst. This is normal and the process will make those that are a bit worn look good again. Personally I use them regularly and find them in pretty good condition considering the usage they get. The older versions are only 17-20 years old and have plenty of life left.

 

[yorksrob]

The South Eastern ones are still looking fairly tidy at the moment.

 

[WizCastro197]

All Southern Electrostars are going through a cleaning/refurbishment program at the moment at Selhurst. This is normal and the process will make those that are a bit worn look good again. Personally I use them regularly and find them in pretty good condition considering the usage they get. The older versions are only 17-20 years old and have plenty of life left.

I agree, apparently all meant to be finished by 2025, on the basis of at least 1 unit per week. I use them regularly between Redhill and Victoria and they are lovely trains and I really don't see and signs of complete wear. The oldest one now is 24 now, which seems rather crazy when you think how modern they look.

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Been on one or two 357s in the past year and they seemed in decent enough shape for their age.

I've never been on a 357, I can imagine they are kept well enough and are suitable for their services

The South Eastern ones are still looking fairly tidy at the moment.

Good, but that must be really the 375s only surely? 376s are a different story!

 

[yorksrob]

I agree, apparently all meant to be finished by 2025, on the basis of at least 1 unit per week. I use them regularly between Redhill and Victoria and they are lovely trains and I really don't see and signs of complete wear. The oldest one now is 24 now, which seems rather crazy when you think how modern they look.

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I've never been on a 357, I can imagine they are kept well enough and are suitable for their services

Good, but that must be really the 375s only surely? 376s are a different story!

The 'Southern' interior ones probably need a refresh.

 

[WizCastro197]

The 'Southern' interior ones probably need a refresh.

I agree, although they are getting a partial one, new reading lights and improved readability on PIS screens is really all we are getting, no new seat covers no new carpets. It is just a small one that is going to take 2 years just to bring them slightly up to speed.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The ones that run under AC with the dirty cab fronts are most likely to be as a result of carbon deposits from the overhead wires(?)

The original Class 375s on Southeastern entered service around 2002/3 from memory and they look very good
Most of the 377s I travel on look okay

 

[Kite159]

When the 720s eventually enter traffic on C2C, I suspect the 357s will have a similar deep clean/refurbishment similar to the Southern 377s (and 375s).

 

[Minstral25]

The 'Southern' interior ones probably need a refresh.

Assume you mean 377/5's which are part of the current refresh program. Personally I find the Southern interiors quite good.

 

[WizCastro197]

Assume you mean 377/5's which are part of the current refresh program. Personally I find the Southern interiors quite good.

I think @yorksrob means the Southeastern 377/5s should be refreshed into Southeastern interior, unless I’ve implied this wrong. Whilst we are on this topic, why are the SE377s painted in a more purple blue in comparison to the 375s?
But there is/isn’t a plan for them to go so Southern anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

Assume you mean 377/5's which are part of the current refresh program. Personally I find the Southern interiors quite good.

I think @yorksrob means the Southeastern 377/5s should be refreshed into Southeastern interior, unless I’ve implied this wrong. But there is/isn’t a plan for them to go so Southern anyway.

The ones with the green upholstery need it as opposed to those with the blue upholstery (apologies for getting technical )

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The South Eastern ones are still looking fairly tidy at the moment.

Yes, it’s probably down to the lack of refurbishment that’s depreciating the Southern Electrostars not yet to have the refresh. The redone /4s look quite fresh, and the 375s were of course brushed up not long ago.

I maintain my opinion that the original Connex interiors with Southern seating of most 377/1 and 377/3 look exceptionally dated compared to the others though. /2, /4, /5 and later /1s have a far more modern interior design scheme, with subtle pale blue replacing the very dated cream colour of the walls, the usual metal lower panelling left silver and polished (rather than having cheap dark blue paint thrown over it), and a more modern rectangular PIS rather than the old-fashioned oval. There’s other differences too, such as grab-rails.

 

[WizCastro197]

Yes, it’s probably down to the lack of refurbishment that’s depreciating the Southern Electrostars not yet to have the refresh. The redone /4s look quite fresh, and the 375s were of course brushed up not long ago.

The 377/4s could look more refreshed if seat covers were replaced which unfortunately doesn’t appear to have happened.

 

[Minstral25]

The ones with the green upholstery need it as opposed to those with the blue upholstery (apologies for getting technical )

But the green upholstery is fine especially when they are returned to Southern in 202...something.

Seem to recall these are part of the Southern Fleet but have never been returned since being loaned to Thameslink. I think Selhurst still maintains them too. Which is why I think I saw somewhere that these are included in the current refresh program. Someone with better knowledge could confirm

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

But the green upholstery is fine especially when they are returned to Southern in 202...something.

Seem to recall these are part of the Southern Fleet but have never been returned since being loaned to Thameslink. I think Selhurst still maintains them too. Which is why I think I saw somewhere that these are included in the current refresh program. Someone with better knowledge could confirm

It’s very very gnarly on the 377/5s now though.

 

[yorksrob]

The ones on Victoria - Ashford Kent are in need of it.

 

[WizCastro197]

This page from RailAdvent seems to suggest 387s are also being done, Gatwick Express and Great Northern, but no mention of Southeastern 377/5s. What would they be refreshed into?

Alstom and Govia Thameslink Railway sign new £256m contract

Alstom and Govia Thameslink Railway has signed a new services contract worth around £256m.

www.railadvent.co.uk

The five-year programme will include trains from the Southern, Gatwick Express and Great Northern‘Electrostar’ fleets

214 of the Class 377 trains which run on the Southern Network between London, Surrey, Sussex and the south coast will be upgraded along with the Class 387s on the Great Northern and Gatwick Express routes

 

[GWVillager]

The 377/4s could look more refreshed if seat covers were replaced which unfortunately doesn’t appear to have happened.

I may be wrong but I believe the Southern refresh is including new seat covers, just of exactly the same design as the previous moquette. I travelled on some recently and the seat covers were clean and colourful and they looked as if they were put in yesterday. I simply refuse to believe they were the same ones originally installed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I may be wrong but I believe the Southern refresh is including new seat covers, just of exactly the same design as the previous moquette. I travelled on some recently and the seat covers were clean and colourful and they looked as if they were put in yesterday. I simply refuse to believe they were the same ones originally installed.

Yes, they lack the greyishness of the old seats that came from years of greasy dandruff-ridden hair rubbing against the headrest Showed up very clearly on red moquette 450 seat covers too.

 

[CR165022]

Whilst we are on this topic, why are the SE377s painted in a more purple blue in comparison to the 375s?

I think it's just the base purple from when they were with Thameslink

 

[WizCastro197]

I may be wrong but I believe the Southern refresh is including new seat covers, just of exactly the same design as the previous moquette. I travelled on some recently and the seat covers were clean and colourful and they looked as if they were put in yesterday. I simply refuse to believe they were the same ones originally installed.

They could've simply been cleaned and washed? Some of them even on the refreshed 377/4s are awfully worn out. If. they indeed have been replaced, then why didn't they take the opportunity to replace the sandpapery material they are encompassed in?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think it's just the base purple from when they were with Thameslink

Indeed it is, just like how the Class 170s with TfW remain with doors a slightly different shade of red to the rest of the fleet, because Greater Anglia’s livery was considered to be close enough to the original to generally go unnoticed, and its the same with the base dark purple being used in place of navy. It only really shows up when a 375 and 377/5 are alongside each other.

The 377/5 always looks much shinier too, though I don’t think the 375s are vinyled despite looking more faded and dirty (exactly how the vinyled GWR 800/0 does alongside painted 800/3 or 802)

 

[gabrielhj07]

I think some older members of the fleet are a little careworn, but nothing that a quick refresh can't sort out.

 

[NSE]

The 377/5’s have the base First Capital Connect purple from their days on the Thameslink route. It’s pretty similar to SE blue. But you can see the difference clearly when two sit next to each other. They are still GTR units but leased/loaned to SE (along with two/three /1’s, which are SN liveried but SE branded). They are all maintained at Selhurst. Most off peak week days you can see a couple of units there for that purpose. There is talk that they’re meant to be returning to SN operations (the /1’s may already have, I don’t know) to release the 313’s to Newport but hasn’t happened yet. To my knowledge, the /5’s have always belonged to SN/GTR but haven’t turned a wheel in SN service.

 

[WizCastro197]

I think some older members of the fleet are a little careworn, but nothing that a quick refresh can't sort out.

Which ones? The 376's are perhaps the oldest complete fleet that need it direly

 

[gabrielhj07]

Which ones? The 376's are perhaps the oldest complete fleet that need it direly

The 376s are just terrible, I use the 377s most often and I think that some of the older /1s could do with a bit of TLC. The refurbished ones are noticeably nicer.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

l(along with two/three /1’s, which are SN liveried but SE branded).

These returned immediately after 455 withdrawal

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The 376s are just terrible, I use the 377s most often and I think that some of the older /1s could do with a bit of TLC. The refurbished ones are noticeably nicer.

Yes, and I refer you to my observation about Connex spec interior vs Southern spec interior.

I maintain my opinion that the original Connex interiors just with Southern seating of most 377/1 and 377/3 look exceptionally dated compared to the others (entirely Southern interiors) though. /2, /4, /5 and later /1s have a far more modern interior design scheme, with subtle pale blue replacing the very dated cream colour of the walls, the usual metal lower panelling left silver and polished (rather than having cheap dark blue paint thrown over it), and a more modern rectangular PIS rather than the old-fashioned oval. There’s other differences too, such as grab-rails.

 

[WizCastro197]

These returned immediately after 455 withdrawal

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Yes, and I refer you to my observation about Connex spec interior vs Southern spec interior.

As 377/3s are the exception in terms of interior colouring, I wonder whether internal repainting/vinyling is to be included within in the upgrade?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

As 377/3s are the exception in terms of interior colouring, I wonder whether internal repainting/vinyling is to be included within in the upgrade?

Polite note: They’re not quite the exception alone. About two-thirds of the /1s also have this interior, and apparently some have already been upgraded and interior has not been touched. Shame, as they could have used this opportunity to bring them into line. The difference is hugely, hugely noticeable when you’re on board. The Connex spec ones have the strong BO smell too, unlike the later /1 and the /2 /4 /5s.

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This still from a YouTube video shows upgraded 377112 retaining the Connex-spec beige walls, circular PIS (with new font) and curved grab rails, but also a disgustingly dirty headrest suggesting @WizCastro197 was right after all in saying that they haven’t changed them?