Are Swiss trains genuinely reliable?

[NCT]

It'd be interesting to compare total track km vs vehicle km. I suspect the Swiss number will be higher.

 

[Austriantrain]

One factor that hasn't (I think - apologies if wrong) been mentioned is that Swiss main lines carry typically 1/2 to 2/3 the "InterCity" traffic of routes from London: the Zurich-Basel-Bern triangle through Olten carries 6-7 IC/IR trains per hour on each leg (one of which is the 1960s new line via Lenzburg, the other two significantly upgraded to allow the Taktfahrplan).
The EC/WC/GW main lines carry much more than that for a considerable way out of London. So far greater stress on infrastructure and far less leeway for recovery. They are much more like the DB routes through NRW which, even without neglect, have been congested for years.

That‘s true. However, many Main station entries and exits are of course much busier in Switzerland than some „point in the middle“, although of course the large amount of grade separation helps with this (so we are back to: Switzerland invests more in infrastructure). In addition, the traffic mix on many routes with a mixture of IC/IR, RE and S-Bahn, means that while the overall number of trains on a route might be limited, the line itself can very much be close to capacity.

Also, because of the Takt, trains to be very bunched together around the hub stations. You will have very intensive 10-15 Minutes and then a „Pause“. While that pause surely does help to recover, trains which do use it will be far from punctual. The punctuality statistics being what they are, that means that obviously, such a service recovery is not needed very often.

 

[bahnause]

Also, because of the Takt, trains to be very bunched together around the hub stations. You will have very intensive 10-15 Minutes and then a „Pause“. While that pause surely does help to recover, trains which do use it will be far from punctual. The punctuality statistics being what they are, that means that obviously, such a service recovery is not needed very often.

Due to high network utilisation, this recovery time at the hubs can hardly be utilised. Due to the limited number of usable train paths, it often does not make sense to continue the delayed train beyond a hub. Instead, the train journey is often terminated and a replacement train is used to cover the last section of the route on time. This also guarantees a punctual return journey, with passengers transferring from the replacement train back to the scheduled train.

 

[peteb]

In answer to the original post: Yes.

In over 40 years of international train travel I've never experienced a train cancellation in Switzerland (though I'm sure they must cancel some occasionally?), and the only serious delay (+30 minutes) was on a Munich to Zurich SBB High Speed train "delayed by line works in Germany, so it was late crossing into Switzerland", as the onboard announcements were keen to point out!

 

[DanielB]

In over 40 years of international train travel I've never experienced a train cancellation in Switzerland (though I'm sure they must cancel some occasionally?), and the only serious delay (+30 minutes) was on a Munich to Zurich SBB High Speed train "delayed by line works in Germany

Of course they happen. I've, only once though, managed to claim a delay repay from Interrail for a domestic journey in Switzerland (so more than an hour delay).

Started with a breakdown of the train between Interlaken and Luzern (resulted in a 20 minute delay) and after arriving in Luzern I found my next connection to Zürich cancelled due to what @bahnause described: the incoming train in Luzern was terminated early due to being late. In that case there was no replacement train however, so I had to wait for the next one as there were no practical other routes I could take.

 

[NCT]

I had an EC8 departing Basel 20 minutes late, and the station announcement at Offenburg very excitedly announced the delay as from 'aussland'.

 

[eldomtom2]

Such as? Our national culture pervades all through society, from the actions of the general public, the railway staff, the railway management, the electorate, the Government they elect and the civil Service they don't. If you think 'the railways' as in their staff of all grades can 'change passenger behaviour' to have a meaningful effect on train punctuality in our national culture then lets hear how it can be done.

My concern with your point is twofold. The first is that you haven't presented a causal mechanism for how "national culture" influences railway reliability. The second is that this is an extremely fatalistic attitude that seems to view the possibility of positive change as impossible, as we're locked into what the national culture gives us.

 

[rvdborgt]

In over 40 years of international train travel I've never experienced a train cancellation in Switzerland (though I'm sure they must cancel some occasionally?), and the only serious delay (+30 minutes) was on a Munich to Zurich SBB High Speed train "delayed by line works in Germany, so it was late crossing into Switzerland", as the onboard announcements were keen to point out!

In almost 30 years (with often multiple visites per year) I've experienced 1 domestic cancellation (SBB) and 2 domestic delays of ~25 minutes that broke a connection (1 SBB and 1 MGB).

 

[Krokodil]

I had a cancellation of the Luzern S3 due to a fault once. That's all I can remember (anything delayed in Germany doesn't count)

 

[Beebman]

3 years ago I was travelling from Zürich Hbf to Brig when on departure there was an on-board announcement of an impending delay due to a 'track fault'. What actually happened was that the train was sent via the 'old' route instead of the Rothrist-Mattstetten high-speed line where presumably the fault lay. Arrival in Brig where my journey ended was about 20-25 minutes late, however the connecting Glacier Express had been held.

 

[RT4038]

My concern with your point is twofold. The first is that you haven't presented a causal mechanism for how "national culture" influences railway reliability. The second is that this is an extremely fatalistic attitude that seems to view the possibility of positive change as impossible, as we're locked into what the national culture gives us.

We (as in the British) are not going to start spending billions on increasing rail infrastructure (flyovers, loops, duplicate lines, enlarging stations for more platforms) or spare staff and rolling stock to meet every eventuality. British railway staff are not going to be clicking their heels on punctuality, nor resolving a century of adversarial industrial relations or putting service reliability foremost in their lives. Passengers are not going to be clicking their heels either, or adopting Swiss cultural norms in their general behaviour. (Each would like the other to do so of course, whilst being unable to themselves).

Just take a look through the pages of this Forum and, if you know anything about Swiss culture, you will see how far 'we' are apart from them in our outlook to life in general, financial, behavioural, attitudinal. That is not to say this a bad thing - we are just different.

 

[steple]

The whistle is blown about 20 seconds before departure to signal that the train is about to depart. The door is locked exactly when the clock springs to the next minute. The train then start rolling about 10–20 seconds later. The public timetable does not always reflect the running timetable. The public timetable is then always rounded to the last full minute (sometimes even more to get a nice symmetrical public timetable or signal urgency when boarding).

I took a video of this Swiss standard practice for long distance trains at Zurich Airport station:

 

[eldomtom2]

We (as in the British) are not going to start spending billions on increasing rail infrastructure (flyovers, loops, duplicate lines, enlarging stations for more platforms) or spare staff and rolling stock to meet every eventuality. British railway staff are not going to be clicking their heels on punctuality, nor resolving a century of adversarial industrial relations or putting service reliability foremost in their lives. Passengers are not going to be clicking their heels either, or adopting Swiss cultural norms in their general behaviour. (Each would like the other to do so of course, whilst being unable to themselves).

So because becoming exactly like the Swiss is impossible, there is nothing we can learn from them? I'm trying to understand what your point is because it's a bit vague.

 

[The exile]

So because becoming exactly like the Swiss is impossible, there is nothing we can learn from them? I'm trying to understand what your point is because it's a bit vague.

There is plenty we could learn from them but the vast majority (both of the general population and the subset of it working for the railways) will not be prepared to learn that lesson. That said - I was most impressed this morning when my 08.01 departure started moving with the station clocks showing 08.01.00. Doesn’t happen often!

 

[NCT]

I took a video of this Swiss standard practice for long distance trains at Zurich Airport station:

Interesting. Whistle right on the minute and wheel start almost 30 seconds past. Is this the normal practice? Would the working timetable (if such a thing exists) show a half-minute departure or a full-minute departure?

 

[RT4038]

So because becoming exactly like the Swiss is impossible, there is nothing we can learn from them? I'm trying to understand what your point is because it's a bit vague.

We know what is different between our railways and the Swiss railways. I expect our railway people have visited Switzerland and had official visits to the Swiss railways a plenty. There has even been TV programs comparing our railways with Swiss railways. It is not as if a few railway enthusiasts have recently discovered this wonderful railway system that works like clockwork and if only we just 'learnt lessons' from them........

I do realise that it can be quite difficult to understand the concept of British culture compared to Swiss culture - I mean in the way that they think, that they carry out their lives, their attitudes towards society in general, their history and their finances. I am not denigrating them at all, merely pointing out that there is a difference, which is how their railways are run very differently to ours. If you want a real insight into this, go and live and work in Switzerland, amongst the Swiss, and then you'll understand.

So what are the lessons to be learnt from them? Don't do the things that the UK has done in the last 150 years to allow us to spend a lot more on railway infrastructure. Don't organise your country and society in the way that we have since Norman times? Don't have an Empire spanning a quarter of the globe. Emulate Swiss culture and change everybody to think and work like the Swiss? It certainly isn't as easy as waving a magic wand and saying all the trains must run to time, and connect with each other etc etc. We've tried some of this with 'Right time railway' but without changing all the other parameters this only scratches the surface and has little overall effect. Are we really going to suddenly spend a bucket of money on 'just in case' infrastructure, equipment and staff, or what it would take to build in all that surplus to enable everything to connect with each other?

I don't know what specifics you are looking for? Maybe you can suggest some lessons that we can learn and would have any chance of successfully introducing here?

 

[NCT]

British culture is pretty fluid and across our railway network there's quite a range of practices. It's a double edged sword but it does mean there exists good practice at home that the rest of the country can gravitate towards. For example, passenger behaviour and operating practices are generally pretty tight on London Underground and even on NSE areas of National Rail, and I would say these are towards the top end of the European range. It's easy to exaggerate the doom and gloom.

In terms of general funding levels and infrastructure km / vehicle km ratio the UK isn't going to approach Swiss levels any time soon, but Switzerland isn't the only model around. I think the Dutch model is a more suitable one for the UK to follow. Partly because British stations tend not have the space for Swiss number of platforms or junction grade separation in comparable locations. Where they'll have 8 platforms (platform faces) we'd have 4, where they'd have 2 islands we'd just have 2 platform faces. This isn't the end of the world and there are ways to work with what we've got. Where the Swiss would dogmatically have everything at half-hourly frequencies and each service group having dedicated platforms for overlapping dwells around nodes, the Dutch would quite happily run combined 15-minute frequencies so the same number of trains can be shoved through fewer platforms. This does means some branches don't connect quite as well but 'inner' stations get the frequency bonus. The British timetable structure isn't a million miles from the Dutch one, we just need to apply the model more consistently and more rigorously. That's achievable with incremental improvement.

 

[The Pelican]

Ultimately, the UK runs one of the more impressive railway systems in Europe generally- we did well in the "New Infrastructure" funding in the report I linked to above, which is particularly impressive when the Victorians left us with a notably extensive network.

I think the main thing is for some reports to be written offering pairs of options, in each of which one option maximizes a reliable and connectional railway, and the other optimises for speed or frequency. The three options published for the Castlefield corridor, for example, were certainly the right sort of thing. I'm not a strong advocate either way of whether it would be a better way to spend money, but public discussions of what people cared about would help guide investment.

 

[Brubulus]

The UK does actually spend a lot on rail infrastructure. It's just that it provides very little return in comparison to the same investments outside the Anglosphere. Fundamentally, it's that their network is simpler, less congested and with more redundancy. Railway "culture" should be improved, but putting it into practise is easier said than done, though a concerted effort between GBR, unions, individual employees and passengers could help achieve it.

 

[eldomtom2]

It's just that it provides very little return in comparison to the same investments outside the Anglosphere. Fundamentally, it's that their network is simpler, less congested and with more redundancy.

I don't think these two things are necessarily linked though - a simpler network doesn't explain why HS2 is IIRC the most expensive HSR line per mile ever built.

 

[johncrossley]

The culture and general way of life of the UK and Switzerland (and much of the rest of the world) have tracked remarkably closely. Stevenson's Rocket was introduced between Liverpool and Manchester, yet both Switzerland and the UK built a nationwide network of railways as a result. Tim Berners Lee invented the internet, however both Switzerland and the UK introduced websites and both of them have largely replaced ticket office purchase with e-tickets. Both the UK and Switzerland decided to ban smoking inside trains. Just a few of the countless examples I could mention.

 

[mountainpixel]

Interesting. Whistle right on the minute and wheel start almost 30 seconds past. Is this the normal practice? Would the working timetable (if such a thing exists) show a half-minute departure or a full-minute departure?

The public timetable is rounded to the last full minute.

The driver has a "technical" timetable and it is divided by ⅒ minutes, so in 6 second increments.

This practice shown here is quite outdated as today departure confirmation is given to the driver via SMS and not trough the little orange box at the plattforms. Doors lock at the stated public departure time, so wheels start rolling a bit later.

 

[bahnause]

This practice shown here is quite outdated as today departure confirmation is given to the driver via SMS and not trough the little orange box at the plattforms. Doors lock at the stated public departure time, so wheels start rolling a bit later.

The next version of the departure process for trains with a guard (long-distance trains) will be introduced with the new timetable in December. Initially, this will only apply to the IR13 line. The guard will no longer give departure authorisation. Instead, the guards will check that boarding and alighting have been completed before boarding the train and removing the 'veto', which is automatically activated on their smartphone app and the train driver's tablet when the train enters the station. Once every guard has deactivated the 'veto' in the app, the 'Wait' message will disappear from the train driver's tablet. When the departure time is reached, the driver closes the doors and departs. Technically speaking, this is the same as for a DOO train. This procedure should save approximately 10 seconds per stop.

 

[Alpine Rider]

I have regularly used and met groups of skiers arriving on trains at Aigle Station on the Geneve - Lausanne - Brig Route.

They are almost always bang on time even with heavy snow and freezing temperatures. A major factor is the Swiss do not try to extract the last few percentage capacity from trains or infrastructure. They replace before fail. Their clockface timetables are also easy to comprehend and because they have built in recovery time into the timetable it usually runs like clockwork.

When it starts to creak is when major infrastrucure upgrades are needed. The route to Geneve is chronically overloaded at peak hours and they have been willing to fin and throw money at it - replacing single deck with high capacity double deck units but that has quickly been swallowed up as it has drawn in more commuters (as the parallel motorway around the north side of lac Leman is being widened with immense delays). They are very public transport supportive and spent milions of CHF on the Leman Express network tunnels linking the Swiss rail system to the French network via Annemasse. That too quickly became a victim of its success needing more duplex trains just to handle the growth. Their latest wheeze is to upgrade a freight only line to allow alternate leman Express services from the French side to run direct to the airport (where especially in winter there is massive demand) rather than having to travel through the chronically overloaded Geneva central station Cornavin. Once open - next year this will free platforms at Cornavin to allow extra services on the route to Lausanne and Brig.

Further ahead they are working with SNCF to reopen the ancient Ligne Tonkin route along the south shore of Lac Leman as RER Sud Leman. This will take alternate trains from Brig on a shorter and quicker route to Geneve and free up pathways on the most crowded section between Lausanne and Geneve.

To sum up the Swiss are willing to fully support their railways - the UK less so.

 

[furnessvale]

Perhaps this is the time to mentioned something I have said before.

When I worked on the railways in the late 1960s every few months we had a punctuality day when we tried to run the trains on time.

How everyone laughed when I said, "Aren't we supposed to do that every day".

 

[RT4038]

The culture and general way of life of the UK and Switzerland (and much of the rest of the world) have tracked remarkably closely. Stevenson's Rocket was introduced between Liverpool and Manchester, yet both Switzerland and the UK built a nationwide network of railways as a result. Tim Berners Lee invented the internet, however both Switzerland and the UK introduced websites and both of them have largely replaced ticket office purchase with e-tickets. Both the UK and Switzerland decided to ban smoking inside trains. Just a few of the countless examples I could mention.

Most countries in the world built a network of railways, some more nationwide than others. Obviously those that didn't build railways at all have no issue with punctuality and reliability of trains. Of those that did, few have a reputation of reliability and punctuality coming anywhere close to that of the Swiss, in spite of planning and issuing timetables in a very similar manner. I am not sure how internet sales of tickets or smoking in trains affects the punctuality and reliability of them.

 

[eldomtom2]

Of those that did, few have a reputation of reliability and punctuality coming anywhere close to that of the Swiss, in spite of planning and issuing timetables in a very similar manner.

Is that the case? Have there been comparative studies of timetable planning?

 

[The exile]

Most countries in the world built a network of railways, some more nationwide than others. Obviously those that didn't build railways at all have no issue with punctuality and reliability of trains. Of those that did, few have a reputation of reliability and punctuality coming anywhere close to that of the Swiss, in spite of planning and issuing timetables in a very similar manner. I am not sure how internet sales of tickets or smoking in trains affects the punctuality and reliability of them.

And none is really an example of “national culture”. Although you can debate until the cows come home the extent to which such a thing exists, it’s about the way members of society react to each other and to “principles”. So it’s things like how “authority” is viewed, the valuing of punctuality, the balance to be struck between the individual and the collective etc.

 

[johncrossley]

Most countries in the world built a network of railways, some more nationwide than others. Obviously those that didn't build railways at all have no issue with punctuality and reliability of trains. Of those that did, few have a reputation of reliability and punctuality coming anywhere close to that of the Swiss, in spite of planning and issuing timetables in a very similar manner. I am not sure how internet sales of tickets or smoking in trains affects the punctuality and reliability of them.

I was making the point that countries copy each other all the time.

 

[boiledbeans2]

[...]

20-odd years ago, the fashion was for “Japanese style reliability”, and mags like Modern Railways had reports of study visits. As a punter, all I now see are purchases from Hitachi whose availability suggests that the Japanese model may not be quite what it was presented as - or that the useful lessons were not absorbed.

[...]

Because they are not being operated by Japanese people, maintained by Japanese people and being used by Japanese people within the context of Japanese culture. Generally we expect a much higher standard from our fellow citizens than we are prepared to put in ourselves - our own punctuality and reliability is not good enough but we expect others to be exemplary. Our culture - how do we change that first?

Yes, see my post #45 and the following post #46 in this thread:

I See Spanish Trains (CAF), Japanese Trains (Hitachi) & Swiss Trains (Stadler): What Happened Britain?

I don't think those trains are "horrors" given that the 150, 158 and Networkers are all running still, with the 155, 319 and 321 operating with some modifications. If anything that's a sign of some robust trains. With the electrics you may have a point. But it's worth remembering that the 15x's...

www.railforums.co.uk

The first few Class 800s, fully built in Japan rarely give issues. The remainder of the fleet, assembled in UK (and Italy) are a different story.